BoM The Musical in SLC

[Analytics]

 

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

And observant and/or striving Latter-day Saints are doing the exact same to yours.  That ain't just a one-way street.  Just sayin'!

You are free to give any weight to my opinion that you want, regardless of the extent to which you are an observant and/or striving Latter-day Saint. I'm just saying that I give more weight to the opinions of people who saw the play, regardless of their religious affiliation. If you want to ignore the opinion of non-Mormons that's fine, but I don't think that's commensurate with ignoring the opinion of people who haven't seen the play.

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Kudos for what? Causing others to laugh at the opprobrious and insolent mocking of divinity and the sacred beliefs of a minority religion?  I think it is a sad commentary on society that this type of play, which sole purpose is to mock the sacred beliefs of others, receives any acclaim.  

Yes, this isn't "anything new" for these authors, should that somehow excuse any of it?

If this play is not directed at the Orthodox-LDS audience, then its purpose is to mock and laugh at them behind their back.

The play is about the internal conflicts that missionaries have as they try to fulfill their callings, and about the struggles of an African village that looks to religion for some guidance and help. In the end the religious beliefs that save the day are different and weirder than mainstream Mormon beliefs, and the audience gets that. The audience is left with the feeling that these guys are good people, and the idea that finding solutions to real-world problems through religion isn't all that bad.

That was my reaction to it, at least.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't find object rape with any object, let alone a Book of Mormon, ongoning and apparently endless baby rape, or FGM as all that humorous.

I hope you took my comment about hilarious as not sincere.

[Kenngo1969]

Apologies if this has already been posted in this fast-moving thread, but the Deseret News's Chris Hicks captures my own feelings about The Book of Mormon: The Musical and why I won't see it rather nicely: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865686278/6Book-of-Mormon7-musical-No-thanks-but-it7s-not-what-you-think.html

Edited August 7, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Calm, it is a musical, not a documentary.  I think you are judging a theatrical entertainment rather harshly.  I personally think musicals are not historically accurate in the least. If this was a documentary, you  would have a point.  Are we suppose to believe that "Chicago" is an accurate social comment on what was going on in Chicago at that time?  Is "Bye Bye Birdie" an accurate portrayal of Elvis  Presley's induction into the army?  Is "Pirates of Penzence" an accurate portrayal of a seaman's life?  I can't even think of a musical that portrays actual events in a factual way.  It is theater.

Which of the musicals you mentioned repeatedly use the most obscene words in our vocabulary and denigrate a religion and a race? Having performed in Birdie and Pirates, I'm curious how you would answer. Because it is theater does not excuse its excesses. As all theater, it is open to criticism.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

You have made your opinion known for the past 6 pages.  Is all I and others are saying is that perhaps your opinion is not the only opinion.  Yet when others, including the NYT gives their review of the play, you dismiss it as being unimportant.  What do they know about musical theater.  I guess it is that kind of attitude that I find disingenuous.  And quite frankly you loose just as much credibility with me when you say that you are basing your strong opinion about a play you have not seen because you have seen a production on it on YouTube.  Can you give other examples of YouTube musical productions that you found just as good as attending the theater yourself?  There is a reason people are willing to pay a couple of hundred dollars to see a performance that they could see on YouTube for free.

I am just trying to put your opinion in perspective here.  You certainly are entitled to think what you want about the play.  But I think it would be more fair if you acknowledged that you are at a bit of a disadvantage for not actually seeing the performance.    

It is my thread, after all. I dismiss them as being sadly misleading. The importance is that people actually defend the mess and call it brilliant, sweet, and inspiring. It is none of that. I have extensive experience with musical productions. I do not feel disadvantaged, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Could they have made their points without the obscenity and mockery? I think it would have been even more effective, but it wouldn't have titilated the modern audience, which is the point I have been making for 8 pages. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, thank goodness we got a traitor/mob boss/money launderer/human trafficker as president instead of someone who likes a musical you don't like.

Please don't derail with personal and political comments. I will ask to have you removed from the thread.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 I saw the play in Broadway (doesn't get better than that), it was a superb production & writing. Being an atheist I did enjoy the show, but It would bother me if I were TBM. But again this is one of the direct responses of Secular World's LDS proselytizing efforts. 

Yeah it does. Seeing just about any other musical on Broadway would be better. Superb is a description I would save for true greatness. Obscenity as a response to sharing a religion. OK.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't find object rape with any object, let alone a Book of Mormon, ongoning and apparently endless baby rape, or FGM as all that humorous.

Well, I wasn't going to bring that first one up because it is obscenity and mockery beyond any conceivable limits. I would like to hear the show's fans defend it. Somebody wanna take it on?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

I'm surprised anyone would claim that watching a video of a Broadway play is the same as being there and experiencing it in person.  There's no comparison (and I doubt that's what they're saying).

However, I do understand that watching a video, at least gives an overview or some information about what the play contains and what the storyline is.

I've seen the play and I loved it for the most part (the one musical number didn't really offend me, but I didn't enjoy it either).  

I actually saw the play with a group of active members (one who was in the bishopric and another one in stake leadership).  It came to town and many wanted to go see it, so a group went together.   I found that those who had served a mission (my husband included) loved the inside jokes and humor involving the missionaries in the play (much of it is really very funny).  I loved the music and the lyrics are very clever and funny (for the most part).

Is it for everyone?  Of course not!  Many members won't ever even view a movie that isn't G or PG. It's not for them.  But those who have gone and enjoyed the experience shouldn't be judged by someone who hasn't even seen it in person, IMO.  

Sad. The scene with the missionary being violated with Book of Mormon was particularly enjoyable? Did your active friends like that one? As a person who served a mission, I find just the thought incredibly offensive and disturbing. I had guns and other weapons pulled on me server all times, but this never happened to me. I truly do not comprehend this. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

Rest assured that I am giving your opinion on the matter all of the weight it deserves.

Ooooo. You got me there. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Fair enough...BTW the scene of "Joseph Smith American Moses" was one of my favorite  While the play does take some small historical license, it does provide the uninformed a fun quick catch up of Mormon foundational claims.  As I said earlier...who doesn't enjoy watching Joseph Smith singing and dancing

 

Edit to add: I was mistaken...I confused "Joseph Smith American Moses" with another song and dance routine "All American Prophet"  I enjoyed All American Prophet, where as "Joseph Smith American Moses" is rather crude...even the mission president in the show is offended. This particular scene is not among my favorite.

Well, I'm glad to hear that clarification. American Moses....did it get laughs or gasps?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

I'm surprised anyone would claim that watching a video of a Broadway play is the same as being there and experiencing it in person.  There's no comparison (and I doubt that's what they're saying).

Would you agree that seeing the movie "To Kill a Mockingbird" qualifies one to form an opinion about the work more than reading the book?

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sad. The scene with the missionary being violated with Book of Mormon was particularly enjoyable? Did your active friends like that one?  

I already stated above that was disturbing and unneccessary.  Does it sound like I thought it was enjoyable?

But overall, all in our group really enjoyed the play.  I can only report my experience, of course, and completely understand it is not for everyone.

Edited August 7, 2017 by JulieM

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I agree on the first one and both my husband and I found that part disturbing and unnecessary. 

Which, by the way, is the whole point of this thread.

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I already stated above that was disturbing and unneccessary.  Does it sound like I thought it was enjoyable?

Not in your original post, to which I was responding. Did it get laughs or gasps from the audience? In the video I watched it was met with laughing approval. Maybe if I were to watch it in hi-def 65" widescreen with Dolby surround sound I could get a better appreciation of its wonderfulness in real life.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[strappinglad]

I suppose that a theatre could be considered a " Great and Spacious Building " . Lehi's vision seems to be at least partially fulfilled .

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Apologies if this has already been posted in this fast-moving thread, but the Deseret News's Chris Hicks captures my own feelings about The Book of Mormon: The Musical and why I won't see it rather nicely: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865686278/6Book-of-Mormon7-musical-No-thanks-but-it7s-not-what-you-think.html

Well, I was going to write that, but he beat me to it. Kind of like Mahler's Symphony 4. I was gonna write that one too.

It's cleary and beautifully stated and precisely my sentiments. Perhaps it is a generational thing. I do get tired of fending off the ubiquitous f-words, excrement humor, and in-your-face body parts in our pop culture. It is a cheap crutch that masks a lack  of originality and indicates no talent. I heard all stuff that for years as a junior and senior high school teacher. One would hope producers and audiences could move on from that puerile nonsense, but instead they lap it up. Curiouser and curiouser.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

I suppose that a theatre could be considered a " Great and Spacious Building " . Lehi's vision seems to be at least partially fulfilled .

That thought has crossed my mind too.

[Daniel2]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Kudos for what? Causing others to laugh at the opprobrious and insolent mocking of divinity and the sacred beliefs of a minority religion?  I think it is a sad commentary on society that this type of play, which sole purpose is to mock the sacred beliefs of others, receives any acclaim.  

Yes, this isn't "anything new" for these authors, should that somehow excuse any of it?

If this play is not directed at the Orthodox-LDS audience, then its purpose is to mock and laugh at them behind their back.

In response to your question of "Kudos for what?" I would respond with this portion of my previous post, which are sentiments I agree with and for which I give the creators kudos:

...From my perspective, the creators are making the point that many of the deplorable conditions that the Africans have to live with day by day ARE inherently offensive to audience members (rampant violence, immorality, raping babies, female genital mutilation, etc) and they SHOULD be inherently offensive, but that sometimes, it's necessary to confront offensive topics in an effort to find ways to alleviate suffering, abuse, injustice, and the horrors that face inhabitants in some third-world countries, and in the face of the failure of political movements, religion has an inherent strength to help in such circumstances, and that no religious ideal is or should be so sacred or untouchable or non-adaptable that it can't or shouldn't be employed in an innovative, useful way to save human lives and/or end human suffering.

A better way of expressing it may be this:

"We believe in the worth and dignity of each human being. All people on earth have an equal claim to life, liberty, and justice — and no idea, ideal, or philosophy is superior to a single human life."

Elder Cunningham's employment of highly offensive 'alternative' (entirely made up) LDS history is all in the service of trying to stop raping babies, trying to stop female genital mutilation, trying to stop the shocking horrors of abuse, suffering, and destruction that are rampant in the community in which he finds himself.  He employs belief in the service of trying to do good... in doing so, he's offended a bunch of conservative members of his Faith back in Utah, but he's saving the lives and sexual wholeness of the villagers present around him---and that can be the power of belief, a main theme of the play.

There is more that I find valuable (not to mention enjoyable) from the play, but the above alone is worthy of props, in my view.

That said, I disagree with your assertion that this particular play's "sole purpose is to mock the sacred beliefs of others."  No, you've missed the points of the play, entirely.  In fact, many of the plays points are bigger than an one religion, entirely, and are applicable to beliefs across all religions.

And no, I am not, have not, and never have suggested that anyone "excuse" anything form of entertainment, political/social/religious commentary, humor, or satire that might offend your sensibilities.  Each of us is entirely empowered to not attend, change the channel, turn it off (ha!), and express our views to encourage thoughtful dialogue, and mutual understanding and respect--something for which I've applauded even those that I disagree with in this very thread.

Finally, I disagree that "the purpose" of any form of performance art featuring any particular group or person that isn't specifically targeted at a specific population is, by default, "laughing at them behind their back."  The creators certainly don't refuse admittance to active members of the LDS Faith, as others in this thread have demonstrated, and satirical performance art isn't subject to review by any given type of person, group, or organization for review, especially if/when it's seeking to make a commentary about a larger, even more universal point.

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Daniel2

[Bernard Gui]

One advantage to watching the video is you can rewind a section when you think "Did they really say that????"
Can't do that in a live show. Also, you can gauge the audience's reaction to the various provocative items.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please don't derail with personal and political comments. I will ask to have you removed from the thread.

Scott brought it up, not me.

[mnn727]

The older I get and the closer to the Savior I get, the more I have no desire to see or hear anything that pokes fun at my beliefs or my Savior. I have no desire whatsoever to see this show and I generally like musicals.

There is a show that I really like that in one episode took the Lords name in vain twice by the same character (a guest star, not the regular cast), It really bothered me especially since there really was not need for profanity at that point. 20 years ago it would have just brushed off of me, but no longer.

I really believe that poking fun at a person, their beliefs is bullying.  Using profanity is the symbol of a weak mind.

Edited August 7, 2017 by mnn727

[Daniel2]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

One advantage to watching the video is you can rewind a section when you think "Did they really say that????"
Can't do that in a live show. Also, you can gauge the audience's reaction to the various provocative items.

I'm curious... why did you subject yourself to watching the video of the play at all--not only in it's entirety, but even with multiple re-wind/s of the parts you find most shockingly offensive....?

I'm unaware of an authorized video of the play having been released... Has one been....?  If so, where did you find it?  If not, a pirated copy of copyrighted work would presumably be against the law, is it not...? (at least, that's the message I've gotten from members of this board condemning those that post authorized and clandestine videos of things like temple videos/ceremonies, church disciplinary counsels, and unauthorized Mormon Wikileaks videos and transcripts... not to mention that filming Broadway shows is prohibited).

Additionally, why the need to judge the wickedness of the "Great and Spacious" audience by gauging their reactions any further than you already obviously have...?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Daniel2

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I'm curious... why did you subject yourself to watching the video of the play at all--not only in it's entirety, but even with multiple re-wind/s of the parts you find most shockingly offensive....?

Why the need to judge the audience by gauging their reactions any further than you already obviously have...?

I think you can figure that one out for yourself, given the insistence of the show's fans here on actually seeing the mess before being able to comment on it, being told you don't know what you are talking about, or that you take things out of context. Not possible to do that with a live performance.  The libretto is also been available on line. Do you think there is something prurient or untoward in my behavior? How else would you suggest becoming familiar enough with the subject to be able to engage in debate about it? Attending multiple live performances? Seeing a performance once does not make one an expert, especially considering the emotional involvement of the audience in a live performance. 

Some have said the rape scene with the Book of Mormon was offensive and unnecessary, but the audience reaction in the video does not bear that out. What do you make of that?

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

The older I get and the closer to the Savior I get, the more I have no desire to see or hear anything that pokes fun at my beliefs or my Savior.

There is a show that I really like that in one episode took the Lords name in vain twice by the same character (a guest star, not the regular cast), It really bothered me especially since there really was not need for profanity at that point. 20 years ago it would have just brushed off of me, but no longer.

I really believe that poking fun at a person, their beliefs is bullying.  Using profanity is the symbol of a weak mind.

Thank you,.

26 minutes ago, Gray said:

Scott brought it up, not me.

Please don't perpetuate it.