Stargazer Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 On 4/25/2017 at 0:06 PM, rongo said: I think that this is a harbinger of things to come, even in the West. I know that many say that's ridiculous, that the Bill of Rights prohibits things like that from happening here, but it all depends on the make-up of the legislature, the courts, and the executive branch. If they're all complicit (like the Book of Mormon says, when the voice of the people chooses evil), then it doesn't matter what the Bill of Rights says. I think that Russia and other countries are canaries in the mineshaft as far as North America and some European countries. I don't think it's imminent, but I think society will continue to drift towards a climate where the Church and other religious groups with standards that run counter to society will be persecuted and proscribed. Yeah, the Constitution didn't help Japanese-Americans stay out of internment camps during WW2.
Stargazer Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 9 hours ago, Five Solas said: I'm old enough to remember all the LDS speculation in the 70's and 80's about what would happen if/when the Soviet Union gave up communism. (This was when LDS kids were encouraged to think about where they might go on their missions--the oldest of my sisters was excited about Oman, for reasons I no longer recall. She ended up going to Wisconsin.) What a growth opportunity it was going to be for the LDS Church! And present difficulties notwithstanding, what a growth opportunity it actually was for the JW's. Does anyone else remember all that heady, faith-affirming speculation 30+ years ago? And how many LDS stakes are there in Russia today, at risk of persecution? Is there even one? And do any LDS feel let down, perhaps even a little envious of what the JW's accomplished? --Erik ________________________________________________ I'm living in films for the sake of Russia A kino runner for the DDR And the fifty-two daughters of the revolution Turn the gold to chrome --Sisters of Mercy "Dominion/Mother Russia" 1987 (Fun fact: the Sisters included a former Mormon on lead guitar, Wayne Hussey) I find it fun to dig into the Meetinghouse Locator when looking for LDS church units worldwide. You can drill down to Moscow, for example, by following this LINK. This uses Google Maps, I believe, to pinpoint pretty much every church building on earth.
Daniel2 Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 It seems that Russia is getting more and more restrictive on many freedoms that we appreciate and enjoy here in the States. Disturbing that they're starting to single out specific religions to ban... but unfortunately, not surprising given the current leaders' trends. Hopefully the international community can put some pressure on the government and effect some changes that preserve these diminishing individual liberties and freedoms.
Calm Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 17 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I am unsure if I remember this correctly, but I seem to recall that Cleon Skousen once said that Russia would return to its old totalitarian ways. It never really left from what I personally saw and heard reported.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 3, 2017 Posted May 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Stargazer said: I am unsure if I remember this correctly, but I seem to recall that Cleon Skousen once said that Russia would return to its old totalitarian ways. And indicated that this was something out of prophecy -- not sure where. Can you document your statement that Putin doesn't have a problem with the Mormons? This is not a CFR, I am just curious about that part. I am assuming that he has personal knowledge from his KGB days in East Germany. He speaks fluent German. He is a very smart man, and is sure to be very aware of who the potential troublemakers are. Moreover, the KGB worked closely with the Stasi (East German security), who likewise had no problem with the Mormons. 2
Five Solas Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 4:37 PM, Stargazer said: I find it fun to dig into the Meetinghouse Locator when looking for LDS church units worldwide. You can drill down to Moscow, for example, by following this LINK. This uses Google Maps, I believe, to pinpoint pretty much every church building on earth. Interesting. At least one of those looks like a boarded up McDonald's. Maybe the creator of that Locator app had a sense of humor and/or knows whatever the story is in Russia--it will be kinda tough for anyone to verify. "Hey, a few of us expats met there once for McMuffins to talk about the restored gospel and reminisce about our time in Provo. That makes it a meeting house, let's add it to the Locator app!" ;0) But seriously, three stakes in three decades?!? (If there really are three in 2017--which is proving to be a much harder question than anyone might have guessed.) After all the speculation and hype 30+ years ago--there's got to be at least a little LDS envy of JW accomplishments, present difficulties notwithstanding. Do any LDS feel let down, or do you trust that your leaders did their best with what they had? --Erik
Gray Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 6:48 PM, Calm said: It never really left from what I personally saw and heard reported. They seem to have just replaced the old system with a new system run by gangsters, which seems to amount to the same thing.
Garden Girl Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 My former Bishop and his wife (the Zollingers) are serving a senior member mission in the Novosibirsk Russia Mission, Siberia... GG
Calm Posted May 4, 2017 Posted May 4, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gray said: They seem to have just replaced the old system with a new system run by gangsters, which seems to amount to the same thing. Yes. I have seen evidence of involvement of government members with mafia in the assassination of a friend of my husband's in Moscow due to a business dispute. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tatum The wiki lacks details on how certain officials were involved in the takeover before he was killed. This looks accurate for the details I know: http://www.russiancriminaltattoo.com/2010/01/paul-tatum.html Edited May 4, 2017 by Calm 1
Daniel2 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) On 04/25/2017 at 1:06 PM, rongo said: I think that this is a harbinger of things to come, even in the West. I know that many say that's ridiculous, that the Bill of Rights prohibits things like that from happening here, but it all depends on the make-up of the legislature, the courts, and the executive branch. If they're all complicit (like the Book of Mormon says, when the voice of the people chooses evil), then it doesn't matter what the Bill of Rights says. I think that Russia and other countries are canaries in the mineshaft as far as North America and some European countries. I don't think it's imminent, but I think society will continue to drift towards a climate where the Church and other religious groups with standards that run counter to society will be persecuted and proscribed. I agree that Russia is increasingly concerning as they encroach on individual civil liberties and curtail human rights, which include growing restrictions on religious liberties and issues of LGBT tolerance (and certainly equality). In other words, Russia is attacking any ideologies that its rulers disagree with--its not just religion that's under attack there. However, I am not convinced that the actions taken by Russia foreshadow that which will occur in the United States.... Civil rights and liberties have continually been expanding in the United States--not contracting. Our Constitutional protections have been expanding to new groups and being applied to them equally--not shrinking or removing the rights of others. From my perspective, the perception that rights are being removed is really just a desire to claim that an ability to refuse to serve others as a right, which was never really a right that existed in the first place. I do think it is true that churches in Europe and the United States are losing their social influence, and I know that some religious lobbying groups feel that being required to treat newly-recognized protected classes the same as everyone else is treated is somehow a violation of their religious liberty, but I don't see any indication that religious individuals are being persecuted or that their actual civil liberties are truly being restricted. Of course, this view of mine rests on the belief that the concept of religious liberty doesn't mean individuals can discriminate in the public sphere (though as private institutions, churches, clergy members, and religious intuitions are not and should not be obligated to follow the rules of the public sphere or of those intuitions which use public funds to serve the public). Of course, I realize that many will feel differently and may be astonished that I don't believe religious freedom is truly under threat, especially those that feel that public accommodation laws (being required to treat newly recognized protected classes equally according to the laws which govern civil interactions in the public sphere) are a violation of the personal religious liberty of individuals. Edited May 5, 2017 by Daniel2
Calm Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) Quote However, I am not convinced that the actions taken by Russia foreshadow that which will occur in the United States I agree because Russia has never had a real opportunity to live under relative freedom. I don't think one can extrapolate what is happening there to what might happen there. If religious freedom is diminishing here (which is debatable in my view, it may be in some areas, but expanding in others), it is not doing so for the same reasons it is happening in Russia. The background of both nations is too dramatically different for that to happen, though they can both be exposed to the same set of influences in certain areas. Edited May 5, 2017 by Calm 1
Daniel2 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 19 hours ago, Calm said: I agree because Russia has never had a real opportunity to live under relative freedom. I don't think one can extrapolate what is happening there to what might happen there. If religious freedom is diminishing here (which is debatable in my view, it may be in some areas, but expanding in others), it is not doing so for the same reasons it is happening in Russia. The background of both nations is too dramatically different for that to happen, though they can both be exposed to the same set of influences in certain areas. Well said, Calm. In the USA, I think there will always be some push/pull activity along the border between church and state, as a matter of 'border maintenance" according to the issues of the day.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 On 4/24/2017 at 10:53 AM, rongo said: I find this highly disturbing in terms of its implications for the Church. Missionaries already can't proselyte, and observers are watching to catch missionaries tripping up. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2017/april/russia-bans-jehovahs-witnesses.html The dissolving of legal rights, seizure of property, etc. are reminiscent of the polygamy acts in the 1880s. Somebody who grew up in that part of the world (not Russia). I know what mob rule is.
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