Religious freedom in Russia

[rongo]

I find this highly disturbing in terms of its implications for the Church. Missionaries already can't proselyte, and observers are watching to catch missionaries tripping up.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/april/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html

The dissolving of legal rights, seizure of property, etc. are reminiscent of the polygamy acts in the 1880s. 

[thesometimesaint]

They have religious freedom in Russia. They are free to believe whatever the government tells them to believe.

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I find this highly disturbing in terms of its implications for the Church. Missionaries already can't proselyte, and observers are watching to catch missionaries tripping up.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/april/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html

The dissolving of legal rights, seizure of property, etc. are reminiscent of the polygamy acts in the 1880s. 

This is disturbing. When I heard the news last week, I had the same reaction. This court decision doesn't augur well for the LDS Church's long-term prospects in Russia. That said, it seems that the Witnesses have been in the government's crosshairs for a long time.

Quote

While the court case has attracted recent media attention, this move is the culmination of two decades of increasing state hostility to Witnesses. In the late 1990s, Moscow took the Witnesses to court to deny them legal standing in the city limits. After several years of court hearings, the city banned the organization. In more recent years, anti-extremism laws drafted in the wake of domestic terrorism have been turned against Witness magazines and books. Currently, over eighty publications have been placed on the federal list of extremist materials. Even their website is now illegal. So is My Book of Bible Stories, an illustrated book for children, listed alongside publications by terrorist organizations.

https://blog.oup.com/2017/04/banning-jehovahs-witnesses-russia/

The prosecutor argued—successfully—that the group posed a threat to "public order and public security." According to a Reuters report, "prosecutors have long cast it as an organization that destroys families, fosters hatred and threatens lives."

Mormons tend to be in less tension with the surrounding culture than Jehovah's Witnesses. (We, of course, allow blood transfusions and military service, and celebrate birthdays, Halloween, etc.) But the Church obviously needs to tread very carefully. I very much doubt that there are any plans at this point for a temple in Moscow.

[rongo]

J.W.'s are more disliked than Mormons (they are more annoying to people than we are), but it's the pretext of "extremism" that worries me. To most non-Mormons, we are "extreme," too, and JW's are no more extreme than we are. Not really (transfusions and military service aside --- it's not those things that will save the day long-term for us in other countries). It would be too easy to do the exact same thing to us in Russia. And, with the ban on proselyting and us being closely watched to see if/when we trip up on this, there is increasingly little point to having missionaries there (which is their point, I think).  

Buckle your seat belts!

Edited April 24, 2017 by rongo

[strappinglad]

I suspect that the Russian Orthodox Church has been putting pressure on the Gov't to target " western religions " . If we are seen as an 'American ' church , then we will come under stronger scrutiny also. Unless, of course, the current US admin with all its Russian connections can  intervene .

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

I find this highly disturbing in terms of its implications for the Church. Missionaries already can't proselyte, and observers are watching to catch missionaries tripping up.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/april/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html

The dissolving of legal rights, seizure of property, etc. are reminiscent of the polygamy acts in the 1880s. 

Yeah, it's disturbing for sure. If it can happen to one, it can happen to all.

I've been a bit disheartened on social media by all of the people stating that JW are a cult, blah, blah blah, and therefore their religion deserves to be banned. No one is safe when totalitarianism trumps religious freedom.

[Nevo]

2 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Unless, of course, the current US admin with all its Russian connections can  intervene .

Is there an "Orange Horse Prophecy" somewhere? JLHPROF?

[strappinglad]

11 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Is there an "Orange Horse Prophecy" somewhere? JLHPROF?

I think the horse color you are looking for, and the most appropriate would be " dun " .

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I suspect that the Russian Orthodox Church has been putting pressure on the Gov't to target " western religions " . If we are seen as an 'American ' church , then we will come under stronger scrutiny also. Unless, of course, the current US admin with all its Russian connections can  intervene .

I know Russians who saw the comments of the Russian Orthodox leader back in the 90s as attempting to maintain not only dominance, but complete dominance as far as Christian faiths and they saw this as evidence of the Church's drive for lost power. 

At the time, I felt it was a fair assessment of the Moscow leader given his comments during the election.  I haven't studied the issue since then, but I don't see reason to believe it's changed much.

I have no clue how much political power the RO Church has these days, if they are being humored or courted for their influence.  I have heard some compassionate and thoughtful things from some leaders, so in no way do I assume all of their leaders are power hungry.

It seems that as long as a nationalistic approach is taken by top leaders, shutting down 'nonRussian' faiths will proceed, perhaps slowly so they don't lose money coming in through donations, but as long as it is useful as a talking point in politics, it will continue.

[Ahab]

"The judge ordered all 395 local chapters and its Russian headquarters to close and authorized the government to seize all property. Under the ruling, distributing copies of the Watchtower, discussing their beliefs in public, or even worshipping at a meeting hall has become a crime."

That's one way to stop or slow down their growth, I suppose. I wonder what fines or prison terms, if any, the Russian government would impose upon those who break that judges orders? Are Russian judge's rulings automatically considered legislature and law?

[The Nehor]

I do not really like their faith but extremist? They are politically inoffensive for the most part.

 

 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, rongo said:

I find this highly disturbing in terms of its implications for the Church. Missionaries already can't proselyte, and observers are watching to catch missionaries tripping up.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/april/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html

The dissolving of legal rights, seizure of property, etc. are reminiscent of the polygamy acts in the 1880s. 

Wow did they get a raw deal. I don't ever seem to have much issue with JWs. I have invited them in, prayed with them, and then they don't seem to come back... I've also had conversations with one or two regarding their faith. Although I find their theology blatantly wrong, they have always been very kind people. Like several on the thread I find this decision worrisome. There seems to be no legal test or standard other sects can use to judge how Russia may treat them. The sole criterion seems to be whether a group is judged "extreme" or not. Yikes. If the Church has any designs on growing there, I would definitely consider just renting property, so there is nothing to confiscate. 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

They have religious freedom in Russia. They are free to believe whatever the government tells them to believe.

Putin is reviving the old Soviet Union, but the result is likely to be no more oppressive than the anti-proselyting rules in China, Israel, etc.  The Russian Orthodox Church is favored because it is the traditional church, but Russian LDS members will just have to hunker down as oppression increases -- Chinese mainland Mormons are under similar strictures not to proselyte, but they can baptize family members, hold meetings, and go to the Hong Kong Temple when necessary.  So too, a Russian LDS member can always go to the Kiev Temple to do sealings, and the like.  Putin knows the Mormons well from his days as a KGB colonel in East Germany.  Mormons caused him no trouble or concern, and the Mormons were even allowed to build a temple in East Germany.  Not to worry.  This too shall pass.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

"The judge ordered all 395 local chapters and its Russian headquarters to close and authorized the government to seize all property. Under the ruling, distributing copies of the Watchtower, discussing their beliefs in public, or even worshipping at a meeting hall has become a crime."

........................................................  

Something like that was planned by the Feds against the LDS Church in the last days of polygyny, but we rightly kowtowed and saved our organization and our church property.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

..............................

........................And, with the ban on proselyting and us being closely watched to see if/when we trip up on this, there is increasingly little point to having missionaries there (which is their point, I think).  

...........................

The missionaries might remain useful in assisting struggling congregations, and engaging in service projects.  Jewish missionaries (Chabad) are unlikely to have a problem, since Putin and Netanyahu seem to meet regularly, and it is a non-Christian religion which does not convert Christians in Russia.  The Chabad missionaries are only there to minister to, and activate ethnic Jews.

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Ahab said:

"The judge ordered all 395 local chapters and its Russian headquarters to close and authorized the government to seize all property. Under the ruling, distributing copies of the Watchtower, discussing their beliefs in public, or even worshipping at a meeting hall has become a crime."

That's one way to stop or slow down their growth, I suppose. I wonder what fines or prison terms, if any, the Russian government would impose upon those who break that judges orders? Are Russian judge's rulings automatically considered legislature and law?

Russia doesn't have judicial review unlike the US.

[cinepro]

22 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I suspect that the Russian Orthodox Church has been putting pressure on the Gov't to target " western religions " . If we are seen as an 'American ' church , then we will come under stronger scrutiny also. Unless, of course, the current US admin with all its Russian connections can  intervene .

If the fate of the LDS Church in Russia rests on the current US admin "intervening" on our behalf, then all is lost.

Edited April 25, 2017 by cinepro

[rongo]

I think that this is a harbinger of things to come, even in the West. I know that many say that's ridiculous, that the Bill of Rights prohibits things like that from happening here, but it all depends on the make-up of the legislature, the courts, and the executive branch. If they're all complicit (like the Book of Mormon says, when the voice of the people chooses evil), then it doesn't matter what the Bill of Rights says. 

I think that Russia and other countries are canaries in the mineshaft as far as North America and some European countries. I don't think it's imminent, but I think society will continue to drift towards a climate where the Church and other religious groups with standards that run counter to society will be persecuted and proscribed. 

[thesometimesaint]

Fascism is great if you can stay off the crap list. The problem with Fascism is staying off the crap list.

[Five Solas]

I'm old enough to remember all the LDS speculation in the 70's and 80's about what would happen if/when the Soviet Union gave up communism.  (This was when LDS kids were encouraged to think about where they might go on their missions--the oldest of my sisters was excited about Oman, for reasons I no longer recall.  She ended up going to Wisconsin.)  What a growth opportunity it was going to be for the LDS Church!  And present difficulties notwithstanding, what a growth opportunity it actually was for the JW's. 

Does anyone else remember all that heady, faith-affirming speculation 30+ years ago?  And how many LDS stakes are there in Russia today, at risk of persecution?  Is there even one?  And do any LDS feel let down, perhaps even a little envious of what the JW's accomplished? 

--Erik

________________________________________________

I'm living in films for the sake of Russia
A kino runner for the DDR
And the fifty-two daughters of the revolution
Turn the gold to chrome

--Sisters of Mercy "Dominion/Mother Russia" 1987 (Fun fact: the Sisters included a former Mormon on lead guitar, Wayne Hussey)

Edited May 2, 2017 by Five Solas
clarity

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I'm old enough to remember all the LDS speculation in the 70's and 80's about what would happen if/when the Soviet Union gave up communism.  (This was when LDS kids were encouraged to think about where they might go on their missions--the oldest of my sisters was excited about Oman, for reasons I no longer recall.  She ended up going to Wisconsin.)  What a growth opportunity it was going to be for the LDS Church!  And present difficulties notwithstanding, what a growth opportunity it actually was for the JW's. 

Does anyone else remember all that heady, faith-affirming speculation 30+ years ago?  And how many LDS stakes are there in Russia today, at risk of persecution?  Is there even one?  And do any LDS feel let down, perhaps even a little envious of what the JW's accomplished? 

--Erik

________________________________________________

I'm living in films for the sake of Russia
A kino runner for the DDR
And the fifty-two daughters of the revolution
Turn the gold to chrome

--Sisters of Mercy "Dominion/Mother Russia" 1987 (Fun fact: the Sisters included a former Mormon on lead guitar, Wayne Hussey)

To be fair, relative to today and the past 20 years, the Church was growing like a wild fire back in the 70s and 80s.  The members back then, nor the leaders were anticipating the stunning near halt of today (which halt leaders are, at least publicly, in denial about today anyway).  But then again it was cute back in the day to hear all the excitement about how when Russia opens... and when China opens...and the floods that were coming. 

Russia stats for your enjoyment:

23,180 members

7 missions

64 Family History Centers

103 congregations

There's a presence, but it's quite humble, shall we say? 

Thanks for the reminder. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

t

Edited May 2, 2017 by stemelbow

[Five Solas]

I asked how many LDS stakes in Russia.  Your stats didn't include, stemelbow.  Do you know the answer?

--Erik

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I asked how many LDS stakes in Russia.  Your stats didn't include, stemelbow.  Do you know the answer?

--Erik

I'm sure it's out there.  I just went to the newsroom where the stats are easily accessible and gave what they offered:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics/country/russia

Quote

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, organized the Moscow Russia Stake on 5 June 2011 — the first stake in Russia and the second in the former Soviet Union.

Guess you were wrong about no stakes. 

According to this there are 3 in Russia

[Stargazer]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Putin is reviving the old Soviet Union, but the result is likely to be no more oppressive than the anti-proselyting rules in China, Israel, etc.  The Russian Orthodox Church is favored because it is the traditional church, but Russian LDS members will just have to hunker down as oppression increases -- Chinese mainland Mormons are under similar strictures not to proselyte, but they can baptize family members, hold meetings, and go to the Hong Kong Temple when necessary.  So too, a Russian LDS member can always go to the Kiev Temple to do sealings, and the like.  Putin knows the Mormons well from his days as a KGB colonel in East Germany.  Mormons caused him no trouble or concern, and the Mormons were even allowed to build a temple in East Germany.  Not to worry.  This too shall pass.

I am unsure if I remember this correctly, but I seem to recall that Cleon Skousen once said that Russia would return to its old totalitarian ways.  And indicated that this was something out of prophecy -- not sure where.

Can you document your statement that Putin doesn't have a problem with the Mormons?  This is not a CFR, I am just curious about that part.