RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Are you saying you don't believe anyone to have been resurrected yet other than Christ? Of course not. I am saying Gabriel was not the Noah of the OT, but the Noah or comforter of the New. Gabriel had not yet lived his mortal probation at the time of Yeshua so could not be resurrected. Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Of course not. I am saying Gabriel was not the Noah of the OT, but the Noah or comforter of the New. Gabriel had not yet lived his mortal probation at the time of Yeshua so could not be resurrected. Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Sorry, can't agree. TPJS 157 The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed.... He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel: he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in this day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven. I don't know where you get your idea that there are two Noahs, but Joseph Smith absolutely teaches that Noah of the OT is Gabriel. 1
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, can't agree. TPJS 157 The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed.... He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel: he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in this day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven. I don't know where you get your idea that there are two Noahs, but Joseph Smith absolutely teaches that Noah of the OT is Gabriel. I agree that Noah revealed the key of Gabriel or vice versa. You can stubbornly stand by what that passage says and accept it literally, but you will have a hard time doing that with other of JS' statements - at least as we have them - for instance that "fifty-six years should wind up the scene" for Yeshua to return. Oops, turns out that was just an opinion he aired based on his understanding. If TPJS 157 were scripture, I would look at it in a different light. The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and announced the birth of Yeshua well after Noah lived. There simply is no scripture I know of to back up JS' statement. On the other hand there is scripture which indicates he didn't fully understand it, or his statement was recorded incorrectly. For instance, we have Jesus telling us that John the Baptist was Elijah. I believe in the same way Noah is the Angel of the Lord - they turn the same gospel key, but they are not the same spirit. So is JS wrong? Not in this context. In the same way I do not believe Adam was the same spirit as the Eternal Father. He held the priesthood or scripture key. He represents a key in the divine plan which when turned opens our understanding. But did Heavenly Father actually come live a mortal probation as the mortal sinning man, Adam on this earth? Of course not. Neither was Noah the same spirit as Gabriel. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I agree that Noah revealed the key of Gabriel or vice versa. You can stubbornly stand by what that passage says and accept it literally, but you will have a hard time doing that with other of JS' statements - at least as we have them - for instance that "fifty-six years should wind up the scene" for Yeshua to return. Oops, turns out that was just an opinion he aired based on his understanding. If TPJS 157 were scripture, I would look at it in a different light. The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and announced the birth of Yeshua well after Noah lived. There simply is no scripture I know of to back up JS' statement. On the other hand there is scripture which indicates he didn't fully understand it, or his statement was recorded incorrectly. For instance, we have Jesus telling us that John the Baptist was Elijah. I believe in the same way Noah is the Angel of the Lord - they turn the same gospel key, but they are not the same spirit. So is JS wrong? Not in this context. In the same way I do not believe Adam was the same spirit as the Eternal Father. He held the priesthood or scripture key. He represents a key in the divine plan which when turned opens our understanding. But did Heavenly Father actually come live a mortal probation as the mortal sinning man, Adam on this earth? Of course not. Neither was Noah the same spirit as Gabriel. You are welcome to that belief, but I find nothing in scripture or prophetic teachings that agree with you. And as for the 56 years for Christ to return...that would have been 1890. The first time we as a Church voted to reject an ordinance.
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You are welcome to that belief, but I find nothing in scripture or prophetic teachings that agree with you. And as for the 56 years for Christ to return...that would have been 1890. The first time we as a Church voted to reject an ordinance. Please fill me in here. Don't know what that ordinance was nor the circumstances surrounding it, nor how that was supposed to represent Yeshua's return. Are you suggesting that the church began to wander at that time? Or that there was a resurrection at that time we don't know about?
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Please fill me in here. Don't know what that ordinance was nor the circumstances surrounding it, nor how that was supposed to represent Yeshua's return. Are you suggesting that the church began to wander at that time? Or that there was a resurrection at that time we don't know about? Twice Joseph stated that the return of the Savior could be as early as the end of the year (December) 1890. In September of 1890 the Church membership by Common Consent vote chose to discontinue the practice of Plural Marriage, marking their first rejection of a revelation in the last dispensation. The dropping and changing of other ordinances followed shortly after. Joseph didn't prophesy that it was a fixed time, but he did state that would be the soonest Christ could return if we were prepared. Edited March 10, 2017 by JLHPROF
RevTestament Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 21 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Twice Joseph stated that the return of the Savior could be as early as the end of the year (December) 1890. In September of 1890 the Church membership by Common Consent vote chose to discontinue the practice of Plural Marriage, marking their first rejection of a revelation in the last dispensation. The dropping and changing of other ordinances followed shortly after. Joseph didn't prophesy that it was a fixed time, but he did state that would be the soonest Christ could return if we were prepared. That event is fixed. The present Church's actions won't delay it or speed it up. It is fixed by prophesy - not Church actions.
JLHPROF Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, RevTestament said: That event is fixed. The present Church's actions won't delay it or speed it up. It is fixed by prophesy - not Church actions. The conditions that bring about the event are fixed. The time is not.
bluebell Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 21 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Twice Joseph stated that the return of the Savior could be as early as the end of the year (December) 1890. In September of 1890 the Church membership by Common Consent vote chose to discontinue the practice of Plural Marriage, marking their first rejection of a revelation in the last dispensation. The dropping and changing of other ordinances followed shortly after. Joseph didn't prophesy that it was a fixed time, but he did state that would be the soonest Christ could return if we were prepared. I thought one of the requirements for the second coming to occur was for the gospel to be preached to the whole world. How would that have been possible in 1890? 1
Ahab Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 5 hours ago, bluebell said: I thought one of the requirements for the second coming to occur was for the gospel to be preached to the whole world. How would that have been possible in 1890? Any proclamation of the gospel prefaced with a statement saying something like "Dear whole world" would satisfy that stipulation.
Stargazer Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 On 3/6/2017 at 0:40 PM, Ahab said: The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done? There's only one of you. Therefore, there's only one body in the resurrection. What if you have kidney disease and one of your kidney's is replaced by a donor kidney? Who gets it in the resurrection? Well, it's not your kidney, you're simply borrowing it. 2
Stargazer Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 On 3/7/2017 at 2:32 AM, Calm said: "It would seem that God would have need to test each of us under more circumstances than we can possibly best tested in this particular outing." I recognize this as a quote from me, and I have to say that I do not insist upon this idea. I believe it is entirely possible that Father can rightfully divine our eternal character even under the condition of a limited test.
janderich Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) On 3/6/2017 at 1:40 PM, Ahab said: The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done? First a point of clarification. I do not believe Joseph, Brigham, or Heber believed in the transmigration of souls into separate bodies. Rather, I believe that they understood it was our same spirit and body who were tested again and again. With that caveat then, we can understand what Brigham himself told us: Quote It is just so with matter. Take, for instance, a grain of sand. You can not divide it so small that it can not be divided again - it is capable of infinite division. We know nothing about how many times it can be divided, and it is just so with regard to the lives in us, in animals, in vegetation, in shrubbery. They are countless. To illustrate, you take a perfectly ripe kernel of corn - you will have some here perhaps in a few days - and if you get a glass, it does not require a very powerful one, and you take the chit of this corn and open it, you behold distinctly a stalk of corn, in that chit, a perfectly grown stalk of corn, with ears and leaves on it, matured, out in blossom, - there is the tassel, there are the ears and there is the corn! Well, you get a stronger glass and divide again, and you can see that this very chit is the grandfather of corn! We thank the scientific world for this. Well, how many lives are there in this grain of corn? They are innumerable, and this same infinity is manifest through all the creations of God. We will operate here, in all the ordinances of the house of God which pertain to this side the vail, and those who pass beyond and secure to themselves a resurrection pertaining to the lives will go on and receive more and more, more and more, and will receive one after another until they are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. This idea is very consoling." (JD 15:138) Now before you throw out the whole quote and say, "Brigham believed some crazy things" it is worth considering at least one point. We will be added upon again and again. Each successive resurrection will allow us to receive more and more until we are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. Edited March 12, 2017 by janderich
Calm Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) Are those having difficulty with multiple bodies those who believe when we are resurrected, the same atoms that were once in our mortal bodies are now in our resurrected bodies? Is that the issue? Deciding which mortal body version is the one we keep in its resurrected form in our eternal state? In essence, which face do we wear? Edited March 12, 2017 by Calm
Ahab Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 On 3/12/2017 at 7:04 AM, janderich said: First a point of clarification. I do not believe Joseph, Brigham, or Heber believed in the transmigration of souls into separate bodies. Rather, I believe that they understood it was our same spirit and body who were tested again and again. With that caveat then, we can understand what Brigham himself told us: Now before you throw out the whole quote and say, "Brigham believed some crazy things" it is worth considering at least one point. We will be added upon again and again. Each successive resurrection will allow us to receive more and more until we are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. I'm glad you think those church Presidents believed we have only one spirit and one body, ourselves. What I see in that quote you offered is more about how our bodies can be reproduced multiple and even infinite times with each part of our bodies coming from what is within our kind of DNA, or something like that, which reproduces not only our parents individual parts (like their hands, arms, feet, hair, etc) but also our own individual parts in the forms of our children. 1
Black Moclips Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 In cleaning out some folders, I found something I wrote and posted on a board long ago. It might of been ZLMB, or here or the place that shall not be named. Anyway, I thought it was kind of funny. I actually really like the idea of reincarnation. I think there is something too it, and you catch catch tidbits of it from some quotations from early church leaders. Of course it isn't taught today, but that doesn't make it untrue. In Mormon speak it would be termed "multiple mortal probations" and it seems like a much more effective learning process than having one shot at mortality. I sometimes imagine two spirits in the spirit world talking: "So where did you live?" "Oh, I was 440 AD, in Asia. I only made it to like 15 years old though. Attila the Hun slaughtered our town." "Really? That's too bad. I know how you feel though, I only made it to age 10 myself, but was sacrificed by the local priest. Mesoamerica, 700AD." "Sorry to hear that. Yeah, this life thing was pretty random. Remember all that talk about God and Jesus and stuff before we left, learning to obey them, gaining experience, learning the gospel?" "Yeah, I remember. But I never heard any of that stuff. My life was pretty short and horrible, you know what I mean?" "Same here. I never got to do any of the things I wanted to do before we left." "But I was talking to some of those missionaries that keep walking around. They say we can go to the CK if we accept the ordinances of the church." "I heard about that too. But holy crap thats gonna be a long wait. It will be forever until they get to our names" "Ha ha. We should be considered lucky. See that dude over there? Tower of babel era. Waaaay back in time." "See that group of people over there? I wonder why they are always so happy? "I was thinking that myself and went over and talked to them the other day. Turns out, they get a free pass. Straight to the CK." "What? How did they swing that? "They all died as children. They don't have to wait." "Really?" "Yep. I'm sort of pissed. I missed out by like a year and half. I sort of wish the priest in our village would have picked me sooner. I might of had a free pass myself." "Yeah, that sucks. So you think you are ready for the CK? You think you learned enough on earth for that?" "You know, its kind of weird. When I think on what I learned, I'm not sure it translates into CK material. All I really did was work, look for food, and try to stay alive. I'm not sure what the point of going down was, other than I needed to get body." "Same here. Like I said before, I didn't know anything about real the real God. We worshipped nature or something like that. It seemed reasonable at the time, but we never knew why these Gods seems mad all the time, cursing our weather and such. Seems a little foolish now thinking back."
Kenngo1969 Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Black Moclips! Long time no hear, hey?! I don't necessarily agree with your take on multiple mortal probations, but that's OK. Good to Cyber-see you!
probablyHagoth7 Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) . Edited March 22, 2017 by probablyHagoth7
dlhale Posted April 8, 2017 Posted April 8, 2017 I have had many questions through out my life that have been answered by or through this doctrine. I have read many such discusions on this topic but few use the cannonized scriptures to reveal the truth of it. There is much in the scriptures that reveals the truth of it. Starting with D&C 38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. D&C 93 and ending with 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. Ether 3 These are the "Book End" scriptures. They show how one "Generation Of Time" or "Eternal Round" begins and ends. They are actually the same event, but for different charactors. 93:38 refers to God The Father while Ether 3:14 refers to God the Son - as he Becomes the Father of the Next Eternal Round. The importance of the Atonement is that it allows the Son to become a Father and redeem all but perdition thus becoming innocent again. Proof that the Atonement allows the Son to become a Father: Before the Atonement, Christ was not like the Father: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5 After the Atonement, he is like the Father, and being like the Father makes Him the Father: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. 3 Nephi 12 He even tells us that he is the Father (of the next Generation) in Ether 3:14 above. So there it is, We have a Father and a Son, and the Son becomes a Father. The Father redeemed his children and the Son, after becoming a Father redeems his children. So, a few questions to ask: Was ther ever a Father who was not first a Son? Is there really one and only one way to becoming a Father? Does not Christ say "Come Follow Me"? Here is something else to think of: 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him--he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. 27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! D&C 76 When I read this, I can not help but feel the great sorrow of all in heaven at the lose of Lucifer. And why such great sorrow? The scripture tells us, he was a son of the mourning. what is a son of the mourning? One who, through his deligence, earns his place in the redemtion to come forth as a son in the mourning or beginning of the resurrection. What, Lucifer is a resurrected being? Yes, we all are. We were redeemed/resurrected by the Father in the beginning and wll be redeemed/resurrected again. 8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. 9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. 10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. 11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave. 12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel. 13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect. 14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness. 15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. 16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end. 2 Nephi 9
dlhale Posted April 8, 2017 Posted April 8, 2017 continued. Nephi tells us thet Death is a neccesary part of the plan of Salvation. And that death is both Physical (lose of physical body) and Spiritual (lose of spirit body). So the redemtion/resurrection spoken of in D&C 93:38 is a spiritual resurrection, we become the spirit children of the Father of this eternal round. Does not Christ say "Except ye be born again, ...". There is so much more in the scriptures on this doctrine. It is a marvelous doctriine, specially in light of: 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. 44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment— D&C 76 So, all but perdition is saved. Joseph Smith defines being saved as being placed beyond all enimies including death. Salvation is Exahltation, only through Exahltation are we beyond the reach of death. So Exahltation is for all except perdition. This is indeed marvelous doctrine.
Eek! Posted December 23, 2017 Posted December 23, 2017 (edited) On 2/27/2017 at 11:31 PM, Benjamin Seeker said: In the Nauvoo period, Joseph Smith began believed in and secretly taught something akin to reincarnation... Let the comments, insights, and debate ensue! My understanding is that we are called to become the same manner of man (or woman) that Jesus is. I do not think the intention is that we be given an "honorary degree" - I think it is intended that we actually walk the walk. In this context, I think the basic concept of multiple mortal probations is worth taking a look at. Jesus did not start out with a fullness, but rather progressed from a small capacity to a greater one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until he attained the resurrection from the dead - the same as had all the Gods before him. This may have taken him quite a while – we are told that if everything he did was written down, all the books in the world would not be able to contain it all. These statements are based on teachings from the Gospel of John, First John, Third Nephi, D&C 93, and the King Follet discourse. Obviously this is too much for one of us to accomplish in one lifetime, so in my opinion it is reasonable to expect that it will take many lifetimes. In some lifetimes, the forgiveness of our sins is about the best we can hope for (going from “grace to grace”). As we get further along, we may have lifetimes where we ace our tests (going from “exaltation to exaltation”). Once we have mastered all the courses in the curriculum, and we have become the same manner of man (or woman) as Jesus, we attain “the resurrection of the dead”. Note that, according to the sequence of events Joseph Smith taught in his most advanced teaching on the subject, the King Follet Discourse, the resurrection of the dead comes AFTER we have progressed “from exaltation to exaltation”, which imo means that we have to achieve “exaltation” not just once, but many times, presumably because IF the plan is that we literally become like Jesus, that's going to take a while. Jesus speaks of TWO KINDS of resurrection in the Book of John – the resurrection of life eternal (of which his would be an example), and the resurrection of “judgment”. The Greek word is “krisis”, and “the resurrection of crisis” would be a better translation. An even better translation comes with the insight we gain by looking at the Chinese language, where the character for “crisis” is made up of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity”. Thus, there are two kinds of resurrections: The resurrection of life eternal, and the resurrection of “danger and opportunity”. Mortal life certainly could be described as a time of “danger and opportunity”! In other words, I think the concept of reincarnation is consistent with the principle of eternal progression. Personally, I prefer the term “multiple mortal probations”, as this excludes incorrect concepts like coming back as an animal. This allows for the inequities and lack of opportunity in one lifetime to be made up for in another lifetime so that nobody gets cheated, but the wisdom and intelligence we attain in one lifetime stays with us, giving us that much advantage in the next life, this being a basic aspect of “eternal progression”. So imo there is a perspective from which all things really do work together for our good. And, this opens up the possibility that all of God's promises that do not come true in one lifetime are still in effect and will all be fulfilled (see D&C 132:55 for promises made to Joseph “in this world” that realistically could not be fulfilled in one lifetime). So while I believe it will take a very long time, I think we really are called to become the same manner of man (or woman) as Jesus, and that multiple mortal probations could be part of how this otherwise seemingly impossible calling becomes a realistic possibility. Edited December 23, 2017 by Eek!
Alaris Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 On 3/12/2017 at 7:04 AM, janderich said: First a point of clarification. I do not believe Joseph, Brigham, or Heber believed in the transmigration of souls into separate bodies. Rather, I believe that they understood it was our same spirit and body who were tested again and again. With that caveat then, we can understand what Brigham himself told us: Now before you throw out the whole quote and say, "Brigham believed some crazy things" it is worth considering at least one point. We will be added upon again and again. Each successive resurrection will allow us to receive more and more until we are crowned Gods, even the sons of God. I see that Janderich has chimed in on this topic here as well as LDSfreedomforum. I was googling MMP to get some other LDS perspectives and found this thread. Here is a recent article I wrote about a month ago which stirred up much cognitive dissonance on LDSFF. http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/12/mutiple-mortal-probations.html
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 On 2/27/2017 at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Seeker said: What follows is a thesis on the controversial doctrine from the 19th century referred to as multiple mortal probations, which fell out of favor along with Adam-God. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. The sources are quoted from boap.org and the MF0081 "Multiple Mortal Probations: LDS Related Quotes" document found at mormonpolygamydocuments.org. In the Nauvoo period, Joseph Smith began believed in and secretly taught something akin to reincarnation. Michael Quinn documented it as follows: These secret teachings coincided with teachings by Joseph that either explicity stated or implied that previously resurrected beings, essentially from a prior earth, could interact with mortals on this earth. Perhaps the clearest example of this is a statement recorded by Nauvoo saint, George Laub. He wrote that Joseph stated, "Now the history of Josephus in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws." More significantly, JS' King Follett Sermon suggests that, after the resurrection, each heir to Godhood will eventually serve as a Christ in a mortal probation. This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. This is a straight forward interpretation of the standard collated version of the sermon most often circulated, but it's made even clearer by George Laub journal summary. He wrote, "...Jesus Christ spoke in this manner; I do as my Father before me did. Well what did the Father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." Another George Laub journal entry on JS' Sermon In the Grove seems to confirm that this is how Laub understood it. He recorded, "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again." However, Laub didn't only understand that the Holy Ghost would serve as a Christ (more on that later), but he also implied that JS' King Follet Sermon taught that all who achieved Godhood would pass through the same. Laub wrote, "For we are to go from glory to glory and as one is raised to a higher, so the next under him may take his degree and so to take the exaltation through the regular channel. When we get to where Jesus is, he will be just as far ahead of us again in exaltation." The standard version of the sermon can be easily interpreted in this fashion. Here is the relevant portion: Apparently, Laub wasn't the only who understood the King Follett Sermon this way. In January of 1846, just over a year and a half after the death of JS, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball ordained each other to act as a savior. They also vicariously ordained Joseph and Hyrum to do the same. Following is the summary of the January 1846 Nauvoo Temple Record from the Multiple Mortal Probations document: Given George Laub's explicit summary of the King Follett sermon and the short time between JS' death and these ordinations performed in the Nauvoo period, it seems very likely that the doctrine underlying the ordinations originated with JS. This teaching was perhaps even canonized as, "This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law" (D&C 132:24, see vs. 22-25). However, the teaching was probably only explicitly taught to a select few. For example, in 1860, Orson Pratt wrote, "I heard brother Young say that Jesus had a body offlesh and bones, before he came (to earth and) he was born of the Virgin Mary, it was so contrary to every revelation given." Orson Pratt apparently wasn't in on it or hadn't understood it as others had. JS also gave more info about this path to exaltation, which is that the Holy Ghost, the third member in the Godhead, was going to serve as a Christ. Besides the Laub's record of JS' comment on the Holy Ghost in his summary of the Sermon on the Grove, there is an additional JS comment recorded by Franklin D. Richards in August, 1843, not that long before the King Follett Sermon. Richards wrote, "Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." From the above we can imply that JS believed that all Gods had served as Christs, that all heirs of the Celestial kingdom would serve as Christs as part of their progression from exaltation to exaltation, and that the Holy Ghost would also serve as a Christ. Here is where my thesis becomes a bit more speculative. It's my guess that JS believed that heirs of the Celestial Kingdom would not only serve as Christs, but first they would serve as Holy Ghosts. As is common knowledge, the trio of beings who participate in the creation in the temple are Michael, Jehovah, and Elohim, and these possibly represent JS' conception of the Godhead. JS taught many times that Michael stood next to Christ in authority, and he also taught that Elohim was the head of the Gods (i.e. The Father). With this possible equivalency between Micheal and the Holy Ghost in mind and JS' probable belief that all were to serve as Holy Ghosts prior to being Christs, JS likely believed the Nauvoo endowment was a representation of one stage of what each heir of the celestial kingdom was to pass through in their climb up the ladder of exaltation. Adam-God can then be seen as based on JS' teachings and the endowment, with a simple fundamental misunderstanding on the identity of Micheal in the Godhead. Considering the modern Mormon understanding of the titles Jehovah and Elohim didn't develop until long after Brigham Young, it is understandable that he could have developed his own interpretation of Micheal, Jehovah and Elohim. In fact, he attributed his identification of Michael as God the Father to JS' commentary on Daniel and JS' equivalence of Adam, Michael, and the Ancient of Days. The apparent supremacy in Daniel of the Ancient of Days to the "one like unto the Son of Man," who JS interpreted as Christ, makes Brigham's Adam-God doctrine even more understandable. That's the gist of it. Let the comments, insights, and debate ensue! I think that the idea that Joseph Smith IS the Holy Ghost would be consistent with this line of belief https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_certain_Church_leaders_claim_that_Joseph_Smith_"held_the_office_of_Holy_Ghost"%3F For what it is worth.....
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 On 2/27/2017 at 10:10 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: Ok so if we are going to be Christs of other worlds then do we have to go through all the suffering Jesus went through in Gethsemane and on the cross? Do we all have to get crucified and possibly multiple times? What I was looking forward to about eternity was the end of suffering. It's a good thing Jesus didn't think that way. I think the point is that by the time we get that far in spiritual development we will not see it as we do now, that the suffering will be for a moment for a much greater consequence for mankind. 1
Alaris Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It's a good thing Jesus didn't think that way. I think the point is that by the time we get that far in spiritual development we will not see it as we do now, that the suffering will be for a moment for a much greater consequence for mankind. Here are some good questions along these lines of thinking: Would you want to settle down in your eternal throne having never shown the greatest love by the greatest work of love? Should you receive all the Father hath without descending below all?
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