And the Fastest Growing Church is...Ummm Nope Not That One.

[bcuzbcuz]

59 minutes ago, Alan said:

You're absolutely correct.

I had an American tell me the other day that "Europe is now majority Muslim"! I thought it was a joke to begin with, but he was dead serious.

There is a problem in some localized areas though, especially Malmo for example. My son recently returned from serving as a missionary in Sweden and told me there are some no-go areas. He was chased out of a neighbourhood by knife wielding Muslims more than once.

But these problems are very localized.

There were reports in 2012 of a masked man who chased after people, wielding a knife. I don't think they caught the guy. Swedish news is generally reliable (We don't have Fox News)

We do have crazies here in Sweden. Malmö has had a rash of Clown Mask reports. There are, however, several neo-nazi internet sites that revel in reporting anything negative about immigrants. 

And I do not understand where Americans get their news about Europe being overrun with foreigners. (Aren't  all Europeans "foreigners", according to Americans???) And how they identify people as belonging to various religious groups is beyond me. I've travelled extensively throughout northern Africa and would be hard pressed to identify anyone's religion just by looking at them. Some people wear a heavy cross around their neck, some were their Kippah, some take out their prayer mats when the Mosques call to prayer but most women dress modestly, some wearing a headscarf, a burqa or even a foota. Women's headgear does not denote religion, merely adherence to social customs.

Once again, unless specifically asked, it would be difficult to assign a religion to either male or female in Arab countries.

Edited March 8, 2017 by bcuzbcuz

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

There were reports in 2012 of a masked man who chased after people, wielding a knife. I don't think they caught the guy. Swedish news is generally reliable (We don't have Fox News)

We do have crazies here in Sweden. Malmö has had a rash of Clown Mask reports. There are, however, several neo-nazi internet sites that revel in reporting anything negative about immigrants. 

And I do not understand where Americans get their news about Europe being overrun with foreigners. (Aren't  all Europeans "foreigners", according to Americans???) And how they identify people as belonging to various religious groups is beyond me. I've travelled extensively throughout northern Africa and would be hard pressed to identify anyone's religion just by looking at them. Some people wear a heavy cross around their neck, some were their Kippah, some take out their prayer mats when the Mosques call to prayer but most women dress modestly, some wearing a headscarf, a burqa or even a foota. Women's headgear does not denote religion, merely adherence to social customs.

Once again, unless specifically asked, it would be difficult to assign a religion to either male or female in Arab countries.

Which Arab countries are you talking about where Islam is not the majority religion and you cannot identify who is and who is not Muslim?  I have also traveled extensively through north Africa and the Middle East and if you cannot tell who is and who is not a Muslim in an Arab nation then you are not looking.  I appreciate your good will and the desire to be neutral or PC, but being purposely naive is not a good attribute.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Storm Rider

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The US has a fertility rate of about 2.11. Are you saying that is not so? It is highest among all the nations I have spoken of - than all the nations of W Europe. I have given no rates for various religious groups you mention. Spain's is actually as low as 1.1 - that means 1/4 of the native population in 2 generations. 

Wrong, Rev.  The U.S. fertility rate has been in decline for many years, and the figure for 2016 is 1.87, which is in 142nd place in the world -- and this is the lowest on record for America. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

 Now, of course Utah currently has the highest U.S. fertility rate at 2.3.  Mormons as a group had a fertility rate of 3.4 in 2014.  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/22/mormons-more-likely-to-marry-have-more-children-than-other-u-s-religious-groups/ .  

[ksfisher]

8 hours ago, Alan said:

There is a problem in some localized areas though, especially Malmo for example. My son recently returned from serving as a missionary in Sweden and told me there are some no-go areas. He was chased out of a neighbourhood by knife wielding Muslims more than once.

But these problems are very localized.

That's too bad.  I served in mission in Sweden (87-89) and Malmo was my favorite city.  The area that we lived in was supposed to be one of the rougher areas, but I never felt or experienced anything would lead me to believe I was ever in any sort of physical danger.  Nice people. Lovely country. 

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Which Arab countries are you talking about where Islam is not the majority religion?  I have also traveled extensively through north Africa and the Middle East and if you cannot tell who is and who is not a Muslim in an Arab nation then you are not looking.  I appreciate your good will and the desire to be neutral or PC, but being purposely naive is not a good attribute.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being PC. I find your comment lacking in veracity. Are you being serious that you can merely look at a person and know their religion? I'm assuming you can do the same in SLC. You just look at a person and you know if they're Mormon or not? Good luck with that.

My wife and I have been to Egypt twice, my sister-in-law lives in Cairo. I doubt you could look at her and know her religion. It doesn't matter which religion her neighbours have, it doesn't even matter which religion her husband has, I doubt you could discern her religion by merely looking at her. In Cairo there are many people who are Muslim but never go to the Mosque. In Tunis, when there is a call to prayer, only a small percent of the shop owners pull out their prayer mats. The same was true in Morocco, only even less as a percentage. In Turkey, very few pull out their prayer mats, but can be true believers nevertheless.  

Some people have pictures of their local or favourite Mullah in their house. Or they have a framed poster with the 99 names of Allah. One could probably assume from that that they are Muslim in faith and daily living. But just as equally true is that everyone who professes to be Christian in the US is perhaps not Christian in their daily actions. 

You claim to have travelled extensively in North Africa and the Middle East. If you've been in Jerusalem you've probably seen that many there wear their religion on their arm sleeve (or head or face). Maybe their outward declarations are as much a social adaptation rather than a reference point to be used in all Arabic countries. The same could be true of Beirut. I don't know. I'd have to ask each individual before I could state anything with authority. 

[bcuzbcuz]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That's too bad.  I served in mission in Sweden (87-89) and Malmo was my favorite city.  The area that we lived in was supposed to be one of the rougher areas, but I never felt or experienced anything would lead me to believe I was ever in any sort of physical danger.  Nice people. Lovely country. 

I was a missionary in Malmö in 1966. Different situation, almost a different world. But I travel through Malmö quite often. I've never felt threatened, ever. The problems that Malmö have are identical to Göteborg and Stockholm. The Swedish policy of putting all immigrants into cramped and localized areas is fraught with systemic misthought. My wife and I, both immigrants, have chosen to move out of such an area. We've never regretted our move. 

And yes, Nice people, Lovely country.  

[bluebell]

For those who were interested, my Seventh Day Adventist friend got back to me today.  Here is her answer in her words-

"As far as I know and have researched, our church doesn't teach about levels of heaven. I know that in scripture 2 Corinthians 12:2, John speaks about being caught up into the third heaven. My understanding of that was that the first heaven is the sky that is about us, the second in where the sun, moon and stars are, and the third is the place where God dwells."

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For those who were interested, my Seventh Day Adventist friend got back to me today.  Here is her answer in her words-

"As far as I know and have researched, our church doesn't teach about levels of heaven. I know that in scripture 2 Corinthians 12:2, John speaks about being caught up into the third heaven. My understanding of that was that the first heaven is the sky that is about us, the second in where the sun, moon and stars are, and the third is the place where God dwells."

Sounds like a disconnect in her reasoning. Paul talked about levels of heaven, and she accurately described 3 of those levels, and yet she is saying her church doesn't teach that.

I'd leave that point alone though, thinking she'll probably recognize the disconnect as she thinks more about it, and focus instead on how we will all be judged by our fruits. When Joseph F. thought more about that the Spirit told him that, logically, there must be different levels of reward in heaven and shared some more details about it.  And the Spirit did that for me, too, and will probably also help your friend to see that.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sounds like a disconnect in her reasoning. Paul talked about levels of heaven, and she accurately described 3 of those levels, and yet she is saying her church doesn't teach that.

I'd leave that point alone though, thinking she'll probably recognize the disconnect as she thinks more about it, and focus instead on how we will all be judged by our fruits. When Joseph F. thought more about that the Spirit told him that, logically, there must be different levels of reward in heaven and shared some more details about it.  And the Spirit did that for me, too, and will probably also help your friend to see that.

There's no disconnect in her thinking, she just interprets that verse differently.  Rather than seeing each of those different examples of levels of heaven as symbolic, she sees them as literal.  It's a reasonable interpretation (even if i disagree with it).  

But this discussion really isn't about whether or not her beliefs are correct, so i don't want to go that direction.  

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

It has absolutely nothing to do with being PC. I find your comment lacking in veracity. Are you being serious that you can merely look at a person and know their religion? I'm assuming you can do the same in SLC. You just look at a person and you know if they're Mormon or not? Good luck with that.

My wife and I have been to Egypt twice, my sister-in-law lives in Cairo. I doubt you could look at her and know her religion. It doesn't matter which religion her neighbours have, it doesn't even matter which religion her husband has, I doubt you could discern her religion by merely looking at her. In Cairo there are many people who are Muslim but never go to the Mosque. In Tunis, when there is a call to prayer, only a small percent of the shop owners pull out their prayer mats. The same was true in Morocco, only even less as a percentage. In Turkey, very few pull out their prayer mats, but can be true believers nevertheless.  

Some people have pictures of their local or favourite Mullah in their house. Or they have a framed poster with the 99 names of Allah. One could probably assume from that that they are Muslim in faith and daily living. But just as equally true is that everyone who professes to be Christian in the US is perhaps not Christian in their daily actions. 

You claim to have travelled extensively in North Africa and the Middle East. If you've been in Jerusalem you've probably seen that many there wear their religion on their arm sleeve (or head or face). Maybe their outward declarations are as much a social adaptation rather than a reference point to be used in all Arabic countries. The same could be true of Beirut. I don't know. I'd have to ask each individual before I could state anything with authority. 

I have been in Cairo several times; it is one of my favorite cities in the world because I love the people and several of my work mates were Egyptian.  However, I lived in Qatar and the United Arab Emirates for several years.  I don't really care if you believe me or not - I know because I lived it regardless of your opinions.  I was not a passing tourist, but I worked there and traveled on business.

What my comment was focused on is in countries where the vast majority of the citiziens are Muslim you can look at them and tell if they are Muslim - their attire screams Islam.  If you cannot tell the difference in religious affiliation by looking at a woman in a burqa in Iraq and a woman not wearing a burqa and is one of the rare Christians then I don't know what to say.  I am stunned.  The catch is "vast majority" Muslim nations - it is really difficult to get it wrong.  Close your eyes and say the person speaking is a Muslim and you will be right 99% of the time.

Nope, never went to Jerusalem.  I determined it was wiser for me to not visit Israel and I never had cause to go there.

You are introducing all types of qualifications - is one actively Christian or actively Muslim based on their actions.  The point is that in countries where the vast majority of the citizens are Muslim it is easy to identify them.  They tend to dress the same way - it is not only religious but cultural.  Yes, there are exceptions as there are exceptions to all things, but if you cannot pick out a Muslim in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Oman, Bahrain, Libya, Tunisia, or Algeria you are not really looking very hard. 

You might want to get off that high horse you are riding.  You are not the first person to travel and you are certainly not the first person to travel in North Africa or the Middle East.

 

[bcuzbcuz]

9 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I have been in Cairo several times; it is one of my favorite cities in the world because I love the people and several of my work mates were Egyptian.  However, I lived in Qatar and the United Arab Emirates for several years.  I don't really care if you believe me or not - I know because I lived it regardless of your opinions.  I was not a passing tourist, but I worked there and traveled on business.

What my comment was focused on is in countries where the vast majority of the citiziens are Muslim you can look at them and tell if they are Muslim - their attire screams Islam.  If you cannot tell the difference in religious affiliation by looking at a woman in a burqa in Iraq and a woman not wearing a burqa and is one of the rare Christians then I don't know what to say.  I am stunned.  The catch is "vast majority" Muslim nations - it is really difficult to get it wrong.  Close your eyes and say the person speaking is a Muslim and you will be right 99% of the time.

Nope, never went to Jerusalem.  I determined it was wiser for me to not visit Israel and I never had cause to go there.

You are introducing all types of qualifications - is one actively Christian or actively Muslim based on their actions.  The point is that in countries where the vast majority of the citizens are Muslim it is easy to identify them.  They tend to dress the same way - it is not only religious but cultural.  Yes, there are exceptions as there are exceptions to all things, but if you cannot pick out a Muslim in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Oman, Bahrain, Libya, Tunisia, or Algeria you are not really looking very hard. 

You might want to get off that high horse you are riding.  You are not the first person to travel and you are certainly not the first person to travel in North Africa or the Middle East.

 

OK, I'm dismounting.

[Storm Rider]

16 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

OK, I'm dismounting.

I do appreciate your gracious dismount.  Bcuz, I strongly suspect that we agree on a great deal and that even this current position has more to do with miscommunication and a different emphasis in the same topic.  Regardless, thank you and I appreciate you.

[RevTestament]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:04 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Wrong, Rev.  The U.S. fertility rate has been in decline for many years, and the figure for 2016 is 1.87, which is in 142nd place in the world -- and this is the lowest on record for America. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

 Now, of course Utah currently has the highest U.S. fertility rate at 2.3.  Mormons as a group had a fertility rate of 3.4 in 2014.  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/22/mormons-more-likely-to-marry-have-more-children-than-other-u-s-religious-groups/ .  

You seem to be itching to show I am wrong about something Robert, but you are only helping my case. So my figure was more accurate for 10 years ago - so what? Does that make me wrong? It only makes me more right about the overall trends. But I am right about the US being higher than the European countries I rattled off. France might be higher - why don't you check? And while you are at it, compare France's total rate to the rate among its Muslim population. My guess is you will be saying you are right Rev....but anyway I have to change the subject by request, so I won't be responding to you again... Cheers

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

You seem to be itching to show I am wrong about something Robert, but you are only helping my case. So my figure was more accurate for 10 years ago - so what? Does that make me wrong? It only makes me more right about the overall trends. But I am right about the US being higher than the European countries I rattled off. France might be higher - why don't you check? And while you are at it, compare France's total rate to the rate among its Muslim population. My guess is you will be saying you are right Rev....but anyway I have to change the subject by request, so I won't be responding to you again... Cheers

Your figures were wrong.  I corrected them.  I have no problem with the comments you make here about Europe, so I don't know what your point might be.

[Damien the Leper]