Open Stories Foundation---Dehlin, Money, and compensation

[juliann]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

Not sure this makes sense to be brought up in the Trib.  But you never know. 

Kate Kelly's go fund me computer made the Trib. I know that because......

 

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

I was talking about sexism, not transparency. 

Indeed, Kate Kelly's FB page showed up on my feed today and that is what this seems to be turning to. 

21 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 Anyway, I give her complaints a 50:50 vagueness scale.  I also give them a small reading on my woopty doo meter.  her comped issue is silly and the crying unnamed others?  don't even know what to make of that. 

 

No, it isn't silly when you look at what information has been provided. The claim is that women are being paid less or nothing at all and that their work is confiscated and given to family members or others if they are perceived to be disloyal. As I said, this seems to be moving towards an indictment of pervasive sexism in the post/exmo community. 

I think that the exit narratives have promoted the idea that merely leaving turns you into a different person on every level. (Somewhat like our idea of entering the afterlife when we for some explicable reason will want to be married to despicable people who "repent", for instance.) 

I have said this before, I think there is a maturation process going on on all sides (aside from the always present zealots and perpetual haters.) Church supporters, for the most part, have had to admit the discriminatory practices against women. It is easier to point it out in others, of course, what we are seeing now is the need to recognize it everywhere. So like I said, kudos to those (mostly women) demanding a single standard. 

[rockpond]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly don't pay attention to my family's cell phone bills, but 2 grand a year seems high.  5 grand for meals is about 100 per week.  That's all that really stands out to me.  I don't really care, though.  I'd just repeat Money's complaints specifies that they were transparent up until the pay structure change--sometime in late 2016.  So...whatever...I guess we're waiting to see how it goes. 

Did he take a pay cut this past year?  I thought his salary was 82,500 in 2016, but it was more than that in 2015?  That's interesting to note since it seems he's also suggesting it's a growing enterprise. 

I'm guessing 2016 finances will be out and the transparency complaint will go away.  maybe Dehlin will pay for the food for his moderators going forward and that complaint will be gone.  Maybe no one else will cry when he talks to them.  That might do away too (of course I shouldn't be callous about that complaint but I find it so vague I'm not sure it's helpful).  And people will get compensated more timely when they incur personal expenses.  I guess we'll see. 

As I break it down this whole mess is just ridiculous.  Why she made it public?  it feels silly. 

 

My cell phone is my primary business line and a critical tool in my business.  Annually, I'm at around $1,800.  $100 per week on meals isn't much if you take people out to eat as part of your work (I do) and I assume Dehlin does.  And when you consider that some of those meals are from traveling - it's pretty easy to get to that number.  Just my thoughts on those figures -- from my perspective (and line of work) they seem normal but I can see why others might look at them as high.

Dehlin has said that his base salary for 2016 was $82,500.  He also gets a bonus.  The $104k number I provided was total compensation and expenses for Mormon Stories (which is what I believe Bluebell was asking for).

 

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Okay... got it.  I guess we'll have to see when they publish the 2016 finances.  They've done it every year and Dehlin promises full transparency (in almost every podcast) - so I assume the OSF income statement and balance sheet will be forthcoming.

It would be interesting to know when the statements for 2014 and 2015 were published.  Then it would at least be known whether or not this year is unique in that the year's almost half over and nothing has been provided yet.  

There are those who are saying that Dehlin is making so much money now that it's messing with his narrative (that he could be making a lot more money if he had never gotten involved with OSF, etc.) and putting him in the GA Stipend range and that's why it hasn't been released yet.  Of course, those are just allegations and the release of the financials will clear that up (for good or ill).

And just to be clear, I have never had anything to do with OSF and didn't even know it existed until Saturday.  I don't really care what they do financially.  I find the other accusations against Dehlin (that he shuns anyone not completely loyal to him and that he's a sexist spotlight hog, for example) to be much more interesting and noteworthy.

I was also surprised to see that KK has turned on him so completely.  

Edited May 22, 2017 by bluebell

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I can see that. 

I like to vary topics and media...just pointing this out because it feels like some--not you--seek to frame Dehlin as the ex-Mormon prophet, upon which ex-Mormonism will succeed or fail. While John Dehlin has done enormous good for transitioning Mormons, people will keep leaving with or without him. And, unlike ex-Mormonism which is a vast and broad space, Mormonism does indeed rely on the legitimacy of one prophet.

There is no intent to do that here that I can see.

The only person I can remember doing anything close to that is Dehlin and the OSF Board if Kristy Money is correct in her description:

"When I was deliberating whether or not to stay with OSF last Nov. when issues between John and Kate Kelly unfolded, both John and the OSF board told me that we can’t let John’s reputation risk tarnishing, because if that happens, “the Church wins.”"

My view...there has been vocal, critical exmormon groups since the beginning of the Church.  If Dehlin stays or goes from the limelight, life goes on.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

No, it isn't silly when you look at what information has been provided. The claim is that women are being paid less or nothing at all and that their work is confiscated and given to family members or others if they are perceived to be disloyal. As I said, this seems to be moving towards an indictment of pervasive sexism in the post/exmo community. 

Okee dokes. I've haven't followed the blow up that has resulted among the ex-mormon world.  As it is, I have not seen evidence that women are being paid less, necessarily, for the work that they do.  Looking at the 2015 financials Money's podcast brought in exactly nothing (did it start up after 2015?).  A Thoughtful faith podcast brought in some money ($2700 approx.), but Colvin was paid more than her podcast brought in (approx. $4800).  I'm not saying women have been paid less, as per their work.  But I'm not sure that's a sustainable complaint based on what we have in front of us.  Of course it's still possible.  And ultimately that wasn't in Money's complaint. 

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think that the exit narratives have promoted the idea that merely leaving turns you into a different person on every level. (Somewhat like our idea of entering the afterlife when we for some explicable reason will want to be married to despicable people who "repent", for instance.) 

I have said this before, I think there is a maturation process going on on all sides (aside from the always present zealots and perpetual haters.) Church supporters, for the most part, have had to admit the discriminatory practices against women. It is easier to point it out in others, of course, what we are seeing now is the need to recognize it everywhere. So like I said, kudos to those (mostly women) demanding a single standard. 

If they have a legit gripe about the treatment of women in OSF, by OSF or John, I'm all for it. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

So far it just seems to be a lot of allegations. 

I am really disappointed with his removing Alyson as a moderator.  No defense for that. 

I haven't noticed him mistreating women or LGBT persons...

Except for the removal of Alyson...

The complaints are not so much of mistreatment but of benevolent patriarchy...not letting them have their own voice, but attempting to speak for them; not living up to commitments made to help.

This would be harder to recognize.

[juliann]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly don't pay attention to my family's cell phone bills, but 2 grand a year seems high.  5 grand for meals is about 100 per week.  That's all that really stands out to me.  I don't really care, though.  I'd just repeat Money's complaints specifies that they were transparent up until the pay structure change--sometime in late 2016.  So...whatever...I guess we're waiting to see how it goes. 

Did he take a pay cut this past year?  I thought his salary was 82,500 in 2016, but it was more than that in 2015?  That's interesting to note since it seems he's also suggesting it's a growing enterprise. 

I'm guessing 2016 finances will be out and the transparency complaint will go away.  maybe Dehlin will pay for the food for his moderators going forward and that complaint will be gone.  Maybe no one else will cry when he talks to them.  That might do away too (of course I shouldn't be callous about that complaint but I find it so vague I'm not sure it's helpful).  And people will get compensated more timely when they incur personal expenses.  I guess we'll see. 

As I break it down this whole mess is just ridiculous.  Why she made it public?  it feels silly. 

 

It's called whistleblowing. 

And you are still, I think, missing the important part. She claimed that money has not been accounted for. The idea that these delayed financials (which he blamed on their accountant being "backlogged", i.e., too busy with his other stuff) are going to disclose everything is a tad hopeful, I think, when he has never disclosed how much money goes his direction beyond a "base salary."  I think that is obvious with the neatly rounded $2000 phone bill and $5000 meal tab. It seems more likely that he is getting an automatic check rather than reimbursed by receipts. 

When you are, as he claims, a not-for-profit on a shoe string budget,  it does matter how much you are paid. That has nothing to do with how much he deserves it or how hard he works. 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to know when the statements for 2014 and 2015 were published.  Then it would at least be known whether or not this year is unique in that the year's almost half over and nothing has been provided yet.  

According to Kristy Money:

2011: Released between 6 Jan 2012 and 10 Jan 2012 2012: Released between 20 April 2013 and 21 April 2013 2013: Released 9 July 2014 2014: Released 18 Jan 2015 2015: Released between 15 March 2016 and 18 March 2016.

You never know.  Has been as late as July and as early as Jan. 

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are those who are saying that Dehlin is making so much money now that it's messing with his narrative (that he could be making a lot more money if he had never gotten involved with OSF, etc.) and putting him in the GA Stipend range and that's why it hasn't been released yet.  Of course, those are just allegations and the release of the financials will clear that up (for good or ill).

Yep.  We'll see.  this weekend, Dehlin claimed he is getting paid, as in current, 82,500.  He said one day ago, "My salary is $82,500. The board sets it. I've been open about my salary since day one."

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And just to be clear, I have never had anything to do with OSF and didn't even know it existed until Saturday.  I don't really care what they do financially.  I find the other accusations against Dehlin (that he shuns anyone not completely loyal to him and that he's a sexist spotlight hog, for example) to be much more interesting and noteworthy.

I was also surprised to see that KK has turned on him so completely.  

Yeah, she turned on him last year, I believe.  He may really damage his credibility and org if the sexist accusations hold, or the accusations that he demands loyalty above openness.  But we'll see. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What information exactly you would like hear or see other than how much Natasha Parker made in 2015?

I want to know who are the board members for the past year and a half while this was going on in order to know the context better.

I would like to see documentation if possible that Kristy Money's claims are not accurate.

Of course this is mostly simple curiosity for me, I neither donate or am interested in podcasting in general, I prefer to read; but I am interested in others' POV and experiences.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

It's called whistleblowing. 

And you are still, I think, missing the important part. She claimed that money has not been accounted for. The idea that these delayed financials (which he blamed on their accountant being "backlogged", i.e., too busy with his other stuff) are going to disclose everything is a tad hopeful, I think, when he has never disclosed how much money goes his direction beyond a "base salary."  I think that is obvious with the neatly rounded $2000 phone bill and $5000 meal tab. It seems more likely that he is getting an automatic check rather than reimbursed by receipts. 

When you are, as he claims, a not-for-profit on a shoe string budget,  it does matter how much you are paid. That has nothing to do with how much he deserves it or how hard he works. 

I get it.  There might be something to this.  But I'm not so sure.  I guess we'll see. 

Here's the info I was referencing for cell phone and meals.  I don't think this is for him personally but is attributed to Mormonstories expenditures:

Quote

Mormon Stories

Cell Phone 2,154.87

Computers 1,958.03

Contract Services 91,308.20

Equipment Rental 775.51

Total Internet Hosting Fees 87.11

Meals 5,111.53

Miscellaneous 1,995.00

Paypal Fees 265.19 Savings-0587 Transfer to Savings 0.00

Travel 958.99 T

otal Mormon Stories 104,614.43

When I said the 2 grand and 5 grand, I was approximating. 

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think that is obvious with the neatly rounded $2000 phone bill and $5000 meal tab. It seems more likely that he is getting an automatic check rather than reimbursed by receipts. 

You really ought to read the income statement before making these false accusations.  It is less than 2 pages long.

Edited May 22, 2017 by rockpond

[Calm]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think its somewhat of supplemental income.  He's a trained professional therapist of sorts now.  I'm sure he gets paid for his professional therapist work too. 

According to reports of his own reports he is only working 1-2 hours a week as a coach.  

He can't work as a therapist as he didn't go through the final qualification process, iirc, which is working under an established therapist (like student teaching).  Going from memory, so may be inaccurate.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

According to reports of his own reports he is only working 1-2 hours a week as a coach.  

He can't work as a therapist as he didn't go through the final qualification process, iirc, which is working under an established therapist (like student teaching).  Going from memory, so may be inaccurate.

Calm, you're late ont his correction.  Meadowchik already dinged me.  Oopsie.  my bad. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wouldn't compare John Larsen and John Dehlin. I've also listened to all of John Larsen's and I'm not sure John cares one way or the other what members like me are going through. He may have at one time, but he became pretty bitter none the less. And the quote above simply shows John trying to move in the middle of both worlds of which I relate well to.

That quote was from sometime ago for both.  I would not assume either would stay in that particular place over the years.

Iirc, Larsen always was open he came from a disbelieving POV even when he took over the podcasts when Dehlin stopped.  But I could be wrong and don't have time to check today.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You really ought to read the income statement before making these false accusations.  It is less than 2 pages long.

It looks to me like Dehlin is trying to spread the love (money in this case) around a bit.  So I'm still feeling a bit perplexed by the complaints about people not getting paid. 

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I get it.  There might be something to this.  But I'm not so sure.  I guess we'll see. 

Here's the info I was referencing for cell phone and meals.  I don't think this is for him personally but is attributed to Mormonstories expenditures:

When I said the 2 grand and 5 grand, I was approximating. 

Ah, my mistake.

And this....  "I don't think this is for him personally but is attributed to Mormonstories expenditures:" is why whatever they disclose won't be adequate. When the allegation is that he doesn't pay content providers, I highly suspect Mormonstories is all him.  What they are providing is more vague than Money's whistleblowing. 

 

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, rockpond said:

My cell phone is my primary business line and a critical tool in my business.  Annually, I'm at around $1,800.  $100 per week on meals isn't much if you take people out to eat as part of your work (I do) and I assume Dehlin does.  And when you consider that some of those meals are from traveling - it's pretty easy to get to that number.  Just my thoughts on those figures -- from my perspective (and line of work) they seem normal but I can see why others might look at them as high.

Oh I agree. 

32 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Dehlin has said that his base salary for 2016 was $82,500.  He also gets a bonus.  The $104k number I provided was total compensation and expenses for Mormon Stories (which is what I believe Bluebell was asking for).

 

Well wait...the $104K number was from 2015 and associated was a $91K which I thought was that which was given to Dehlin for his work.  I did see he stated his current pay is 82,500, but I can't tell.  It seems like, then, perhaps something of Money's complaint is that the approx. $9k difference could be unaccounted for in 2015.  If that, she might be thinking that $9K unaccounted for is much higher in 2016, and she finds the unfair. 

But, beats me.  I'm still feeling kind of confused about why this is public int he first place. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks Rockpond, thats interesting and I didn't know about that.  So, did the 2015 income statement specifically show how much revenue each podcast brought in?  

Also, do you know when they changed from the model that you mention (fixed income) vs. the newer model I saw some comments discussing which would be based on the # of downloads for each of the podcasts? 

 

I believe I posted "pulled in" (revenue) and "contract services" for each podcast listed in 2015.  Money's started in October 2015 as far as I can tell and she hadn't been paid anything by December 2015 at least, but that might have been just her personal podcasting where she later moved to OSF.

Now what "contract services" means is the question for me and did other podcasters who did not have detailed expenses given have to cover those expenses out of that is another one.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Ah, my mistake.

And this....  "I don't think this is for him personally but is attributed to Mormonstories expenditures:" is why whatever they disclose won't be adequate. When the allegation is that he doesn't pay content providers, I highly suspect Mormonstories is all him.  What they are providing is more vague than Money's whistleblowing. 

 

Fair.  There's definitely vagueness in the financial statements. 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It looks to me like Dehlin is trying to spread the love (money in this case) around a bit.  So I'm still feeling a bit perplexed by the complaints about people not getting paid. 

Yeah - we'll have to see what the 2016 statements show.  But as of 2015, MS podcast (Dehlin's podcast) was subsidizing the other newer podcasts in the OSF family.

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It looks to me like Dehlin is trying to spread the love (money in this case) around a bit.  So I'm still feeling a bit perplexed by the complaints about people not getting paid. 

I think too many women are now stepping up, including the one who was just banished, for this to be a viable position. Kate Kelly's FB page contributors display the discontent https://www.facebook.com/katekellyesq/posts/10158869661055226

 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well wait...the $104K number was from 2015 and associated was a $91K which I thought was that which was given to Dehlin for his work.  I did see he stated his current pay is 82,500, but I can't tell.  It seems like, then, perhaps something of Money's complaint is that the approx. $9k difference could be unaccounted for in 2015.  If that, she might be thinking that $9K unaccounted for is much higher in 2016, and she finds the unfair. 

But, beats me.  I'm still feeling kind of confused about why this is public int he first place. 

He stated this his current salary is $82,500 plus a performance bonus (of not more than 15%) and health insurance.

The numbers I cited (for the $104k) are from 2015 with that $91k presumably all going to Dehlin as the podcaster.  I don't think that is the basis of Money's complaint as $91k for 2015 makes sense given everything he's said about his compensation.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

 But, the vagueness and the lack of substance to her complaints (meaning they are alleged with nothing to back them up at this point) make her complaints sound convenient in the extreme if she really just wants to complain about Dehlin. 

I don't find her claims vague (she did post more so perhaps that is why; if  no one else posts it by the time I catch up with the thread, if I have time I will find it and post it).  They are undocumented though, which is imo a big thing.  If I went public with such accusations I would try and provide documentation.

One of her complaints was well documented by Dehlin himself in his response to the moderator by dismissing and blocking her after years of unrecognized free service to the Foundation.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yeah - I just don't know anything about the change in pay structure (if there was one).

And if they did switch to a pay-per-download structure than I'm not sure what her specific complaint would be.

It happened late 2016 apparently.  And I believe it was a base rate across the board and then pay per downloads.

Her main complaint in her treatment seems to me  lack of communication and follow through. First, Dehlin made commitments he did not follow through with.  Second, she was never informed  on who and how much donations were made to her podcast.  It took much of a year for her to finally be paid anything.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

It's also enlightening to see those who argue that the Church cannot be transparent (because critics would pick apart the financial statements) pick apart OSF because it is transparent.

Only because OSF and Dehlin are calling for others to be more transparent than they are at this point.  I wouldn't be half as interested if they hadn't been doing this.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Calm