Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 57 minutes ago, rockpond said: This is, for me, the most fascinating of the "leaks" thus far... assuming it was actually presented to and discussed by the Q12 and FP. Ryan McKnight is also claiming that it was sent to all the GA's. I'd also be curious to know who drafted the document. From my personal observation, they seem to have a reasonably good handle on the challenges facing the church today. To critique this particular slide: It seems inappropriate to title these things as leading people away from "the Gospel" though I understand that is likely the POV of the author. The left-right designations strike me as odd -- I personally identify with issues on both the left and right of this diagram. I find the mix of issues with people to be fascinating. Side note: There were two other docs released with this one that I think many would consider to shine a very favorable light on the Church. The left/far right might have come up with asking on a survey either 'how do you identify politically on a left/right scale' or if asking leaders about problems their members have including 'if you are aware of their political persuasion, what is it' and those problems were more associated with individuals of that view. Given the rest of the comments that come in with questions, I think the layout is probably accurate. Though the blue issues apply across the board, those are likely the problems the moderates in the Church feel have the greatest impact in their lives.
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Anyone want to shed light on the "Language and Cultural Problems "-ites"" one? I'm sure the Church struggles in some areas because of cultural issues and/or language. I'm not sure what the "-ites" included may mean, though. Any ideas? I assume that it means wards and stakes can be prone to split into cultural groups that interfere with the Church's various missions. Members who don't speak the most common language of a ward are less likely to attend meetings and activities in my experience. Even political beliefs can interfere as someone with more liberal leanings may feel awkward at activities if members discuss politics a lot. Level of economic status can affect attendance, education level affects participation in my view. 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, stemelbow said: In every case I've encountered it's not Church history that has caused the incredulity, although there are plenty of reasons to doubt based on it, but the issue is more that the Church has misled by going with a more favorable sounding narrative for Church history that simply is not true added to what is the stickiness of Church history. I have encountered lots of both though the feeling of betrayal is a stronger gut impact. Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm
ksfisher Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Anyone want to shed light on the "Language and Cultural Problems "-ites"" one? I'm sure the Church struggles in some areas because of cultural issues and/or language. I'm not sure what the "-ites" included may mean, though. Any ideas? I've seen a few people be baptized into the church and then slowly fall away because of language problems. If you are an immigrant and no one in your ward or branch speaks the same language as you, church can be a lonely place. The church does a very good job of organizing branches around specific languages, but everything can't be covered. 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, stemelbow said: A survey conducted by the Church for those who leave? That'd be awesome. I'd feel greatly encouraged if the Church did that. But as history indicates I'd say the Church went more along the lines of surveying local leaders or something asking them to define the challenges they've faced with those who leave. I am more likely to believe it was leaders as I don't remember hearing of a survey of those who left and I doubt it would have been kept quiet. Got to go run errands Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm
Popular Post cinepro Posted February 28, 2017 Author Popular Post Posted February 28, 2017 18 minutes ago, stemelbow said: A survey conducted by the Church for those who leave? That'd be awesome. I'd feel greatly encouraged if the Church did that. But as history indicates I'd say the Church went more along the lines of surveying local leaders or something asking them to define the challenges they've faced with those who leave. Yeah, the Church should contact everyone who has left and ask them a bunch of questions. What could go wrong with that? Question #1: Why did you request to be put on the "Do Not Contact" list? 7
Buckeye Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 I'm disappointed that the MDDB is not given a bubble .... Seriously, though, it's odd that the CES Letter is not given a bubble. Per Google, the letter appears to have taken off in March 2015. 1
Glenn101 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 2 hours ago, cinepro said: I don't know if it's intentional, but it misframes the issue many people have with LDS history. The problem isn't "incredulity", or "unwillingness to believe." It would probably be more correct to say they are "incapable of believing" based on the current evidence. I don't think it is misconstrued. The definition includes inability to believe. But that inability is pretty much self imposed. Different shades of Dale Morgan. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, cinepro said: A recent public sharing of a PowerPoint presentation presented to the Quorum of the 12 in December of 2015 lists these "issues and ideas" (and people) who are contributing to people leaving the Church. Interesting range of issues. And why is "Robert Norman" on the list? Is it this guy? I also think the use of the term "incredulity" is misused in regards to Church history: I don't know if it's intentional, but it misframes the issue many people have with LDS history. The problem isn't "incredulity", or "unwillingness to believe." It would probably be more correct to say they are "incapable of believing" based on the current evidence. Interesting that John Dehlin was Excommunicated on February 8, 2015 and yet they still consider him an issue in December of 2015...guess kicking him out didn't really help matters Edited February 28, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
JulieM Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What is the "ites" referring to? Lamanites? What else would it mean I wonder?
Duncan Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Just now, Johnnie Cake said: Interesting that john Dehlin was Excommunicated on February 8, 2015 and yet they are still consider him an issue in December of 2015...guess kicking him out didn't really help maters I would have thought he or this Robert Norman and Snuffer would fall into the "False Prophets" category, which to me seems like they have others in mind who aren't those three men, well now I want to know who these false prophets are! I wonder what the difference is Secular and Social issues people disagree with and what's this about the Sabbath Day? are people leaving because of that? I don't understand! People there was a handout explaining what these categories' mean
Johnnie Cake Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I see. I saw it as they get a base pay (or stipend, which was revealed to be around 120,000/yr I believe from a previous leak) and get additional moneys on top of that base for dependent family. Sad we have to depend on leaks to know this information...how much better it would be for all parties involved if the church was just financially transparent 2
JulieM Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 It is interesting that there's no bubble for the CES letter, but one for a fairly unknown guy named Robert Norman 2
rockpond Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: I would have thought he or this Robert Norman and Snuffer would fall into the "False Prophets" category, which to me seems like they have others in mind who aren't those three men, well now I want to know who these false prophets are! I wonder what the difference is Secular and Social issues people disagree with and what's this about the Sabbath Day? are people leaving because of that? I don't understand! People there was a handout explaining what these categories' mean Dehlin would definitely not fall into the false prophet category. He isn't trying to proclaim any kind of religion. Denver Snuffer does, to me, seem like he would be a false prophet from their POV... I guess that's why he's way over on the "far right". I don't know anything about Norman. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: I would have thought he or this Robert Norman and Snuffer would fall into the "False Prophets" category, which to me seems like they have others in mind who aren't those three men, well now I want to know who these false prophets are! I wonder what the difference is Secular and Social issues people disagree with and what's this about the Sabbath Day? are people leaving because of that? I don't understand! People there was a handout explaining what these categories' mean My secular former Mormon friends refer to the Sabbath day as Second Saturday...but why it is an issue for leaving the church for those in the middle is beyond me 1
rockpond Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Buckeye said: I'm disappointed that the MDDB is not given a bubble .... Seriously, though, it's odd that the CES Letter is not given a bubble. Per Google, the letter appears to have taken off in March 2015. Great point... could fall into the "incredulity over Church History" bubble, I guess.
Popular Post cinepro Posted February 28, 2017 Author Popular Post Posted February 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: My secular former Mormon friends refer to the Sabbath day as Second Saturday...but why it is an issue for leaving the church for those in the middle is beyond me I suspect they're confusing "correlation*" with "cause." When people leave the Church, they tend to "break the sabbath." But that's like saying the reason I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist is because I like to play soccer on Saturdays. Sure, I like to play soccer on Saturdays, but there's a little more to it than that. Not to mention that you don't have to leave the Church to do fun stuff on Sundays. You can stay Mormon but still go skiing if you want to. *"Correlation" in the logical sense, not the LDS sense. 5
HappyJackWagon Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 1- I'm shocked there's a bubble for Robert Norman whom it appears few of us have ever heard of. We're kind of clued into this stuff, right? 2- The left/right division actually makes a lot of sense to me. I've described it that way to others myself. People on the left (unorthodox) and right (ultraorthodox) both seem dissatisfied with the church. It's the happy middle where people seem content, yet they are neither hot, nor cold. Shouldn't the lukewarm be spewed out JK, JK. 3- I find it funny that P0rn is viewed as such a major reason why people leave the church. I've never heard anyone express that as a reason for leaving. It strikes me as leaders (who were likely polled) use that as a catch all when they can't discern any other problem. 4- Regarding "incapable" versus "unwilling" in reference to incredulity- This gets to the whole matter of whether belief is a choice or not. I believe that faith is a choice but belief is not. I am not only unwilling to believe the world is flat but I couldn't choose, or make myself believe it if I tried. 4
rockpond Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, cinepro said: I suspect they're confusing "correlation*" with "cause." When people leave the Church, they tend to "break the sabbath." But that's like saying the reason I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist is because I like to play soccer on Saturdays. Sure, I like to play soccer on Saturdays, but there's a little more to it than that. Not to mention that you don't have to leave the Church to do fun stuff on Sundays. You can stay Mormon but still go skiing if you want to. *"Correlation" in the logical sense, not the LDS sense. If we look at recent addresses by the Brethren, I think it is clear that they believe a lack of sabbath day observance could lead to leaving the gospel. Whether there is data to suggest that it is a cause rather than a correlation... I don't know. But a similar point could be made with John Dehlin. Is he a "cause" or is there just a correlation in that people who listen to him either already have become or will become aware of some of the messiness surrounding the church's truth claims. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Other than Kirtland, can anyone think of another time in the history of the church when it has faced such widespread apostasy and or people resigning and leaving the church? When I left 15 years ago I felt like I was alone...when I looked at the dike...one small boy could hold back the flow...what was once a trickle now seems like a flood.... All I can say is that the 12 +3 have their hands full of a real problem and I have yet to see that they have any idea on how to manage the departure of tens of thousands of previously active members...at some point they have got to feel the pain from the depletion of tithing from this ever increasing exit Edited February 28, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, rockpond said: If we look at recent addresses by the Brethren, I think it is clear that they believe a lack of sabbath day observance could lead to leaving the gospel. Whether there is data to suggest that it is a cause rather than a correlation... I don't know. But a similar point could be made with John Dehlin. Is he a "cause" or is there just a correlation in that people who listen to him either already have become or will become aware of some of the messiness surrounding the church's truth claims. Personally I see the emphasis on Keeping the Sabbath day Holy as a doubling down on trying to focus those still in the church to become even more devout than they already are. If they can manipulate them into a more devout Sabbath they can pretty much keep them in the Mormon boat 1
rockpond Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Other than Kirtland, can anyone think of another time in the history of the church when it has faced such widespread apostasy and or people resigning and leaving the church? When I left 15 years ago I felt like I was alone...when I looked at the dike...one small boy could hold back the flow...what was one a trickle now seems like a flood.... All I can say is that the 12 +3 have their hands full of a real problem and I have yet to see that they have any idea on how to manage the departure of tens of thousands of previously active members...at some point they have got to feel the pain from the depletion of tithing from this ever increasing exit That's why I wonder who actually drafted the slide posted in the OP. I don't see evidence that the author of the presentation "gets it". In addition to those who are leaving, are those like me and many others that I know: people who are active, tithe-paying, recommend-holders who serve dutifully in callings (even leadership callings) but have lost all belief in many of the truth claims and the authority of the Brethren. Are they understanding how many of us there are? The call for inoculation by Elder Ballard (I think) was the one glimmer that I saw that made me feel like they might be understanding what's happening. 4
rockpond Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Personally I see the emphasis on Keeping the Sabbath day Holy as a doubling down on trying to focus those still in the church to become even more devout than they already are. If they can manipulate them into a more devout Sabbath they can pretty much keep them in the Mormon boat Good point. That could very well be true. Ditto with Family History which seems to be getting enormous amounts of emphasis within my stake. Edited February 28, 2017 by rockpond
JulieM Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: 1- I'm shocked there's a bubble for Robert Norman whom it appears few of us have ever heard of. We're kind of clued into this stuff, right? I agree. It makes me wonder if the author of the presentation personally knows Robert Norman or if he's had influence over a family member leaving or something. Why name him but not the CES letter that has influenced thousands? ETA: I just read on the Mormon Stories website that this power point was "created by the quorum of the twelve". They created it? I thought it was just presented to them in one of their meetings or something. Edited February 28, 2017 by JulieM
CV75 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, cinepro said: Are we allowed to link directly to the leaks? If so... https://www.docdroid.net/FSgWOMk/powerpoint-on-threats-to-the-church.pdf.html#page=5 I take "Incredulity over Church history" to mean loss of faith or unbelief in the Church's overall spiritual significance due to a negative reaction to specifics concerning her history.
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