Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 We had combined EQ and HP earlier and one of the Stake Presidency taught. He told us the following scenario, I’ll be paraphrasing. Apparently someone confessed to a Bishop about some things and the Bishop said well, just don’t do it again, if it happens and you want to talk about it my door is always open and there wasn’t any church discipline of any kind. However this person told the Bishop he stopped some years before when in reality it was a week ago. The person, assumingly, told the spouse what the Bishop said and then the spouse told this Stake Presidency member when they actually last did it. So the question was asked is this person repentant? They did confess and was given some advice but would they have been given the same advice if they said they just did it a week ago to the Bishop? ( He didn’t say what was confessed ) The timing of whatever seems to be an issue. Thoughts on how repentant the person is?
Calm Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Given the conditions you describe while stating if a person actually asked me to judge, I would say "not making a judgment, but you might consider rethinking it yourself if you are needing someone else's opinion"... I think there were mixed feelings. I would say there is a chance he needed to be a bit more repentant about the issue whatever it was so as to be honest about it and now repentant about not telling the truth.
Bobbieaware Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Duncan said: We had combined EQ and HP earlier and one of the Stake Presidency taught. He told us the following scenario, I’ll be paraphrasing. Apparently someone confessed to a Bishop about some things and the Bishop said well, just don’t do it again, if it happens and you want to talk about it my door is always open and there wasn’t any church discipline of any kind. However this person told the Bishop he stopped some years before when in reality it was a week ago. The person, assumingly, told the spouse what the Bishop said and then the spouse told this Stake Presidency member when they actually last did it. So the question was asked is this person repentant? They did confess and was given some advice but would they have been given the same advice if they said they just did it a week ago to the Bishop? ( He didn’t say what was confessed ) The timing of whatever seems to be an issue. Thoughts on how repentant the person is? In Doctrine and Covenants 58 , the Lord gives a very simple rule that makes it easy to determine whether or not someone's repentance IS sufficiently sincere. It says... 43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, HE WILL CONFESS THEM and forsake them. (D &C 58). The man in question did not honestly confess the true degree of his actual sin, therefore his confession isn't sufficient to bring full forgiveness. Committing a new sin (in this case lying) in order to minimize the seriousness of old sin demonstrates the man is more concerned with saving face and avoiding embarrassment than with justly receiving the Church discipline needed to truly put his past wrongs behind him. Edited March 13, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: In Doctrine and Covenants 58 , the Lord gives a very simple rule that makes it easy to determine whether or not someone's repentance IS sufficiently sincere. It says... 43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, HE WILL CONFESS THEM and forsake them. (D &C 58). The man in question did not honestly confess the true degree of his actual sin, therefore his confession isn't sufficient to bring full forgiveness. Committing a new sin (in this case lying) in order to minimize the seriousness of old sin demonstrates the man is more concerned with saving face and avoiding embarrassment than with justly receiving the Church discipline needed to truly put his past wrongs behind him. I hear you but maybe they haven't forsaken them long enough? I don't know the gender of this person
gopher Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Reminds me a bit of a few missionaries I met in the MTC who admitted they drank/smoked/had sex/etc all before they were 18 because they knew they could go to their bishop, serve their year probation, and then still go on their missions when they turned 19. Seemed to make a mockery of the Atonement. They didn't seem very repentant even though they had gone through all the steps (maybe that's unfair of me). I just don't think it's possible to game the system. One guy actually did turn things around about a year into his mission, but he basically wasted his first year and made life miserable for everyone who had to work with him during that time.
churchistrue Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Sounds like a really dysfunctional marriage.
dberrie2000 Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 10 hours ago, bluebell said: No, i don't think the person was repentant. Personally--I don't either--and, to be sure--may have added the charge of lying to his list. But, on a interesting note--I was set apart as the 1st C in the Bishopric yesterday, and had an interesting training session which followed. In training as to the particular of Temple Recommend interviews--I had a question, IE-- "If I were interviewing someone who I knew viewed pornography, and they did not relate that to anything which violated a temple interview--what do I do?" The Stake President relayed some advice to us which he had received--that does not necessarily exclude him from the temple. The church is now willing to work with those who have certain addictions in a much more amendable fashion, and with increased grace--than before. And I thought about the principle demonstrated in the scriptures--where there is an increase of the influence of wickedness--there is an increase of God's grace. 4
rpn Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Truth is that we don't know enough in that scenario to know whether the person is in a repentant state. We know that the person lied, which itself would be a new sin. (I'd argue his biggest sin was in trying to manipulate his wife into thinking his bishop had signed off in approval of where he was at. Though it is possible that the bishop's response would have been the same --- there is a specific handbook section labelled "Failure to Comply with Some Church Standards" that says there should be no disciplinary council or threats of them (which arguably means these are not sins for which discipline is appropriate) for "self-abuse", for word of wisdom, for failure to pay tithing or attend church or attend to their church duties. ) 1
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, dberrie2000 said: Personally--I don't either--and, to be sure--may have added the charge of lying to his list. But, on a interesting note--I was set apart as the 1st C in the Bishopric yesterday, and had an interesting training session which followed. In training as to the particular of Temple Recommend interviews--I had a question, IE-- "If I were interviewing someone who I knew viewed pornography, and they did not relate that to anything which violated a temple interview--what do I do?" The Stake President relayed some advice to us which he had received--that does not necessarily exclude him from the temple. The church is now willing to work with those who have certain addictions in a much more amendable fashion, and with increased grace--than before. And I thought about the principle demonstrated in the scriptures--where there is an increase of the influence of wickedness--there is an increase of God's grace. From Elder Scott, Oct. 2013 GC "The joyful news for anyone who desires to be rid of the consequences of past poor choices is that the Lord sees weaknesses differently than He does rebellion. Whereas the Lord warns that unrepented rebellion will bring punishment, when the Lord speaks of weaknesses, it is always with mercy." 2
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 My Mum had a Temple recommend interview with a Bishopric counselor and she knew he didn't pay tithing because his wife was my Mum's VT comp. and she told her, this wasn't that situation with the Stake Pres. member though
Jeanne Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I am thinking that the level of repentance may have a first step. After all is said and done, this person knew what he/she was supposed to do..and take a walk into the Bishop's office. For this, I think he/she deserves a couple of points. Being comfortable with a bishop may give he/she courage to speak more truthfully...especially if they build a relationship where they care about the trust of this Bishop. Sometimes it takes several visits ...you know, this person didn;t have to go. I believe that God would at least acknowledge the desire of the heart...the conscience will compensate. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Duncan said: We had combined EQ and HP earlier and one of the Stake Presidency taught. He told us the following scenario, I’ll be paraphrasing. Apparently someone confessed to a Bishop about some things and the Bishop said well, just don’t do it again, if it happens and you want to talk about it my door is always open and there wasn’t any church discipline of any kind. However this person told the Bishop he stopped some years before when in reality it was a week ago. The person, assumingly, told the spouse what the Bishop said and then the spouse told this Stake Presidency member when they actually last did it. So the question was asked is this person repentant? They did confess and was given some advice but would they have been given the same advice if they said they just did it a week ago to the Bishop? ( He didn’t say what was confessed ) The timing of whatever seems to be an issue. Thoughts on how repentant the person is? I don't think that its anyone's business here to make a conclusion on whether this person was repentant or not. Whatever his reasons for qualifying his confession....give the poor guy some credit for stepping up and confessing (although I'm of the opinion that no one should confess anything but to their God) I don't think anyone of us has any idea how much courage it takes to confess a serious transgression. And for those of you who have offered your opinion on whether he is repentant or not...leave the poor guy alone...the speculation is offensive Edited March 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 3
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, Jeanne said: I am thinking that the level of repentance may have a first step. After all is said and done, this person knew what he/she was supposed to do..and take a walk into the Bishop's office. For this, I think he/she deserves a couple of points. Being comfortable with a bishop may give he/she courage to speak more truthfully...especially if they build a relationship where they care about the trust of this Bishop. Sometimes it takes several visits ...you know, this person didn;t have to go. I believe that God would at least acknowledge the desire of the heart...the conscience will compensate. I believe that too. People can say things bu the intent could be another, especially in a confession situation. My previous Bishop I didn't trust with personal info, nice guy but one time I sent him an email outlining a personal situation, for his eyes only, and he read it outloud in ward council, without my knowledge. There was some other times too that I wouldn't tell him any thing 2
dberrie2000 Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 27 minutes ago, Duncan said: From Elder Scott, Oct. 2013 GC "The joyful news for anyone who desires to be rid of the consequences of past poor choices is that the Lord sees weaknesses differently than He does rebellion. Whereas the Lord warns that unrepented rebellion will bring punishment, when the Lord speaks of weaknesses, it is always with mercy." That's a very interesting observation--I really appreciate that, Duncan. I really don't know how to balance grace in many situations, even when I am called to do so--that is such a difficult thing to have on one's shoulders. But, if I did err--I would like it to be on the side of grace. 2
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, dberrie2000 said: That's a very interesting observation--I really appreciate that, Duncan. I really don't know how to balance grace in many situations, even when I am called to do so--that is such a difficult thing to have on one's shoulders. But, if I did err--I would like it to be on the side of grace. no charge hope all goes well in your new calling!
ksfisher Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I don't think that its anyone's business here to make a conclusion on whether this person was repentant or not. Whatever his reasons for qualifying his confession....give the poor guy some credit for stepping up and confessing (although I'm of the opinion that no one should confess anything but to their God) I don't think anyone of us has any idea how much courage it takes to confess a serious transgression. And for those of you who have offered your opinion on whether he is repentant or not...leave the poor guy alone Amen.
Jeanne Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Duncan said: I believe that too. People can say things bu the intent could be another, especially in a confession situation. My previous Bishop I didn't trust with personal info, nice guy but one time I sent him an email outlining a personal situation, for his eyes only, and he read it outloud in ward council, without my knowledge. There was some other times too that I wouldn't tell him any thing Oh!!! I would have been livid!! How to approach a bishop with different personalities and traits..takes time. My last Bishop I really loved..but the one before always had a way of making me feel unclean..unworthy...and when I asked him the day after my husband died...where he was..did he miss us..his response was that he did have concern for his family..but had moved on and it was up to me to be a better person. Ugh..I do know that the bishop that I went through a repentance process with..told his wife many things and it was hard being a visiting teacher coordinator where women looked at me funny.. Edited March 13, 2017 by Jeanne 1
HappyJackWagon Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Duncan said: I hear you but maybe they haven't forsaken them long enough? I don't know the gender of this person Time is an arbitrary measure and not very useful IMO. A person could have stopped a behavior 5 years ago and not be truly repentant whereas a person who stopped last week could be. A person could be totally repentant this week and not next week. I learned that a lot of people lie during confessions. It's very counter-intuitive. Confessing to a priesthood leader may be deemed necessary so they do it but they try to soften the details. Instead of confessing everything many people tend to test the waters to see how responsive the bishop will be. How hard will he be? It was not uncommon for someone to confess one week for something seemingly minor but then return on consecutive weeks to add to their confession as they felt more comfortable with the process and were more able to trust. But your original question was about the "advice" the bishop gave the individual and if that would change with the full story. It's likely it could have an impact but I think the key word is "advice". A bishop is there to counsel the individual in their repentance process. He does not forgive sins. That is between the individual and the Lord. 3
pogi Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Whatever his reasons for qualifying his confession....give the poor guy some credit for stepping up and confessing (although I'm of the opinion that no one should confess anything but to their God) While I give the guy credit for taking a step, he didn't really confess to the sin he committed last week. That is not "qualifying his confession", that is omitting confession of his most recent sin. If this was in regards to an addiction or adultery, those details REALLY matter.
bluebell Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 2 hours ago, dberrie2000 said: That's a very interesting observation--I really appreciate that, Duncan. I really don't know how to balance grace in many situations, even when I am called to do so--that is such a difficult thing to have on one's shoulders. But, if I did err--I would like it to be on the side of grace. I've shared this in other threads, but my close friend was dealing with a very serious situation with her husband and some very bad choices he made. As part of the whole process her bishop met with her a few times and she told me that he once stated that usually, very little is lost and much is gained when we err on the side of mercy. 1
Duncan Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Time is an arbitrary measure and not very useful IMO. A person could have stopped a behavior 5 years ago and not be truly repentant whereas a person who stopped last week could be. A person could be totally repentant this week and not next week. I learned that a lot of people lie during confessions. It's very counter-intuitive. Confessing to a priesthood leader may be deemed necessary so they do it but they try to soften the details. Instead of confessing everything many people tend to test the waters to see how responsive the bishop will be. How hard will he be? It was not uncommon for someone to confess one week for something seemingly minor but then return on consecutive weeks to add to their confession as they felt more comfortable with the process and were more able to trust. But your original question was about the "advice" the bishop gave the individual and if that would change with the full story. It's likely it could have an impact but I think the key word is "advice". A bishop is there to counsel the individual in their repentance process. He does not forgive sins. That is between the individual and the Lord. This is excellent, thank you! Something I would like to see in the Church is what to expect when you confess a sin, what should happen, what feelings are normal or not normal, what happens if you confess and then a week later slip up? do you have to go back or what? I know these issues have been touched on but it seems a grey area Let's face it some Priesthood leaders aren't people people and personally I wouldn't tell them jack squat. Edited March 13, 2017 by Duncan 1
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I don't think that its anyone's business here to make a conclusion on whether this person was repentant or not. Whatever his reasons for qualifying his confession....give the poor guy some credit for stepping up and confessing (although I'm of the opinion that no one should confess anything but to their God) I don't think anyone of us has any idea how much courage it takes to confess a serious transgression. And for those of you who have offered your opinion on whether he is repentant or not...leave the poor guy alone...the speculation is offensive I think you are being unfair. I am guessing posters here have confessed serious transgressions so the idea that everyone has no idea seems unfounded.
Bobbieaware Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I don't think that its anyone's business here to make a conclusion on whether this person was repentant or not. Whatever his reasons for qualifying his confession....give the poor guy some credit for stepping up and confessing (although I'm of the opinion that no one should confess anything but to their God) I don't think anyone of us has any idea how much courage it takes to confess a serious transgression. And for those of you who have offered your opinion on whether he is repentant or not...leave the poor guy alone...the speculation is offensive I'm quite sure virtually every General Authority would agree that a partial confession is not as good as a full confession. Misleading a judge in Israel as to the extent of sin and the actual timeframe during which sin was committed is, in the end, counterproductive and self-defeating. Incomplete confession is a manifestation of a lack of faith in the cleansing power of Christ's atonement, a belief that the gravity of one's sins have placed him beyond the reach of God's full love and mercy. Such a defeatest approach to the gospel highlights one of the reasons why Paul is so adamant when he says we are saved by faith. For if God says "though our sins be as red as scarlet he will make them as white as snow," and yet one doesn't believe nor trust the Lord can do as he promised, it demonstrates a lack of faith and a negation of the fulness of the Lord's saving power. And I must say it seems to me only a fool would say a half-hearted demonstration of faith in God is just as good and efficacious as a demonstration of full faith in God.
dberrie2000 Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 18 hours ago, bluebell said: I've shared this in other threads, but my close friend was dealing with a very serious situation with her husband and some very bad choices he made. As part of the whole process her bishop met with her a few times and she told me that he once stated that usually, very little is lost and much is gained when we err on the side of mercy. Hi Bluebell: Maybe a little pride is lost in the balance--but well, it should be. I'm a weightlifter--and have studied the body, and how to build muscle. One of the things I have discovered, is that men might have ten times the testosterone in their bodies as women have. It's the stuff which makes men crazy. Some of the temptations of the modern day play directly into that--it's a perfect storm. I don't excuse anyone's behavior, but there are considerations. I just don't always know how to balance it out, and without the Spirit--would be totally lost, as sometimes, things which seem so logical--are just not the will of the Lord. It has become a very complicated world, and answers that seemed so clear yesterday--are muddled over today. I am convinced our level of spirituality must rise with that challenge, and I am praying the Lord could somehow change my heart to accommodate the higher revelation needed to guide my family. 2
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