And the Fastest Growing Church is...Ummm Nope Not That One.

[bcuzbcuz]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

We're all far behind Islam which has a current size of about 1.5 billion, and is taking over Europe. 

Are you serious??? I mean, really?

Do you live in Europe? Where are you getting your information?

I live in Europe. I live in the country that has taken in the highest number of refugees per capita than any other European country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population

Have I become Islamic? No. Have any of my neighbours become Islamic? No. But I have worked with refugees from Syria, Chad, Sudan and Iran. Some were Islamic, if they bothered to disclose. The woman and her daughter from Iran are Christian and I only know that because of her Facebook page. Religion didn't come up as a topic when I was teaching them Swedish. So your "information" "opinion" that "Islam is taking over Europe" is pure nonsense.

But I have visited Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Norway, Finland, Estonian, Latvia, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey and Greece, all within the last three years and I'll say you don't know what you're talking about.

Edited March 7, 2017 by bcuzbcuz

[dberrie2000]

14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Note the term..."Member Invovlement"  which is synonymous with the LDS term "Active Member" 

Hi Johnnie:

The term "Total Member Involvement" seems to be an initiative, not a reference to their active members. Where do we find that term equals the active membership?

http://www.columbiaunion.org/content/adventist-church-tops-19-million-members

Although the 19 million-member mark is significant, the more vital number — which can’t be determined through member audits — is the percentage of engaged and discipled members who are actively sharing their faith, Trim said.“A more accurate statistical picture of the church’s membership is a first step to the personal growth and renewal that we are all praying for,” Trim said. “We know that when our church members are also active and fruitful disciples, then membership growth will follow.”

[Buckeye]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Good.
Perhaps this means the prophesied winnowing down of the Church is under way.
Hold on tight that you may not be buffeted away by every false wind of doctrine or doubt.

 

If we judge the "true church" by who gets winnowed down the most, I would put my money on FLDS and other polygamist groups as more likely to be true than the LDS church.

11 hours ago, Calm said:

They are a good faith, imo.  I am pleased they are doing so well.

Agreed. I met a lot of Adventists on my mission in southern cal. On average, they were the best faith to tract into. They were above-average knowledgeable about their own beliefs, willing to sit down and have a reasonable conversation, and surprising had a lot of similar beliefs to LDS (degrees of glory, etc.). If I had to pick another faith than LDS, I'd strongly consider them.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Buckeye

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, rockpond said:

Nice passive-aggressive attack on the Adventists.  

I bet your comment would change if the LDS church was the fastest:  suddenly it would be all about the truth we have and the stone rolling forth.  But when the Adventists hold the title of fastest growing than it means that they are somehow lowering their standards to gain worldly popularity?

I was actually criticizing the wicked values of the world in these latter days, saying that I wouldn't want to be a member of any Church that has those same wicked values.

But yeah maybe in the millineum the world will be a lot better with our Lord's Church growing the fastest.

[Johnnie Cake]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 However, your figures here are in error.

 

Which ones?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Which ones?

The ones already pointed out to you in this thread.

[Alan]

I find it interesting that the SDA's are doing so well, given that they, like us, were born of the restorationist movement.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Are you serious??? I mean, really?

Do you live in Europe? Where are you getting your information?

I live in Europe. I live in the country that has taken in the highest number of refugees per capita than any other European country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population

Have I become Islamic? No. Have any of my neighbours become Islamic? No. But I have worked with refugees from Syria, Chad, Sudan and Iran. Some were Islamic, if they bothered to disclose. The woman and her daughter from Iran are Christian and I only know that because of her Facebook page. Religion didn't come up as a topic when I was teaching them Swedish. So your "information" "opinion" that "Islam is taking over Europe" is pure nonsense.

But I have visited Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Norway, Finland, Estonian, Latvia, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey and Greece, all within the last three years and I'll say you don't know what you're talking about.

I wish I was wrong. I don't know if you have your head in the PC sand or what, but your country of Sweden will be first.

Your native fertility rate is very low - I believe about 1.1-1.3, which means every two generations your native population is a quarter of its previous numbers. On the other hand your population of Muslims is on the opposite upward spiral. 

Here is some footage from Sweden which I characterize as worse than the worst American ghetto -

= news crew is repeatedly unprovokedly attacked

London now has a population of several million muslims. They have strong-armed the government into getting Shariah courts. They recently even got the consent to bring in child brides, which of course are illegal here in the states, and viewed as child abuse. Under Christian law it is a reprehensible sin.

Under the US constitution Shariah law is unconstitutional because it takes away civil liberties and in fact demands the death penalty for those practicing their civil liberties. Shariah law will fling Great Britain back into the dark ages (after 1000 years of advancement in western law) where people are killed for speaking their mind.

Egyptian Christians and converted Muslims coming to the United States are very very concerned for Europe.

It seems Sweden did not learn the lesson of Christian Lebanon. Christian you say? Yeah, before the Muslims came in it was an open, prosperous Christian country - something like Sweden was. Now it is an impoverished, war-torn Muslim country. Under the EU, Europe is doing the same thing to itself.

This is Brigette Gabriel, Christian survivor of Lebanon: 

Watch it and learn what is going to happen.

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Either God will come up with a way to dissuade them or, like with Enoch, he will fight the battles of Zion. Zion is invincible. The problem is we have never built it and tested that statement in this dispensation.

Well we better get with a little Alma 32 experiment then and see if it turns out sweet and bears fruit!  Maybe it's time to start digging foundations.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well we better get with a little Alma 32 experiment then and see if it turns out sweet and bears fruit!  Maybe it's time to start digging foundations.

Zion is where the pure in heart are.

Aren't you already there, like me???

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

If we judge the "true church" by who gets winnowed down the most, I would put my money on FLDS and other polygamist groups as more likely to be true than the LDS church.

Agreed. I met a lot of Adventists on my mission in southern cal. On average, they were the best faith to tract into. They were above-average knowledgeable about their own beliefs, willing to sit down and have a reasonable conversation, and surprising had a lot of similar beliefs to LDS (degrees of glory, etc.). If I had to pick another faith than LDS, I'd strongly consider them.

I have a really good friend who is very active seventh day adventist and we have had many (like hundreds) of gospel related conversations and she has never talked about believing in degrees of glory.  This intrigues me, i'm going to have to go ask her about it....  

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have a really good friend who is very active seventh day adventist and we have had many (like hundreds) of gospel related conversations and she has never talked about believing in degrees of glory.  This intrigues me, i'm going to have to go ask her about it....  

Please return and report.  I have a feeling that her understanding isn't as complete as ours is and that what we call "degrees of glory" isn't called that by them and the main idea they accept is that we will all be judged by our fruits which logically results in different outcomes even among those who are saved.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ahab

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So I saw this on another board and thought it might be of interest to the members of this board...seems like the 7th Day Adventists are growing by leaps and bounds....with a total ACTIVE membership of 20 million.  Compare this is LDS Active membership somewhere languishing at  a distant estimated 5 million active members.  This plus totally financial transparency...now if you could only eat meat...they'd really have something.

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2017-03-01/propelled-by-total-member-involvement-adventist-church-tops-20-million-members/

I consider this tradition a cousin of Mormonism, because of their development out of a similar time and place and Millenarian world view as early Mormonism developed. 

I visited a lot of other faiths on my mission, trying to get exposure to different beliefs first hand, and I had the absolute best experience with the Seventh Day Adventist congregation that I visited.  I felt like their service was quite similar to ours in many ways, the reverence they had.  We actually were teaching some individuals that were also being fellowshiped by the local Seventh Day Adventist Pasteur, and he was one of the nicest people I've ever met, and provided true service to these very poor individuals that we were teaching. I have a lot of respect for this group based on my experiences and interactions with them.  

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

"Muslims will nearly double their numbers in Europe – to more than 10% – by 2050 and will outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070, according to a new forecast of the growth of religions around the world.

The report, by Pew Research Center, also predicts that Muslims will become the second-largest religious group in the US – at 2.1% – by 2050." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/muslim-population-growth-christians-religion-pew

So even in 2050 Muslim's won't even be close to a majority in Europe or the US.  Furthermore, this growth will occur over generations where Muslims can become acclimated to western public life, culture and values.

I'd hold off on the scare-mongering if I were you.  It's really not fair to Muslims.

Give me one country where Muslims have "acclimated" to western public life. You don't understand Shariah law. Perhaps you don't realize that under Obama, Muslims got Florida to allow women to take their Driver's License picture with their full burkahs on. It is absurd. We are supposed to ID women from their eyes only?  BTW driving is a privilege - not a civil right. The Saudis don't let their women drive.

Now before you go saying I am hate mongering, I will say that Muslims can be very sweet people. Most Muslims in the United States are educated, and affluent members of society. And you will find that most of these are from India or other more moderate Muslim areas. My problem is with Islam. The problem I see is that we were allowing in under Obama Muslims from countries that tried to live Shariah Law. Shariah Law is diametrically opposed to the US constitution. Immigrants who do not recognize constitutional rights for all citizens have no business coming to the United States and trying to become citizens. It has nothing to do with racism, bigotry, etc. It has to do with preserving civil rights in this country.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Please return and report.  I have a feeling that her understanding isn't as complete as ours is and that what we call "degrees of glory" isn't called that by them and the main idea they accept is that we will all be judged by our fruits which logically results in different outcomes even among those who are saved.

I texted her.  I also sent her a link to our beliefs about the different degrees of glory so she can more easily compare and contrast how they mesh with her's.  I'll report her response when i get it.  

[Storm Rider]

16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Islam is the fastest growing religion.

And it has zero financial transparency.  I think it is supposed to mean something, but it escapes me.

[Storm Rider]

14 hours ago, rockpond said:

Nice passive-aggressive attack on the Adventists.  

I bet your comment would change if the LDS church was the fastest:  suddenly it would be all about the truth we have and the stone rolling forth.  But when the Adventists hold the title of fastest growing than it means that they are somehow lowering their standards to gain worldly popularity?

I think you may be projecting on his comments a meaning that is not there.  The 7th Day Adventists do not have a reputation of following the world or having poor morals, rather it is the opposite.  The fastest growing church is not named in the post.  

[thesometimesaint]

There is no such thing a Sharia Law.

SEE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/al-sharia-whats-wrong-with-sharia-law_b_1390132.html

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Give me one country where Muslims have "acclimated" to western public life. You don't understand Shariah law. Perhaps you don't realize that under Obama, Muslims got Florida to allow women to take their Driver's License picture with their full burkahs on. It is absurd. We are supposed to ID women from their eyes only?  BTW driving is a privilege - not a civil right. The Saudis don't let their women drive.

Now before you go saying I am hate mongering, I will say that Muslims can be very sweet people. Most Muslims in the United States are educated, and affluent members of society. And you will find that most of these are from India or other more moderate Muslim areas. My problem is with Islam. The problem I see is that we were allowing in under Obama Muslims from countries that tried to live Shariah Law. Shariah Law is diametrically opposed to the US constitution. Immigrants who do not recognize constitutional rights for all citizens have no business coming to the United States and trying to become citizens. It has nothing to do with racism, bigotry, etc. It has to do with preserving civil rights in this country.

Muslims make up about 1% of the population (anticipated to be 2% by 2050) and we are supposed to believe this minority is going to dominate the political scene enough to impose their own religious laws on us while we watch helplessly?

The whole subject is fear mongering to give stupid talk show hosts something to scare people with and to give some politicians an impotent threat they can pretend to bravely fight against. Smoke and mirrors.

[Storm Rider]

16 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So I saw this on another board and thought it might be of interest to the members of this board...seems like the 7th Day Adventists are growing by leaps and bounds....with a total ACTIVE membership of 20 million.  Compare this is LDS Active membership somewhere languishing at  a distant estimated 5 million active members.  This plus totally financial transparency...now if you could only eat meat...they'd really have something.

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2017-03-01/propelled-by-total-member-involvement-adventist-church-tops-20-million-members/

Though it has been pointed out already to quote from the article:

• "Total Member Involvement (TMI), implemented in its first full year in 2016, is a world church initiative that encourages every church member to actively share the gospel in his or her community. Outreach efforts include literature distribution, Bible studies, cooking classes, health seminars, free clinics, and public evangelistic meetings."

TMI is similar to our every member a missionary program; it is not a measure of member activity.  It is interesting how postively you projected onto this church; you have a completely different standard when reviewing the Church.  I think we all do that to some degree; we expect more from the Church, but we should also use the same standard for when judging other institutions if we are looking for truth.

[Storm Rider]

18 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is no such thing a Sharia Law.

SEE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/al-sharia-whats-wrong-with-sharia-law_b_1390132.html

That is just a game of words.  There is most definitely Sharia law and it is used in most Muslim nations.  I speak from living in the Middle East and having to gain approaval of business practices from an Imam - to demonstrate that it met Sharia law.

[Bob Crockett]

17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So I saw this on another board and thought it might be of interest to the members of this board...seems like the 7th Day Adventists are growing by leaps and bounds....with a total ACTIVE membership of 20 million.  Compare this is LDS Active membership somewhere languishing at  a distant estimated 5 million active members.  This plus totally financial transparency...now if you could only eat meat...they'd really have something.

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2017-03-01/propelled-by-total-member-involvement-adventist-church-tops-20-million-members/

I some doubts about this.  I used to work for the General Conference of the Adventists -- the one on the west coast of the United States.  In my California valley there is an Adventist Church chapel, built around 1960.  In the same valley, starting in the mid-70s, there have been built two LDS stake centers and four additional chapels each of which supports at least three units.  I drive or run by the Adventist chapel every single day, many times a day, and can see that it is in use for about one hour on Saturday and no other days.  Except, however, an Evangelical Church leases it and uses it on Sundays and an evening during the week.  A prominent Adventist built the chapel as well as a large expensive home across the street.  He has long ago moved away.  

I remarked about this circumstance to the equivalent of one their general authorities located near Sacramento.  He said that the LDS Church's growth was remarkable, but what was most remarkable was the daily use of and devotion for local chapels the LDS saints had, compared to the use made of his faith's buildings.  He said it demonstrated a significant difference in commitment between the rank and file of both religions, as LDS religiosity was a daily thing.   

It seems, however, the Adventists have made substantial inroads into Africa, as have the Jehovah's Witnesses.  (I also run by a JW Hall multiple times a month and see that it is in use a little more often than the Adventist chapel, but almost never during the week except Saturdays and Sundays).  By contrast, the Catholic Church on the main drag in my town is in use every single afternoon and many mornings, but it has a school attached.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Buckeye said:

If we judge the "true church" by who gets winnowed down the most, I would put my money on FLDS and other polygamist groups as more likely to be true than the LDS church.

Have they been losing members to apostasy?  I had no idea.  I though polygamist numbers were holding pretty steady.

But besides that the point stands.  The true gospel will never be the most popular, have the most members, nor should it.
If we ever become the most popular it will unavoidably be because we have lost the truth.
 

 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is no such thing a Sharia Law.

SEE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/al-sharia-whats-wrong-with-sharia-law_b_1390132.html

That author does not know what he is talking about. He says Shariah law is an oxymoron. Yes, it is. Shariah means law. So Sharia law is saying law law. What is Islamic law? It is a huge body of 1000 year old, middle-eastern tribal-based codes. The primary one is the Quran itself. Then since the Quran says to follow everything Muhammed says and does, and that he is the best example for mankind, all his supposed oral statements were collected into Hadiths. Together those comprise Sharia. 

Quote

But the problem is that it’s the abominations of al-Sharia we so often end up talking about regardless, and the abominations we sometimes even end up defending, things like stoning adulterers, and/or oppressing women, and/or condoning pedophilia, for the sake of religious freedom. 
But since those abominations are clearly indefensible Islamically, they can be —and should be— rejected Islamically, according to al-Sharia.

That is trying to change Sharia by cutting out the Quran which imposes all those things. While there are for example Indian Muslims who believe the Quran may be interpreted so as not to apply to non-Muslims, I would say at least half of the Muslims of the Middle East do not see it that way. Approximately half of the world's Muslims support the imposition of Sharia law. It is this half that the United States should not let in to the country as citizens. You cannot be a legal citizen of the United States and live the Sharia - that is the true oxy-moron which we are asked to believe we should allow in the PC names of diversity and multi-culturalism.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Muslims make up about 1% of the population (anticipated to be 2% by 2050) and we are supposed to believe this minority is going to dominate the political scene enough to impose their own religious laws on us while we watch helplessly?

The whole subject is fear mongering to give stupid talk show hosts something to scare people with and to give some politicians an impotent threat they can pretend to bravely fight against. Smoke and mirrors.

"All is well in Zion!"

Are you getting this number from the Muslim Brotherhood?

The number is already 2% here in the United States. It doubled under Obama's watch. If one follows the European trend the number of Muslims doubles every 20 years - not every 40. The US rate was low, because the Muslims which came here were mostly somewhat educated Indian Muslims who did not have the average rate of birth for Muslims. They actually came here to get away from Sharia law. That has changed. If you think it is all smoke and mirrors try going to preach Christianity in Dearborn, Michigan and see what happens. 

Of course these numbers are more like 8-10% already in Europe and in as few as 20 years the Muslims may be 50% of the population since the Gentile numbers will be halved by that time since the fertility rate in all the European countries is below 2 - except for the Muslims that is. Let's see 50% Muslim and 50% Gentile with a good portion having left Christianity. Sounds like what D&C is describing pretty much. All  quite realistic, quite soon. And where do you think those Muslims will go next? Do you think they won't use boats? Perhaps you do not remember the dark ages when the Islamic caliphates disrupted and cut off virtually all European trade impoverishing Europe?