Open Stories Foundation---Dehlin, Money, and compensation

[Calm]

Adding so people won't get shocked by being banned if they don't get to the specific request later on....

Because of multiple posts cluttering up the thread without information and analysis of the opening post and my other documentation, I have decided to go overly strict and limit conversation solely commentary or additional information on what is covered by my documentation and any other relevant documentation.  No comparisons to other organizations in this thread unless it is for the purpose of explaining legal procedures.  I believe another thread has been started for the purpose of discussing transparency in general, feel free to start more.  There is so much info here that people appear to be missing it, so please help keep it on target.

Thank you....

=========

Anyone else been following the conversation over various arenas (mainly Reddit and Facebook) triggered by a FB post by former OSF podcaster Kristy Money who alleges unfair or imbalanced treatment by John Dehlin?

-----

Sidebar:  I am really only interested myself in the stuff Kristy Money brought up and how Dehlin is responding to that, but in exploring to see if her claims had merit came across other stuff that provided context in my opinion.  It may come across as trying to smear Dehlin with anything I could get my hands on, but I left off a lot of stuff that was not documented or personal experience that went with an actual name and not just an alias.

-----

I am waiting on a request to mods to see how much crossposting is allowed, but there is one issue I looked at myself and would be curious if anyone has found additional info on.

Part of Dehlin's defense is that the OSF Board of Directors determines his salary (a base rate of 82,000ish last year plus health insurance and a likely 15% of his salary year end bonus if I have paid close enough attention, this year's base rate may be 92,000ish or that may be last year's base rate plus health insurance...didn't keep close enough track of numbers while reading to pull it out of memory).

The board issued a statement supporting Dehlin, etc.

It was signed by several people with their positions identified, but the board itself was just "Board of Directors".  

Quote

"Craig Woodfield, CPA, Director and Treasurer 
OSF Board of Directors
John Dehlin, OSF CEO
Amy Grubbs, OSF Director of Operations
Cody Layton, OSF Project Manager"

Of course that made me curious, so I looked elsewhere on their website and in any of Dehlin's communications to find out who was on the board.  Nothing, including no response to someone asking him the question on a Reddit board he was posting on.

{Add-on:  it is possible to read that Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton are now on the board with Dehlin, but nowhere else is there any hint that they are on the board or that there has been a change in the board from what it was when it was established that I recall seeing, so am assuming that the "Board of Directors" is in addition to Dehlin being listed as CEO (so he is both Vice President in the Board and CEO if I get it, in essence he is listed twice in this statement).}

Eventually I found it in a generic service of lists of various boards, this below provides more detail about finances so using this one instead.

This puts his claim 'the board decides' in a somewhat different light.  Before I figured influence, loyalty to the founder kind of thing, but this would appear to have him voting on it as well.

He could have come out and said he was a board member, but recuses himself on anything that impacts him financially, but he didn't.  So that makes me think he likely doesn't.  However, if anyone has come across better info, I would be very interested to hear of this.

https://missionandvision.org/nonprofit/272026793/open-stories-foundation-inc/overview

Quote

 

Board of Directors

Governing board for each of tax years 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 .

In tax year: 2015

• Natasha Parker (PRESIDENT)
• John Dehlin (VICE PRESIDENT)
• Dan Wotherspoon (DIRECTOR)

 

•  

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Anyone else been following the conversation over various arenas (mainly Reddit and Facebook) triggered by a FB post by former OSF podcaster Kristy Money who alleges unfair or imbalanced treatment by John Dehlin?

I am waiting on a request to mods to see how much crossposting is allowed, but there is one issue I looked at myself and would be curious if anyone has found additional info on.

Part of Dehlin's defense is that the OSF Board of Directors determines his salary (a base rate of 82,000ish last year plus health insurance and a likely 15% of his salary year end bonus if I have paid close enough attention, this year's base rate may be 92,000ish or that may be last year's base rate plus health insurance...didn't keep close enough track of numbers while reading to pull it out of memory).

The board issued a statement supporting Dehlin, etc.

It was signed by several people with their positions identified, but the board itself was just "Board of Directors".  

"Craig Woodfield, CPA, Director and Treasurer 
OSF Board of Directors
John Dehlin, OSF CEO
Amy Grubbs, OSF Director of Operations
Cody Layton, OSF Project Manager"

Of course that made me curious, so I looked elsewhere on their website and in any of Dehlin's communications to find out who was on the board.  Nothing, including no response to someone asking him the question on a Reddit board he was posting on.

Eventually I found it in a generic service of lists of various boards, this below provides more detail about finances so using this one instead.

This puts his claim 'the board decides' in a somewhat different light.  Before I figured influence, loyalty to the founder kind of thing, but this would appear to have him voting on it as well.

He could have come out and said he was a board member, but recuses himself on anything that impacts him financially, but he didn't.  So that makes me think he likely doesn't.  However, if anyone has come across better info, I would be very interested to hear of this.

https://missionandvision.org/nonprofit/272026793/open-stories-foundation-inc/overview

 

"Board of Directors

Governing board for each of tax years 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 .

In tax year: 2015

• Natasha Parker (PRESIDENT)
• John Dehlin (VICE PRESIDENT)
• Dan Wotherspoon (DIRECTOR)"

I'm still unclear what the conflict is here. Is the claim that the board was ill-used by Dehlin?

[Calm]

Working on it, Scott:

The above post was getting long and formatting screwed up so part 2.

Got permission to quote stuff from Facebook, I may do some from Reddit as well, but cannot link to the latter due to language.

What started the discussion and my interest was this post by Dr. Kristy Money:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10103460577002919&id=17827025

Quote

 

Since I left the Open Stories Foundation in late 2016, a lot of people have asked me what happened. I have deliberated for months on what to say and how to say it—I have tried repeatedly to express my concerns privately to both John Dehlin and OSF to no avail. So even in the midst of painful morning sickness with baby #5 and cross-country family move fog, I feel it’s time to publicly call on Dr. Dehlin to release detailed OSF financials for 2016 and annually in perpetuity. Especially if he is going to continue to assert that OSF is on a shoestring budget and he is not unduly profiting from it financially (i.e. inurement). Here are the concerns I have based on my experience:

-In late 2016, OSF completely revamped their pay structure for podcasters so that, while Dr. Dehlin continues to draw a regular base salary as CEO--with further unknown financial benefit from co-hosting podcasts with members of his household, collecting speaking fees for retreats, and performance bonuses--podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that OSF is based in Utah, a right-to-work state). This change also coincides with the first year that OSF has not been transparent about its finances and the substantially large retreats began. 

-Moderators who donate hours upon hours per week of their own time to moderate official OSF groups and funnel/support members into his organization have been invited to OSF banquets, but only if they pay for their food. 

-I have come to know many individuals who were never paid by Dr. Dehlin for professional services they did for him personally and OSF as an organization that they were promised. For my own time and travel to speak at a NYC OSF retreat, I was only comped for my flight—and only after sending 5+ reminder emails over 3 months. 

-I was present when individuals who work for Dr. Dehlin have been brought to tears from how he treated them for privately (in a very small group) expressing concerns about his behavior. Our witnessing their treatment seemed to me a warning that we would be treated similarly if he perceived our loyalty to be lacking. 

I have seen OSF’s work be a force for good in the lives of people I care about, like my dear husband. At the same time, especially in light of recent events (like John’s organizing of luxury retreats in the Bahamas and Australia) and his demand for loyalty and not answering for his behavior when approached privately, I regrettably must do this publicly. If Dr. Dehlin continues to criticize the church saying that it’s not financially transparent, a non-profit that acts like a for-profit, not helping those in need with excess funds that are instead put elsewhere (details unknown), etc., then it’s important that he hold his own non-profit institution to the same standard. When I was deliberating whether or not to stay with OSF last Nov. when issues between John and Kate Kelly unfolded, both John and the OSF board told me that we can’t let John’s reputation risk tarnishing, because if that happens, “the Church wins.” I don’t feel comfortable giving a pass and allowing an institutional culture like that within OSF leadership. Encouragement from the top to give problematic behavior from leaders “a break” sounds too familiar. My only goal is for this open letter to Dr. Dehlin to lead to positive change. I hope it will.

 

 

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There were a couple of remarkable comments in the midst of mostly supportive or disapproving chatter.  One was from a now former moderator of the MS forums.  I say "now former" because shortly after she posted of her own experiences in a civil tone, Dehlin removed her as a mod and blocked her from the site.

I will try and locate these.   

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

So he is being cheap and ripping off those who work with him to live on only about $92,000 a year? That is kind of pathetic and sad. C'mon Dehlin! If you are going to sell out have some dignity about it and go after real money.

[Calm]

In looking for the Board of Directors info, I have found that finances of OSF has attracted attention for sometime, including concern that it was established primarily to give Dehlin a salary so he could support his family while doing the work...not an unworthy idea if one appreciated what he was doing, but likely not really a charitable mission.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2015/02/09/does-open-stories-foundation-qualify-as-tax-exempt/

While Dehlin was open about needing a salary back when he restarted his involvement in podcasting, it would appear that over half of their income goes to him as salary, benefits, and bonus.

From the info link .I had in the first post:

Quote

It had revenue of $198,136.00 and expenses $152,713.00 between January 2015 and December 2015 Open Stories Foundation Inc started 2015 with $38,443.00 in assets, and finished it with $83,866.00

---

From commonconsent:

Quote

 

The answer: it’s complicated. (In fact, this question alone demonstrates the importance of good tax advice.) It’s complicated because there is no clear standard; instead, it’s a fact-and-circumstances inquiry, where the court essentially takes a holistic approach. The case law points to the following criteria, among other things, in deciding whether compensation constitutes private inurement:

Benefits to an insider at the charity can constitute private inurement.[fn3]

Constant, significant increase in compensation, irrespective of entity revenue or amount of work performed.[fn4]

Significant control over the tax-exempt entity (including a significant say in setting one’s own compensation).[fn5]

The compensation is in line with compensation at comparable charities. (Note that it is the charity’s responsibility to provide comparability reports; even if it had a disinterested board approve the compensation, without those objective reports, it is hard to prove that compensation is reasonable.)[fn6]

How does OSF fare on this? John Dehlin is clearly an insider—he founded OSF and serves as its vice-president. His compensation has increased materially over the last four years, and has done so irrespective of the amount of donations received...

Moreover, Dehlin is one of three board members; though I don’t know the details, I would assume he has a significant say in his compensation.

As for the compensation of comparable individuals: this is where actual legal and tax advice would come in really handy. Dehlin’s annual salary has never been less than 25% of OSF’s annual revenues, and has been as high as 66%. I’ve done a quick search for tax-exempts in the religious area with revenue of between $100,000 and $500,000 a year, and the closest I’ve seen is in the 25% range, but my search hasn’t been exhaustive by any means. Still, unless OSF has comparability data, even if the board setting compensation were independent, the salary would look like private inurement.[fn8]

Also weighing against OSF’s claim to be a tax-exempt organization: it seems to have been formed for the purpose of supporting Dehlin. The Tribune article quotes Dehlin as he’s forming the tax-exempt organization as essentially selling OSF as a way to support him in exchange for his producing Mormon Stories:

“Your donations will go toward tuition, groceries, insurance and any other expenses I incur,” the podcaster told them. “What I’ll give back is building resources to meet your needs."

That seems to reflect his mindset: in 2010, he wrote:

"Back in the summer of 2010 I made a deal w/ the listeners.  If enough of you would sign up for monthly financial donations to Mormon Stories , I would promise to release a quality episode each week.  The way that I was able to make this happen as a super busy Clinical Psychology Ph.D. student was to turn down other paid assistantships and do Mormon Stories as my part time job while in school.  While the money in no way covers my family’s annual expenses, it does help us pay for things like health insurance, groceries, etc."

The problem with this: supporting Dehlin—or any other individual—is not a charitable endeavor, and does not qualify for deductible donations. Section 501(c)(3) was designed with public, not private, good in mind.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Dehlin states on Reddit that directors are not compensated.  The other two board members, however, are also podcasters (one is President and may get a salary, haven't seen any info on that yet, but why would a .VP be paid and not a P?) and get compensated that way.

Iirc, Dehlin said the board determined the podcasting compensation package, but he may have said Directors, which would include more than just the Board, all of who are podcasters themselves and thus if only they were involved, were deciding their own rates (base pay same for all podcasters and then additional pay based on number of downloads, originally It was just number of downloads, which favored the more popular, longer going podcasts, which happened, I believe, to be men.

Just as an FYI for those like myself wondering about this in the past, apparently Dehlin reported this elsewhere and it was shared on Reddit by a supporter.

Quote

John's full time job is OSF. He has coaching that he does 1-2 hours a week outside of OSF.

On the tax returns, it is reported his average work week is 50 hours.  This would include retreats (as these are included in his salary) it would seem.  Possible other work would be speaking engagements (though this isn't for certain, he could be receiving compensation for this elsewhere), time spend on social media as well as his podcasting.

Anyone pay attention to how much podcasting he does these days?  I understand he goes for hours per podcast and there appears to be no editing (beyond adding music perhaps?).

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Back to my main interest...his reported treatment a number of female colleagues, from FB in no particular order at this point:

Joanna S (she gave her name but is not a major player, so not posting it fully here)

Quote

This situation has been exactly one year in the making. It is LONG overdue. I personally know of at least a dozen women that went to John privately to bring up problematic things that were said or done by him while he was acting as OSF ED towards women in the community. Some were simple (don't comment on someone else's body/breasts/dress PERIOD) some were painful (please don't interrupt or dismiss or play 'devils advocate' to women's sexual/physical abuse experiences) and some were full fledged profiting and taking advantage of women (please pay your women podcasters EQUALLY, as you have your male podcaster for years) --- ALL OF THESE WOMEN went to John and close friends first. ALL OF THESE WOMEN hoped that John would learn and apologize and grow because everyone understands that coming from a patriarchal culture takes time to untangle... I personally sat with him and told him that it could be an easy fix if he's willing to apologize and actually start treating women better by certain actions. He responded by asking for loyalty-- it was completely inappropriate and I STILL gave him the benefit of the doubt and hoped he would LEARN.

----

The former moderator who was still a moderator when she posted this a few hours ago:

Alyson Draper:

Quote

I am among the group of moderators who spends close to 400 hours a year each moderating Mormon Stories Podcast--as a volunteer. 

I appreciate Kristy's putting in a word for OSF moderators. I was very offended to not even be invited to the OSF Banquet. I was more offended when John later thought about it and opined we might be able to come next year if we would pay for our own dinners. 

Who does John think manages these groups from which he pulls his support? Why does he not afford any appreciation or respect to the moderators of his groups?  

Being a moderator is a really thankless job anyway. We get pinged at all hours of the night to resolve dramas created by 9500+ members in Mormon Stories. I stay only because I want to be of service to those transitioning out of the church, and because I love the group's members, and not because I hold anything for John Dehlin personally. 

In fact, John has made me want to quit more than once. His business management skills are, in my professional opinion, terrible. For example, more than once, after MSPC moderators spent a whole day resolving questions related to specific members and their group-related issues. John has, in the past, the next day or the next week, demanded a full accounting of what was done because the individual member involved will tattle directly to John. He will often promise the member who was sanctioned by the moderator group a different result without even knowing the situation. He makes us recount the entire situation in bullet points, rather than read the lengthy threads where the moderators spent all day discussing the issues. 

We just don't get paid enough to have to spend even more extra time because John is too busy to read. His schedule is no more important than any moderator's. And he, unlike us, gets paid to work for OSF. 

I have to say I did try to take it up with a John from a point of view of an MBA and managerial insight. John had been better since then to defer to the moderator team. 
However, John decided that nobody on the moderator team has enough skill to be an Administrator of the group. We apparently can't be trusted with the keys to the page. What organization does this sound like? John delegated the Administrator role to a new hire who knows nothing about how to run the group. That was nothing short of insulting to those of us who do actually run the group and have done so for years. 

To the moderators who collectively spend thousands of hours each year moderating the group, John said nothing about this decision. We found out when when we could no longer change the group cover photo by ourselves anymore without asking John or his new hire. 

The top-heavy management of OSF is, in my professional opinion, very poor. I think John's need to control everything will likely be his own personal downfall, as well as OSF's. 

Even now, all JD would need to do is admit he has erred on the past with compensation issues and managerial decisions, apologize, and promise to do better in the future. That's all anyone is asking for. 

Like Dallin Oaks, John Dehlin does not apologize. He blocks people and effectively excommunicates them for bringing up these issues. The way he treated Kristy Money and Kate Kelly was reprehensible. I don't think Kate's approach was the greatest, I believe those who say that nothing else worked. Such has been my experience with John, who often seems above answering his messages and working out problems. 

About the same time as the blow out regarding Kristy's compensation and Kaye Kelly's advocacy, I was offended that John was looking to hire a full time person who could work from home to manage OSF. That person would almost certainly be a woman. The pay was a paltry $30k a year to do the job of at least someone with Bachelors in some business field. Although non-profits don't pay the greatest, it was no excuse for paying yet another woman a really sad salary compared to what John draws from the OSF. 

I do believe in the Open Stories product and the service it provides. However, John, you need to do better at delegating and nurturing the other professionals who make it so you can do your part. You may have the name recognition, but there are many professionals in the background supporting you that you very much abuse by using people who work for you for unfair compensation, or none at all in the case of one person who has worked for you for years without payment (referring to someone else, not myself here). 

I'm sorry to say this in public, but I've repeatedly written you without acknowledgement to discuss my well-founded observations with you. I offered you the free analysis of a qualified MBA, in an effort to grow and strengthen OSF, but you would never answer.

In my opinion, you also need to take some public speaking classes. You do not have the speaking skills that would make you seem more polished and prepared. You sell yourself and OSF short because your colloquialisms get in the way of the message. 

It would also be a huge improvement if you would learn to get the first part of every podcast on air and everyone at the table before you go live. As it is, most podcasts seem very amateurish at the beginning as we all sit around waiting for you to get the media worked out. 

My expectation is that this constructive criticism will be ignored and I will be viewed as out of line for bringing any of this up. As I said, I've tried to give you the free MBA analysis, but you've been unwilling to converse. I contribute to OSF, and I have a stake in your improving the product. 

I support Kristy Money, and find it a shame that a psychologist could not work through the issues necessary to retain her fairly at OSF. I stand behind her in her fair request for specific transparency, and think that John's claims in his defense today are disingenuous and reflective of the kind of response we have grown to expect from John Dehlin and OSF.

 

From Dehlin to the now former moderator:

Quote

Alyson - A few things. 1) I'm very, very grateful for all the work you've put into the MoSto podcast community. Truly. 2) I completely agree that I've been totally neglectful of you guys, and I sincerely apologize for it. 3) Last month you wrote above, "Thanks for everything you do for the lost souls of Mormonism." I suspect you meant it. I want you to know that if I have been neglectful, it's not out of ingratitude, but instead because of the incredible burden and commitment it has been to do the things I've done over the years, and continue to do. If I'm guilty of anything, it's trying to do too much with too little resources to manage. 4) The stuff you wrote about me on Kristy's wall is deeply disturbing and saddening to me. Not because you have criticisms. I get those daily, 360 degrees. I genuinely welcome constructive feedback. Anyone around me will tell you that. But the lack of understanding/empathy, and the viciousness of your attacks were incredibly saddening to me. 5) I can't see how it makes sense for you to remain a mod after writing those things publicly about me, and about the OSF. I'm sure you knew that when you wrote them. So we will need to part ways. But unlike others, I couldn't cut ties without letting you know how sincerely grateful I am for all the work you've done for the group. Wishing you well. Sorry again for disappointing you. I take responsibility for not managing things better with regards to mods, but your comments crossed a line for anyone I could ever call a friend, or an OSF supporter. Take care, Alyson

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

Dehiin's kiss-off of Alyson says it all, and his whole charade, from pretending to be Mr Good-guy, to refusing to recuse himself, to lack of financial transparency, merely falls into line with his effort to censor something written about him years ago -- a complete lack of a strong ethical and moral sense.  A less grandiose version of Donald Trump, indubitably.

[Calm]

So to summarize what I have been reading for the past two days, Dehlin and the Open Stories Foundation seem to need to answer claims and accusations dealing with among other things:

Not being fully transparent about how his salary comes about (board of which he has 33% voting),

How his salary compares to others,

Differences between men and women getting compensation and other treatment,

How it came about that his wife got to be a podcaster and her income,

Donations believed to go directly to a particular podcast being put into the general funds (a constant complaint against the Church among critics that I have seen),

Making commitments to pay and then only giving less than said or none at all (for both women and men),

Lack of recognition of volunteers who contributed hundreds of hours to the cause (moderators were initially not invited to dinners, if I understood correctly, but when complained about he changed it to allowing them to come if they paid for it themselves...no other consideration such as a discount to retreats or other events) as well as no respect given to their position in that he, without consultation, hired an inexperienced admin to replace them and blocking their previous admin access without notice,

Continually hiding behind the board and others when info is not timely or commitments not met,

Catering to upper class white men in podcasts (most of his guests are well off white men, he goes for celebrity guests rather than the typical struggling exmormon and yet he claims to be reaching out to them) as well as retreats (scholarships are reported for those who cannot afford it, but a few favored ones when tens or hundreds of others could come if in the middle of cities rather than Park City, Australia, cruises, etc. instead)...

Also accusations of stealing 'the mic' ( attention) from women and LGBTs when it comes to podcasts allegedly featuring them and their events. (I noticed this myself with an event he attended that was in support of OW.

If someone else is paying attention and I have missed any, please post.

I am not claiming that these are all merited, but given that many of these claims have been made over a few years' time plus the documentation on his salary versus income of the charity and his being one third of the board he constantly appeals to as the decider of all the important issues, I think he needs to provide some substance to counter many of these to continue to be credible that he is not letting the power go to his head, but that he is a true ally in the feminist and other causes and not just self promoting for the most part.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So he is being cheap and ripping off those who work with him to live on only about $92,000 a year? That is kind of pathetic and sad. C'mon Dehlin! If you are going to sell out have some dignity about it and go after real money.

Yep, and that is just the point.  OSF is not the holy Order of Saint Francis (of Assisi), but is a nascent cult reminiscent of Peoples Temple or Scientology, in which the leader demands unquestioning loyalty.  The real money comes when he converts the organization into a church (tax-deductible charitable contributions aplenty, with no taxes for the organization), with himself as the maximum, clerical leader.  Trump's IRS no longer questions such nonsense.

[Calm]

hmmm...just caught this when I reread the OSF statement from Parker:

Quote

 (I was a board member for several years)

So if she is no longer a board member, who is?  Obviously Dehlin was a board member up till 2015, but was he in 2016 and now?

[Calm]

from the 2015 reports of income and expense...

Mormon Matters pulled in 29,757.07 and expensed at 35,367.11 (contract services were 35,364.61, is this what was paid the podcaster who is Dan Wotherspoon iirc)

Mormon Mental Health (Parker) pulled in 2,052.93 and got 5,877.30.

Mormon Studies pulled in 98.86 and cost 1,184.88 

Thoughtful Faith (Colvin) pulled in 2,775.77 and contract services were 4,824.43.

Mormon Stories pulled in 135,278.40 and got 91,308.20 for contract services and 5100 for meals, 2000 for cell phone, 2000 for computers, 1000 for travel and some more for other expenses totaling 104,614.43, so it appears to have pulled in more donations than it costs unlike the others....but that is only if I am reading something I have no clue how to read correctly.

Kristy Money's podcast was Mormon Transitions, now hosted by Dehlin and his wife, with no sign of Money's podcasts on the OSF site, though her podcasts appear to be on her own site now.  Not sure when the podcast started though.  Maybe Oct 2015, though there is one lonely slot for it in the 2015 report (0.00 paypal)

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

Mormonleaks will get right on this. 

[strappinglad]

24 minutes ago, juliann said:

Mormonleaks will get right on this. 

That deserves at least one emoticon. How about  ?

[strappinglad]

And the critics like to focus on Joseph's early ' treasure seeking ' , my my .

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So he is being cheap and ripping off those who work with him to live on only about $92,000 a year? That is kind of pathetic and sad. C'mon Dehlin! If you are going to sell out have some dignity about it and go after real money.

That's true.  92K is not even small living stipend.

[juliann]

You guys must live high.  $92K plus perqs, benefits and year end bonuses is chump change in Utah? Was not the point of the whistle blowing to inform people that money is not being accounted for?

It is encouraging to see a single standard applied, however, especially after the ruckus over GA pay. So kudos for that. 

[sjdawg]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So he is being cheap and ripping off those who work with him to live on only about $92,000 a year? That is kind of pathetic and sad. C'mon Dehlin! If you are going to sell out have some dignity about it and go after real money.

I'm not a supporter of Dehlin but I think it is premature to say he is cheap and  ripping people off.  

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

And the critics like to focus on Joseph's early ' treasure seeking ' , my my .

I"m not certain how the two issues are related.  

[Storm Rider]

Humans have a real knack for creating a standard of judgment for "those people" over there, but seldom, if ever, apply the same standard to themselves.  As I read this thread I agree with Robert F. Smith; Dehlin smacks of a cult leader. 

I find it strange that he his response to consistent issues seems to be to question everyone's loyalty and friendship.  Then there is the pity me syndrome - I am doing such a great, important work, you even said so fifteen years ago on Wednesday night a 11:30 p.m. as you going out the door.  I am just so overwhelmed and, gosh, I am criticized from all quarters.  You have now criticized me and so you must not be my friend.  

Playground manipulation, self-centered, egotist.  Humans, and Dehlin is certainly human, cannot see himself.  That glass house you are living in?  Yeah, might be time to not throw rocks at Mormonism, Joseph, or anyone else.  

[sjdawg]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Humans have a real knack for creating a standard of judgment for "those people" over there, but seldom, if ever, apply the same standard to themselves.  As I read this thread I agree with Robert F. Smith; Dehlin smacks of a cult leader. 

I find it strange that he his response to consistent issues seems to be to question everyone's loyalty and friendship.  Then there is the pity me syndrome - I am doing such a great, important work, you even said so fifteen years ago on Wednesday night a 11:30 p.m. as you going out the door.  I am just so overwhelmed and, gosh, I am criticized from all quarters.  You have now criticized me and so you must not be my friend.  

Playground manipulation, self-centered, egotist.  Humans, and Dehlin is certainly human, cannot see himself.  That glass house you are living in?  Yeah, might be time to not throw rocks at Mormonism, Joseph, or anyone else.  

I'm not sure who would be in this cult.  I'm not certain Dehlin has as many followers as people think but I could be wrong.  All I know is that although he has some occasional interviews that I find interesting, most of his work doesn't interest me at all.  I'd certainly never donate to what he is doing and I think his popularity is waning.

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

That's true.  92K is not even small living stipend.

It is a chunk of change but you can make that doing honest work.

47 minutes ago, juliann said:

You guys must live high.  $92K plus perqs, benefits and year end bonuses is chump change in Utah? Was not the point of the whistle blowing to inform people that money is not being accounted for?

It is encouraging to see a single standard applied, however, especially after the ruckus over GA pay. So kudos for that. 

I don't make quite that much but it seems a low salary to sell your integrity for. My morals cost about a quarter of a million a year if anyone is interested.  

34 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I'm not a supporter of Dehlin but I think it is premature to say he is cheap and  ripping people off.  

I disagree but then I really dislike the guy and I could be biased. I listened to one of his podcasts and found his presentation very oily and smarmy.

Plus he has an incredibly punchable face:

I mean, he almost looks as smug as Ted Cruz, Michael Moore, and Steven Miller but not quite. Gives me an urge to pop him one.

[juliann]

 Nehor, go do your home teaching. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by juliann

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

 Nehor, go do your home teaching. 

I spent half the day with the missionaries and now I have to do my Home Teaching too?

This exaltation thing is hard.  

It better be worth it.............

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Dehiin's kiss-off of Alyson says it all, and his whole charade, from pretending to be Mr Good-guy, to refusing to recuse himself, to lack of financial transparency, merely falls into line with his effort to censor something written about him years ago -- a complete lack of a strong ethical and moral sense.  A less grandiose version of Donald Trump, indubitably.

Passive aggressive, manipulative grandstanding garbage.  As you say, that message says it all about who he is as a person.  Total jerk who thinks he is a star and therefore can do anything he likes to anyone he feels like it, and then charm his way out of it.  Yuck.