The 17 Threats To The True Church

[Buckeye]

12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Good point.  That could very well be true.  Ditto with Family History which seems to be getting enormous amounts of emphasis within my stake.

I'm not sure there is some 'master plan' as much as well-intentioned leaders who are looking for different/better answers when the old one aren't working. 

As another example, I've noticed lately an uptick in leaders' discussion of abortion. For most of my life that hasn't been a big topic in church (outside of a few Neal Maxwell references). As I've thought "why is this happening now?" I realized that the uptick corresponds with a decrease in attention to LGBT issues. In other words, as members have gotten tired - or have tuned out - of messages attacking LGBT, leaders are searching for another "worldly other" to fight against. Abortion seems like as good an option as any. If the message creates movement in members, I predict we'll hear a lot more. If not, something else will be tried. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Anyone want to shed light on the "Language and Cultural Problems "-ites"" one?  I'm sure the Church struggles in some areas because of cultural issues and/or language.  I'm not sure what the "-ites" included may mean, though.  Any ideas? 

I think it refers to lack of unity arising from a sense of isolation due to political, cultural/traditional and other differences that are not well tolerated and especially when things get divisive or contentious to the point of people forgetting the fundamental principles of our religion and personal religious observance.

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-3065-there-were-no-manner-of-ites?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-3070-there-were-no-manner-of-ites?lang=eng

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it refers to lack of unity arising from a sense of isolation due to political, cultural/traditional and other differences that are not well tolerated and especially when things get divisive or contentious to the point of people forgetting the fundamental principles of our religion and personal religious observance.

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-3065-there-were-no-manner-of-ites?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-3070-there-were-no-manner-of-ites?lang=eng

But what is "ites" referring to and why add that?

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- I'm shocked there's a bubble for Robert Norman whom it appears few of us have ever heard of. We're kind of clued into this stuff, right?

2- The left/right division actually makes a lot of sense to me. I've described it that way to others myself. People on the left (unorthodox) and right (ultraorthodox) both seem dissatisfied with the church. It's the happy middle where people seem content, yet they are neither hot, nor cold. Shouldn't the lukewarm be spewed out  JK, JK.

3- I find it funny that P0rn is viewed as such a major reason why people leave the church. I've never heard anyone express that as a reason for leaving. It strikes me as leaders (who were likely polled) use that as a catch all when they can't discern any other problem.

4- Regarding "incapable" versus "unwilling" in reference to incredulity- This gets to the whole matter of whether belief is a choice or not. I believe that faith is a choice but belief is not. I am not only unwilling to believe the world is flat but I couldn't choose, or make myself believe it if I tried.

1 - maybe it was a joke (maybe he prepared the slide) -- "Lord is it I?"

2 - The happy middle seem more inclined to personal temptation than doctrine or policy.

3 - the slide says, "Leading ...Away from the Gospel" not the Church. That's why "incredulity" is general (over spiritual matters) rather than specific (to historical items).

4 - I think this is why Alma recommends a "desire to believe" as a starting place. Not that the world is flat or anything, but circumstances (geological and spiritual) arise where reevaluation of the fundamental princiles is useful. The Lord calls it "remembering" in this context, and we all have something to remember.

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I believe that faith is a choice but belief is not. I am not only unwilling to believe the world is flat but I couldn't choose, or make myself believe it if I tried.

I have heard atheists describe their disbelief in God the same way.  

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

1 - maybe it was a joke (maybe he prepared the slide) -- "Lord is it I?"

Doubt it.  He has resigned from the church after he was threatened with church discipline for marrying another woman behind his wife's back so he could live polygamy.

(Do you have an answer for my question I asked you above?)

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by JulieM

[Buckeye]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have heard atheists describe their disbelief in God the same way.  

Me too. Frankly, I believe them. It's no different for me than believing LDS testimonies or JW testimonies or Muslim testimonies. 

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But what is "ites" referring to and why add that?

"-ites" refers to 4 Nephi 1:15-18, and the links expound a bit on it.

I think the suffix is referenced in the bubble because language and culture (as two "grand heads" representing all the many other aspects of human sociality) are the main culprits for entrenching traditions that run contrary to the Gospel. "The relationship between language and culture is deeply rooted. Language is used to maintain and convey culture and cultural ties. Different ideas stem from differing language use within one's culture and the whole intertwining of these relationships start at one's birth."

http://www.tefl.net/elt/articles/teacher-technique/language-culture/ . I just Googled that quickly, but the same principle holds in teaching the Gospel.

Language and culture include education, science, technology, arts and politics, and we see how quickly these can change within a generation, and language (flattering language) is the medium through which this is done. it is easier to do this through carnal means than spiritual means, which is why ot is so easy for people to leave the Gospel over them.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Personally I see the emphasis on Keeping the Sabbath day Holy as a doubling down on trying to focus those still in the church to become even more devout than they already are.  If they can manipulate them into a more devout Sabbath they can pretty much keep them in the Mormon boat

Elder Oaks wife, sister Oaks, spoke to the sisters in my stake a month ago and (i realize this is hearsay) she spoke about how the push to focus on Sabbath Day observance was due to the apostles fasting and praying in the temple on how to help the members and God revealing to them that lax Sabbath day observance was part of the problem.  

But I have to ask, why chose to use the word 'manipulate'?  I know you have lamented lately how posters won't believe your motives or give you the benefit of the doubt, and the use of emotionally charged and negatively connotative words like manipulate (when other neutral words could easily get your point across) is likely part of the reason some posters think your posts are largely meant to throw the church under the bus.

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But what is "ites" referring to and why add that?

This is just a guess but i'm thinking it probably is a play on the whole 'ites' issue in the Book of Mormon where, when people used 'ites' (lamanites, nephites, amalakites, etc.) to distinguish themselves from each other it illustrated a lack of unity and contention in the land.  

After the Savior came, Mormon makes a point of telling us that there were no longer any 'ites' because everyone had become one. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by bluebell

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

A recent public sharing of a PowerPoint presentation presented to the Quorum of the 12 in December of 2015 lists these "issues and ideas" (and people) who are contributing to people leaving the Church.  

Over on the Mormon Stories site, it states this power point was created by the 12. 

Do you know if it was presented to them or created by them?

It states on MS:

"In this episode, an all-star panel reviews a recently leaked presentation created by the quorum of the twelve apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by JulieM

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Me too. Frankly, I believe them. It's no different for me than believing LDS testimonies or JW testimonies or Muslim testimonies. 

Do you believe they aren't accountable for their disbelief in God then since they are incapable of believing in Him thru no fault of their own?

 

[dberrie2000]

5 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

The real threat to the church are wards that are not friendly enough to new investigators and the less active. You increase friendship in a ward, you increase the success. Friendship and socialization are the keys to success. I know by personal experience.   

Hi Mormon:

Now that makes a lot of sense to me. Collapse never occurs from the outside.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

4- Regarding "incapable" versus "unwilling" in reference to incredulity- This gets to the whole matter of whether belief is a choice or not. I believe that faith is a choice but belief is not. I am not only unwilling to believe the world is flat but I couldn't choose, or make myself believe it if I tried.

It depends on what the belief or unbelief is about. Flat Earth Society members aside, there is pretty ample evidence that the world is not flat. The inability to believe in the existence of God is a self imposed limitation. There is ample evidence for an intelligent and educated scientist to believe in a universe designed and created by God, the big bang theory being one explanation of how He did it. The equally intelligent and educated atheist rejects that belief. I have a strong bias myself, so naturally think that the believing scientist would have a more logical outlook based upon human experience.

When it comes to Church history, any member of the Church that really believes in God, really believes that there was a person that came down to earth, lived a mortal life, walked on water, raised the dead, fed several thousand people with a few loaves of bread and fishes, died upon a cross, then resurrected himself should have no problem believing that Christ could appear to Joseph Smith, that the Book of Mormon was translated by the Gift and Power of God. or that polygamy was commanded by God to Joseph Smith. Any inability to believe in those things is a self imposed inability.

Glenn

[Johnnie Cake]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Elder Oaks wife, sister Oaks, spoke to the sisters in my stake a month ago and (i realize this is hearsay) she spoke about how the push to focus on Sabbath Day observance was due to the apostles fasting and praying in the temple on how to help the members and God revealing to them that lax Sabbath day observance was part of the problem.  

But I have to ask, why chose to use the word 'manipulate'?  I know you have lamented lately how posters won't believe your motives or give you the benefit of the doubt, and the use of emotionally charged and negatively connotative words like manipulate (when other neutral words could easily get your point across) is likely part of the reason some posters think your posts are largely meant to throw the church under the bus.

Fair Point...my bias flowing through I guess...I do not view the motivations of these men as you do...but this is not the place to air how I view them. I do appreciate you calling me out on it however 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Darren10]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

A recent public sharing of a PowerPoint presentation presented to the Quorum of the 12 in December of 2015 lists these "issues and ideas" (and people) who are contributing to people leaving the Church.  Interesting range of issues.  And why is "Robert Norman" on the list?  Is it this guy?

 

I also think the use of the term "incredulity" is misused in regards to Church history:

I don't know if it's intentional, but it misframes the issue many people have with LDS history.  The problem isn't "incredulity", or "unwillingness to believe."  It would probably be more correct to say they are "incapable of believing" based on the current evidence.

 

 

"I don't know if it's intentional, but it misframes the issue many people have with LDS history.  The problem isn't "incredulity", or "unwillingness to believe."  It would probably be more correct to say they are "incapable of believing" based on the current evidence." - I don't necessarily disagree but wouldn't it be a more of a  matter of not wanting to believe or not basing one's belief on faith and spiritual guidance?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

It is interesting that there's no bubble for the CES letter, but one for a fairly unknown guy named Robert Norman 

Perhaps he is well known among the conservative group.  Julie Rowe (I would class her as a false prophet) and Denver Snuffer were nonexistent on most LDS' radar even when their publications rated top in the Mormon market and they were traveling around to packed seminars.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I'm not sure there is some 'master plan' as much as well-intentioned leaders who are looking for different/better answers when the old one aren't working. 

As another example, I've noticed lately an uptick in leaders' discussion of abortion. For most of my life that hasn't been a big topic in church (outside of a few Neal Maxwell references). As I've thought "why is this happening now?" I realized that the uptick corresponds with a decrease in attention to LGBT issues. In other words, as members have gotten tired - or have tuned out - of messages attacking LGBT, leaders are searching for another "worldly other" to fight against. Abortion seems like as good an option as any. If the message creates movement in members, I predict we'll hear a lot more. If not, something else will be tried. 

Or it is possible that even though the rates are dropping outside the Church in the US (hopefully the world as well), it has been normalized for so long now it is increasing within the Church population. (Just speculating, it could very well be as you say)

Edited March 1, 2017 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Interesting that John Dehlin was Excommunicated on February 8, 2015 and yet they still consider him an issue in December of 2015...guess kicking him out didn't really help matters

It depends entirely on what you assume was the reason for John's excommunication.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, JulieM said:

What is the "ites" referring to? Lamanites?

What else would it mean I wonder?

I'll hazard one guess: We used to have a language branch in our stake, but it was filled with all kinds of in-fighting between tribes from the home country, flouting of Church policies, etc. Stake leadership analysed the situation and concluded that the branch wasn't really needed since only about three of the adult members attending the branch don't speak the local language. For these three (and any others that wanted to participate), a ward was designated to provide translation in their language and also an adult Sunday school class in their language, and then the branch was dissolved. At least half of the branch members never came back to church after that. Instead, they found a Protestant church that lets them have their own cultural/language service.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Other than Kirtland, can anyone think of another time in the history of the church when it has faced such widespread apostasy and or people resigning and leaving the church?

Over the years that I've been a member of the Church, people have apostatised. I've personally not noticed any uptick and certainly not anything I'd call 'widespread' in my ward/stake/area. (In the past ten years, I've served in two bishoprics and one stake presidency, so I'm reasonably plugged in. Nothing historically unusual is happening here.) Maybe things are different in other corners of the Church, but I also suspect that the internet serves to allow for the amplification of what historically has been a rather isolated event.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, rockpond said:

In addition to those who are leaving, are those like me and many others that I know:  people who are active, tithe-paying, recommend-holders who serve dutifully in callings (even leadership callings) but have lost all belief in many of the truth claims and the authority of the Brethren.  Are they understanding how many of us there are?

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that's precisely why the graphic heading reads, 'Issues and ideas leading people away from the gospel' and not 'Issues and ideas leading people away from the Church'.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that's precisely why the graphic heading reads, 'Issues and ideas leading people away from the gospel' and not 'Issues and ideas leading people away from the Church'.

people who give up altogether, church and gospel, and some even run counter to the church

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, cinepro said:

..............................................  

https://www.docdroid.net/FSgWOMk/powerpoint-on-threats-to-the-church.pdf.html#page=5 

Seem like nice, tame guidelines, the sort of set of ideas which any one of us might come up with, even though it is not clear how significant a role it has played in actual strategy for the Brethren.  Thanks, cinepro.

[Thinking]

10 hours ago, rockpond said:

For me, having pay based on their family situation, does make it seem more like a stipend than a salary.

Stipend