Open Stories Foundation---Dehlin, Money, and compensation

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, rpn said:

Churches are a whole different ballgame for the constitutional reason that our liberty happens because we can freely worship, and taxation by government will  necessarily curtail that religious freedom.   It is really silly to suggest that OSF and any church should operate in the same structure and expectations.

Your seem to be suggesting that OSF should be held to a higher standard of both operation and transparency than the Church.  Interesting.

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

It has been enlightening to see the efforts to change the topic. The LDS Church's financials are a diversion from the issue at hand.... with the exception that OSF brought the church into it by demanding a standard it is not upholding itself. 

It's also enlightening to see those who argue that the Church cannot be transparent (because critics would pick apart the financial statements) pick apart OSF because it is transparent.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It's also enlightening to see those who argue that the Church cannot be transparent (because critics would pick apart the financial statements) pick apart OSF because it is transparent.

We're projecting.  

I do agree that those of us who don't like the hyenas crying for the kill when it comes to Church finances should avoid the temptation to indulge in Schadenfreude when it comes to the Church's enemies. That same judgment with which ye judge, and all that . . . 

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Your seem to be suggesting that OSF should be held to a higher standard of both operation and transparency than the Church.  Interesting.

Isn't that what OSF said about itself though?  That it would not just do what was legal (which is what the church does), but that it would provide complete transparency?  It seems fair to hold OSF to a higher standard if they set it for themselves, and also if they are judging the church for not meeting that higher standard.

From what i've read (which hasn't been a lot), this transparency hasn't been forthcoming and some of his once-very loyal followers are upset about that.  Dehlin, for example, shares what his base pay is but does not share how much he actually costs the non-profit (that would include base pay, bonuses, and benefits at least).

Edited May 22, 2017 by bluebell

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It's also enlightening to see those who argue that the Church cannot be transparent (because critics would pick apart the financial statements) pick apart OSF because it is transparent.

I don't see anyone picking apart OSF because of it's transparency.  Calm has specifically said that she doesn't care what Dehlin get's paid.  I don't care what he gets paid either.  I may have missed some posts, but mostly i've seen people discussing the charges that OSF has not been as transparent as it said it would be.

 

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Isn't that what OSF said about itself though?  That it would not just do what was legal (which is what the church does), but that it would provide complete transparency?  It seems fair to hold OSF to a higher standard if they set it for themselves, and also if they are judging the church for not meeting that higher standard.

From what i've read (which hasn't been a lot), this transparency hasn't been forthcoming and some of his once-very loyal followers are upset about that.  Dehlin, for example, shares what his base pay is but does not share how much he actually costs the non-profit (that would include base pay, bonuses, and benefits at least).

Yes, I think that OSF does hold itself to a higher standard than the Church (when it comes to financial transparency).  I was inquiring about rpn's opinion.

I haven't seen anything that shows OSF has failed to meet its standard of transparency.  It seems that most commenting here haven't bothered to look at the financial statements OSF published.  For example you said above:  "Dehlin, for example, shares what his base pay is but does not share how much he actually costs the non-profit (that would include base pay, bonuses, and benefits at least)."  And yet, the financial statements do provide this information.

[Gray]

I don't really have a horse in the fight or a dog in the race (:p) but I know on Guidestar, which tracks not-for-profit financial informations, 990 filings are typically a couple of years delayed, for whatever reason. 

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't see anyone picking apart OSF because of it's transparency.  Calm has specifically said that she doesn't care what Dehlin get's paid.  I don't care what he gets paid either.  I may have missed some posts, but mostly i've seen people discussing the charges that OSF has not been as transparent as it said it would be.

 

Yes, people keep tossing out "charges" just like you did in the post that I responded to.  Your charge was demonstrably false.  Nobody else seems to be able to provide any evidence that OSF has failed to be transparent, just allegations.

[blueglass]

Open stories is a non profit, operating on a small budget, and hopefully it can fix the problems if and when John gets a different job.  I'm a little surprised that the people who are interviewed are not paid for the interview?  Maybe I'm nieve here?  I thought they (interviewees) were paid $500 or something for the 3hr interview?  I suppose if the donors of open stories don't like the disparity in compensation they could withdraw and vote with their feet.  Perhaps like with the lds humanitarian aid or charities, a donor could "gift" to open stories, and set the qualification for receipt of the gift that it go 100% to the female professionals providing counseling services?  

One way to analyze is to compare the JD salary at 92k, with the services and benefits you receive from your paid local general authority seventy.  It was leaked that the salary of the general authority seventies is ~$120k/year, which includes all of the men. https://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng  I have no idea if the women in leadership of the primary, young women, or relief society presidencies are paid anything more than travel expenses for their full-time labor?  Anyone know?  For the lds church employees, byu professors, for-profit enterprises is there gender disparity in salary/compensation?  Waiting for Quinn's 3rd book to come out, maybe he discusses this.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by blueglass
donors, gifts

[RevTestament]

Just now, rockpond said:

Yes, people keep tossing out "charges" just like you did in the post that I responded to.  Your charge was demonstrably false.  Nobody else seems to be able to provide any evidence that OSF has failed to be transparent, just allegations.

Personal testimony of volunteers and employees is valid evidence in every court in the U.S.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

Personal testimony of volunteers and employees is valid evidence in every court in the U.S.

it's valid evidence -- to be evaluated and judged.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yes, people keep tossing out "charges" just like you did in the post that I responded to.  Your charge was demonstrably false.  Nobody else seems to be able to provide any evidence that OSF has failed to be transparent, just allegations.

How is it demonstrably false?  Dehlin has not disclosed anything other than his base pay, has he?  And he admits that he gets bonuses and benefits.  What am i not understanding?

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yes, I think that OSF does hold itself to a higher standard than the Church (when it comes to financial transparency).  I was inquiring about rpn's opinion.

I haven't seen anything that shows OSF has failed to meet its standard of transparency.  It seems that most commenting here haven't bothered to look at the financial statements OSF published.  For example you said above:  "Dehlin, for example, shares what his base pay is but does not share how much he actually costs the non-profit (that would include base pay, bonuses, and benefits at least)."  And yet, the financial statements do provide this information.

I've looked through the financials (and thanks to Cal for providing all of that) but I certainly could have missed it.  How much in benefits did OSF pay out to Dehlin?  How much in benefits?

[rockpond]

Just now, bluebell said:

How is it demonstrably false?  Dehlin has not disclosed anything other than his base pay, has he?  And he admits that he gets bonuses and benefits.  What am i not understanding?

All of his financial compensation is shown in the financial statements on the OSF website.  Not just his base pay!  You can even see what OSF pays for his cell phone and meals.

[bluebell]

Just now, rockpond said:

All of his financial compensation is shown in the financial statements on the OSF website.  Not just his base pay!  You can even see what OSF pays for his cell phone and meals.

Great!  Could you provide how much he get's paid for benefits and bonuses?  Apparently i'm bad at finding this stuff.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've looked through the financials (and thanks to Cal for providing all of that) but I certainly could have missed it.  How much in benefits did OSF pay out to Dehlin?  How much in benefits?

For 2015, it is shown as $104,614.43 including all of the benefits and expense reimbursement.

Edited May 22, 2017 by rockpond

[stemelbow]

58 minutes ago, juliann said:

It doesn't sound all that vague to me, especially as others join in to confirm. Since the complaints are the lack of disclosure and transparency, it doesn't make much sense to demand it be produced by others. Nor is waiting for tax filings a useful excuse since those documents do not give the necessary detail.

Well maybe you're right about vagueness, but I can't tell:

Quote

Here are the concerns I have based on my experience:

-In late 2016, OSF completely revamped their pay structure for podcasters so that, while Dr. Dehlin continues to draw a regular base salary as CEO--with further unknown financial benefit from co-hosting podcasts with members of his household, collecting speaking fees for retreats, and performance bonuses--podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that OSF is based in Utah, a right-to-work state). This change also coincides with the first year that OSF has not been transparent about its finances and the substantially large retreats began. 

Not vague. The complaint is OSF has not been transparent about it's finances.  But, it's reasonable that they simply haven't been released yet.  So I'm not sure there's much to this criticism.

Quote

-Moderators who donate hours upon hours per week of their own time to moderate official OSF groups and funnel/support members into his organization have been invited to OSF banquets, but only if they pay for their food. 

Legit gripe and quite specific.  Hopefully they can have their food paid for them, as volunteers. 

Quote

-I have come to know many individuals who were never paid by Dr. Dehlin for professional services they did for him personally and OSF as an organization that they were promised. For my own time and travel to speak at a NYC OSF retreat, I was only comped for my flight—and only after sending 5+ reminder emails over 3 months. 

There's vagueness here.  What pro services?  I haven't seen anyone else step up and confirm this--at least no names.  And she was comped for the flight.  Delay happens.  I'm fine for her complaint that it was delayed, but that doesnt' mean much.  I too have had compensations delayed, for various reasons. 

Quote

-I was present when individuals who work for Dr. Dehlin have been brought to tears from how he treated them for privately (in a very small group) expressing concerns about his behavior. Our witnessing their treatment seemed to me a warning that we would be treated similarly if he perceived our loyalty to be lacking. 

That's epitomizes vagueness if you ask me.  I don't know what this could be.  he could have been as nice and polite as possible and someone could have cried.  This is really unhelpful to bring up in public.  maybe these folks who were brought to tears don't appreciate it. 

Anyway, I give her complaints a 50:50 vagueness scale.  I also give them a small reading on my woopty doo meter.  her comped issue is silly and the crying unnamed others?  don't even know what to make of that. 

58 minutes ago, juliann said:

 

Peggy Fletcher Stack responded to Kate Kelly's call for boycotts and news coverage by saying she was thinking about it. I thought this would die down quickly but it seems to be expanding, especially regarding misogyny in the exmo world. It is being blamed on church training, of course, which is kind of odd considering the world wide research that confirms it is ubiquitous. 

Not sure this makes sense to be brought up in the Trib.  But you never know. 

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Ironic, since these are the people who insist that the Church should have been avant garde, ahead of the curve, instead of reactionary, on racism and sexism. 

Yet, when unshackled from Mormonism, and free to lead out, they . . . blame "old habits of Mormonism dying hard" for their hypocrisy. 

OSF is way ahead of the church in transparency. Would you like to provide the link to the church's financials on lds.org?

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

OSF is way ahead of the church in transparency. Would you like to provide the link to the church's financials on lds.org?

I was talking about sexism, not transparency. 

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

For 2015, it is shown as $104,614.43 including all of the benefits and expense reimbursement.

I've gone back to look and see why I didn't think this information was provided, and what people who used to work for OSF are upset about, and I see that the accusations are talking bout OSF after 2015.  

From Kristy Money-

In late 2016, OSF completely revamped their pay structure for podcasters so that, while Dr. Dehlin continues to draw a regular base salary as CEO--with further unknown financial benefit from co-hosting podcasts with members of his household, collecting speaking fees for retreats, and performance bonuses--podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that OSF is based in Utah, a right-to-work state). This change also coincides with the first year that OSF has not been transparent about its finances and the substantially large retreats began.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by bluebell

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

OSF is way ahead of the church in transparency. Would you like to provide the link to the church's financials on lds.org?

So that is all that is required of an org that promises total transparency? Pick another org who never claimed that and isn't required to produce it and claim superiority?

How about we stick with the claim of transparency instead of red herrings.

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

For 2015, it is shown as $104,614.43 including all of the benefits and expense reimbursement.

I honestly don't pay attention to my family's cell phone bills, but 2 grand a year seems high.  5 grand for meals is about 100 per week.  That's all that really stands out to me.  I don't really care, though.  I'd just repeat Money's complaints specifies that they were transparent up until the pay structure change--sometime in late 2016.  So...whatever...I guess we're waiting to see how it goes. 

Did he take a pay cut this past year?  I thought his salary was 82,500 in 2016, but it was more than that in 2015?  That's interesting to note since it seems he's also suggesting it's a growing enterprise. 

I'm guessing 2016 finances will be out and the transparency complaint will go away.  maybe Dehlin will pay for the food for his moderators going forward and that complaint will be gone.  Maybe no one else will cry when he talks to them.  That might do away too (of course I shouldn't be callous about that complaint but I find it so vague I'm not sure it's helpful).  And people will get compensated more timely when they incur personal expenses.  I guess we'll see. 

As I break it down this whole mess is just ridiculous.  Why she made it public?  it feels silly. 

 

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've gone back to look and see why I didn't think this information was provided, and what people who used to work for OSF are upset about, and I see that the accusations are talking bout OSF after 2015.  

From Kristy Money-

In late 2016, OSF completely revamped their pay structure for podcasters so that, while Dr. Dehlin continues to draw a regular base salary as CEO--with further unknown financial benefit from co-hosting podcasts with members of his household, collecting speaking fees for retreats, and performance bonuses--podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that OSF is based in Utah, a right-to-work state). This change also coincides with the first year that OSF has not been transparent about its finances and the substantially large retreats began.

 

I can't tell if she's suggesting since the 2016 financials haven't been posted that means that 2016 has not been transparent, or that internally they were more transparent before they were released, and thus her complaint is that she wasn't apprised of the financials.  If the former, well, I'm not sure her complaints means anything since it's likely, and has been explained, these financials haven't been released yet but will be released.  If the latter, then ok.  I guess she has a gripe--but even that we'll have to wait and see. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'd be surprised if comedian host Johnny Carson didn't practice lines for his interviews. The best part of Dehlin's content to me is how he gives a platform to messages and experiences relevant to leaving Mormonism. 

Some interviews are better than others. 

I remember a point with Trevor Haugen when I expected Dehlin to interject or finish Haugen's sentence, but he didn't and Haugen was able to describe his pain in more detail, which seemed to me to be a beneficial moment for Haugen.

Christine Jeppson Clarke, Kim Sandburg Turner, Lance and Nicki Miles, Alex Autry, Sandra Tanner, Brent Metcalf,  Michael Coe,...there are tons of amazing, moving, and inspiring stories.

 

That’s what we call a testimony.

They work both ways because we are emotional creatures

Sad that one would choose to make his living from negative testimonies about anything.   Very sad.

[rockpond]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've gone back to look and see why I didn't think this information was provided, and what people who used to work for OSF are upset about, and I see that the accusations are talking bout OSF after 2015.  

From Kristy Money-

In late 2016, OSF completely revamped their pay structure for podcasters so that, while Dr. Dehlin continues to draw a regular base salary as CEO--with further unknown financial benefit from co-hosting podcasts with members of his household, collecting speaking fees for retreats, and performance bonuses--podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that OSF is based in Utah, a right-to-work state). This change also coincides with the first year that OSF has not been transparent about its finances and the substantially large retreats began.

 

Okay... got it.  I guess we'll have to see when they publish the 2016 finances.  They've done it every year and Dehlin promises full transparency (in almost every podcast) - so I assume the OSF income statement and balance sheet will be forthcoming.