Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations

[EdGoble]

23 hours ago, Alaris said:

The purpose of mortality isn't to repent but to progress. If God allows those "lucky" enough to die before the age of accountability to become a Gods themselves then he is no longer a just God. 

 

Again, there is no reason to have another mortality to progress.  It strains logic in my mind anyway.  That is what resurrection and progress in the spirit world is for.

[EdGoble]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It is not really to work out more of their "salvation" but to progress which makes it necessary, since I believe our scriptures teach there is no progression in the 3 kingdoms of heaven. If someone is saved to the terrestrial kingdom, how does it "mock" the atonement of our Savior to allow that person to go to another world and progress? Indeed I believe it to be quite honorable, and to fulfill the scripture that the work of the Lord is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. There really is no other way. Either one can progress in the eternal worlds through eternal lives or there can be no more progression after resurrection.  

Actually the way it has been described to me by some is that a Terrestrial or Telestial person has a different destiny than a God, different tracks, as it were.  Much like a Computer Programmer is on a different track than a Medical Doctor.  They all progress eternally, from glory to glory, stage to stage, along their assigned tracks, but they are eternally locked in to those tracks upon resurrection.  The difference is, people that are not gods are eternally progressing along a track that does not include children or a spouse.  They are eternally sealed to parents and part of a family.  They have roots, but no branches, and they are used differently, and have a different kind of work, worlds without end.  A different kind of cog in the machinery, or a different kind of "worker bee" than the queen bee kind in the hive.  Therefore, with all due respect, your assumption fails, not because you are wrong about the idea of eternal progression, but because you assume that the only kind of eternal progression track available is that of a God.

[EdGoble]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:23 PM, Alaris said:

That's a great quote by Hugh Nibley and it synthesizes perfectly with my understanding of Multiple Mortal Probations. The only caveat is those new identities are sometimes a new mortal experience. Your respect is quite refreshing as I mentioned earlier that there were some on LDSFF who were vehemently opposed to MMP to the point they saw fit to attack me personally and try to discredit my character in an effort to "win" which of course belies any deeper understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I certainly have no intention to attack you personally.  I don't want to vehemently oppose MMP, because I'm not on a crusade.  I just don't believe it, and I don't believe it is part of the gospel at all, but very alien to it.  Please don't take anything I say personally or as any kind of attack.

[EdGoble]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Regardless of what you believe the Church will believe about it, I believe that if the Church does not eventually accept it, those who refuse will be cut off from the covenant. You believe the Church will never accept it, but  I believe quite the opposite - now where did that get us?

Certainly, anything that ends up being actually true is this way, but there is no evidence that this is one of the things that will end up being true.  Quite the opposite.  Yes, it only got us to the point where we disagree on this.  I hope that it is understood that this disagreement is with respect.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, EdGoble said:

Again, there is no reason to have another mortality to progress.  It strains logic in my mind anyway.  That is what resurrection and progress in the spirit world is for.

I disagree that is what resurrection is for. There is no scriptural evidence to confirm progression in the resurrection. To allow those in the celestial kingdom to progress, but not angels to progress seems a bit contradictory and unjust.  We are told angels cannot have an increase. Is the last judgment not the last judgment? How do you propose one can progress after it? However, I do concede one can progress in the spirit world. Were it not so, the vast majority of the world would be forever lost. Yet, one can find apparently contradictory scripture here as well. Doesn't the BoM strongly intimate that this life is the time we are given to progress?

1 hour ago, EdGoble said:

Certainly, anything that ends up being actually true is this way, but there is no evidence that this is one of the things that will end up being true.  Quite the opposite.  Yes, it only got us to the point where we disagree on this.  I hope that it is understood that this disagreement is with respect.

Certainly - I try to always disagree with respect for the other's position, although sometimes I get exasperated. I realize MMP challenges the greater majority of 2000 years of traditional Christian thought.  However, reasonable minds can disagree. As for evidence whether this will be accepted as being true, it goes back to my comments about Mormon interpretations of scripture, which have changed over the years. Obviously, MMP will change those generally accepted interpretations some more.

[EdGoble]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I disagree that is what resurrection is for. There is no scriptural evidence to confirm progression in the resurrection. To allow those in the celestial kingdom to progress, but not angels to progress seems a bit contradictory and unjust.  We are told angels cannot have an increase. Is the last judgment not the last judgment? How do you propose one can progress after it? However, I do concede one can progress in the spirit world. Were it not so, the vast majority of the world would be forever lost. Yet, one can find apparently contradictory scripture here as well. Doesn't the BoM strongly intimate that this life is the time we are given to progress?

Certainly - I try to always disagree with respect for the other's position, although sometimes I get exasperated. I realize MMP challenges the greater majority of 2000 years of traditional Christian thought.  However, reasonable minds can disagree. As for evidence whether this will be accepted as being true, it goes back to my comments about Mormon interpretations of scripture, which have changed over the years. Obviously, MMP will change those generally accepted interpretations some more.

Yes, it would be contradictory and unjust to not allow angels to progress.  What does progress mean?  It certainly means advancement.  It certainly means intelligence advancement, advancement in rank, advancement in honor, and advancement in privilege.  It doesn't mean eternal increase in the sense of procreation when one has forfeited eternal increase.  That as a privilege has been lost by anyone that is not a god.  That is explicit in the scriptures, worlds without end.  It is difficult in my mind to understand why someone would believe that MMP is a remedy for the loss of the privilege of procreation in eternity.  How is it that someone falling from their resurrection and dying and then being reborn a remedy for that, when resurrection is an eternal state?

It seems that a more logical remedy would be simply for there to be a pathway for a telestial or terrestrial person to simply move to a celestial state and become a god.  But that is expressly a privilege that has been lost to them.  So I struggle to understand why MMP is thought to be a remedy to this.  It makes no sense.

Are you saying that it is unjust for someone to forever lose the right to procreation in eternity?  That is not unjust.  That is just a fact that some will.

Edited March 15, 2018 by EdGoble

[RevTestament]

21 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

It would really contradict the interpretation of the word immortal that has been taught as long as I can remember (which isn't very long at all anymore).

Glenn

"Immortality" becomes a very tenuous state if one agrees to come to another earth, which scriptures teach YHWH will make. Did not everyone on the earth agree to come here? Perhaps that means we agreed to temporarily lose our promise of "immortality?" If we agreed to it, did the Lord wrong us? Even the immortal Jesus shed His prior body to come to earth for another. How are we different?

[RevTestament]

14 minutes ago, EdGoble said:

Yes, it would be contradictory and unjust to not allow angels to progress.  What does progress mean?  It certainly means advancement.  It certainly means intelligence advancement, advancement in rank, advancement in honor, and advancement in privilege.  It doesn't mean eternal increase in the sense of procreation when one has forfeited eternal increase.  That as a privilege has been lost by anyone that is not a god.  That is explicit in the scriptures, worlds without end.  It is difficult in my mind to understand why someone would believe that MMP is a remedy for the loss of the privilege of procreation in eternity.  How is it that someone falling from their resurrection and dying and then being reborn a remedy for that, when resurrection is an eternal state?

It seems that a more logical remedy would be simply for there to be a pathway for a telestial or terrestrial person to simply move to a celestial state and become a god.  But that is expressly a privilege that has been lost to them.  So I struggle to understand why MMP is thought to be a remedy to this.  It makes no sense.

Are you saying that it is unjust for someone to forever lose the right to procreation in eternity?  That is not unjust.  That is just a fact that some will.

Scripture please? Or is that all simply YOUR interpretation? You see, I don't have that interpretation. In my estimation you manage to give angels increase when scriptures say they cannot have an increase. Everything you fill in with is later Mormon interpretation. It is not scriptural. It was so ingrained that it seems many in the Church simply do not even realize that it all comes from "correlated teachings." I simply believe it is all justification to support a certain interpretation with which I happen to disagree. This is my point about "Mormon interpretation of scripture." It has been wrong before, and I believe in this case has departed from what Joseph Smith simply and clearly taught, in order to justify the old exaltation through polygamy paradigm. The polygamy paradigm has now largely been dismissed, but it has left this shell of exaltation through celestial procreation paradigm which is parodied in videos such as the Godmakers. In large measure I simply do not accept it. I understand that my position is a direct affront to many in the Church. I have seen some in the LDSFF forums vehemently denounce it and call it a doctrine of the devil, etc, yet I know in my heart they are wrong. Yet, it is the only way they can understand eternal progression within the framework given them, so it continues. While I do not fully agree with Alaris, I do commend him for being willing to debate the issue in the face of some rather stiff criticism of Church members, and I do apparently agree with him on most of the basics. The David to receive the keys will teach MMP to the Church as introduced by Joseph Smith. "Correlated" eternal progression will fade into history like the priesthood ban and other things. As this thread shows, there are others such as Benjamin Seeker who understand this paradigm and are willing to embrace it. There may be a few other members on this board with sympathies favorable to the doctrine of MMP, and I don't wish to exclude them, but most of them have probably posted on this thread. I am grateful to all who are willing to seek deeper truths than those they have been taught through Church materials, and believe the Church should make an effort to consider whether the Church is beginning to see greater light and knowledge enter the Church rather than MMP being some sort of threat to "its" truth. As Alaris points out real truth is generally not initially received well. The adversary opposes real truth, and always has worked hard throughout history to distort and suppress it. It should therefore not be surprising to those who believe in MMP that some members react so vehemently against it. Perhaps the time is coming when those members can be more open to the possibility of a new truths such as MMP, and be willing to discuss it on its scriptural merits rather than with emotionally charged rhetoric I have seen - I am not inferring this about you, but my guess is you have seen it too. 

[EdGoble]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Scripture please? Or is that all simply YOUR interpretation? You see, I don't have that interpretation. In my estimation you manage to give angels increase when scriptures say they cannot have an increase. Everything you fill in with is later Mormon interpretation. It is not scriptural. It was so ingrained that it seems many in the Church simply do not even realize that it all comes from "correlated teachings." I simply believe it is all justification to support a certain interpretation with which I happen to disagree. This is my point about "Mormon interpretation of scripture." It has been wrong before, and I believe in this case has departed from what Joseph Smith simply and clearly taught, in order to justify the old exaltation through polygamy paradigm. The polygamy paradigm has now largely been dismissed, but it has left this shell of exaltation through celestial procreation paradigm which is parodied in videos such as the Godmakers. In large measure I simply do not accept it. I understand that my position is a direct affront to many in the Church. I have seen some in the LDSFF forums vehemently denounce it and call it a doctrine of the devil, etc, yet I know in my heart they are wrong. Yet, it is the only way they can understand eternal progression within the framework given them, so it continues. While I do not fully agree with Alaris, I do commend him for being willing to debate the issue in the face of some rather stiff criticism of Church members, and I do apparently agree with him on most of the basics. The David to receive the keys will teach MMP to the Church as introduced by Joseph Smith. "Correlated" eternal progression will fade into history like the priesthood ban and other things. As this thread shows, there are others such as Benjamin Seeker who understand this paradigm and are willing to embrace it. There may be a few other members on this board with sympathies favorable to the doctrine of MMP, and I don't wish to exclude them, but most of them have probably posted on this thread. I am grateful to all who are willing to seek deeper truths than those they have been taught through Church materials, and believe the Church should make an effort to consider whether the Church is beginning to see greater light and knowledge enter the Church rather than MMP being some sort of threat to "its" truth. As Alaris points out real truth is generally not initially received well. The adversary opposes real truth, and always has worked hard throughout history to distort and suppress it. It should therefore not be surprising to those who believe in MMP that some members react so vehemently against it. Perhaps the time is coming when those members can be more open to the possibility of a new truths such as MMP, and be willing to discuss it on its scriptural merits rather than with emotionally charged rhetoric I have seen - I am not inferring this about you, but my guess is you have seen it too. 

I have no idea why you are even bringing up polygamy.  That is off topic.  I'm entirely referring to the classic LDS accepted model of exaltation.

It is followers of Denver Snuffer, for example, or others that share his paradigm, sympathizing with the so-called remnant, to whatever degree, that always usually ask for scriptural justification.  Not that you necessarily agree with everything they believe, but they usually throw that out there when they try to get mileage.  And a lot of them do believe in MMP.  They have this thing where they think that 19th century beliefs and practices ought to be restored.  This is one of them that they think that they understand.  It is a heresy that has died off for good reason, and keeps rearing its head.

I didn't consent to a scripture bash of any sort, nor does this issue interest me enough to start getting into nitty gritty of scriptural justification.  I don't ever consent anymore to getting down into a mud wrestling match of that sort, because I am not invested in this to the degree that some are.  if you know in your heart that it is wrong when they call it a doctrine of the devil, then you are bearing your testimony, and I don't accept testimony that I do not share.

In my estimation, you manage to give angels the opportunity for procreation increase when there is no avenue for that.  I see everything you are suggesting as even more unscriptural.  The adversary is actually what brings up heresy over and over again even when it isn't accepted.  The adversary is what wants heresy to be promulgated, and for it to be offered as a greater light.

With all due respect.

Edited March 15, 2018 by EdGoble

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, EdGoble said:

I have no idea why you are even bringing up polygamy.  That is off topic.  I'm entirely referring to the classic LDS accepted model of exaltation.

Well, I see that we have reached an impasse fairly quickly. However, I disagree with you that polygamy is off topic, as I explained, because Church history reveals that is where "the classic LDS accepted model of exaltation" comes from. I thought I was rather clear about it. You saying no, and my saying yes won't really help illucidate the issue.

Quote

It is followers of Denver Snuffer, for example, or others that share his paradigm, sympathizing with the so-called remnant, to whatever degree, that always usually ask for scriptural justification.  Not that you necessarily agree with everything they believe, but they usually throw that out there when they try to get mileage.  And a lot of them do believe in MMP.

It seems to me you have already pushed me into your "heretic box." As you are new to the board and just for the record I will state that I really do not know what "Snufferites" believe and I am not a follower of Denver Snuffer. I didn't even know who he was until I joined this board, and I do not believe in his spiritual experiences which led him away from the Church. I am not a member of some offshoot Church. I am a mainstream Church member with some non-mainstream views or interpretations of scripture. So bringing up Denver Snuffer is off-topic. I have held and published MMP views for 18 years which predates Snufferism I believe. I believed in MMP before I learned about the MMP label. To put it frankly I follow Yeshua the Christ. As He taught so I believe and follow.

Quote

I didn't consent to a scripture bash of any sort, nor does this issue interest me enough to start getting into nitty gritty of scriptural justification.  I don't ever consent anymore to getting down into a mud wrestling match of that sort, because I am not invested in this to the degree that some are.  if you know in your heart that it is wrong when they call it a doctrine of the devil, then you are bearing your testimony, and I don't accept testimony that I do not share.

I have not called anything a doctrine of the devil - I was referring to a post I read on another forum which referred to MMP as a doctrine of the devil. I basically believe the current Church beliefs came out of a background of belief in exaltation through polygamy, and so has retained some of that paradigm. While I believe it is in error, I believe it was simply used to fill in what the Church did not know yet, rather than it being directly attributable to Satan. I am not suggesting any "the devil made me believe it" type of thinking. I believe it evolved out of suggestions/teachings that polygamy was the path to exaltation. I am not sure why you have gotten so defensive about discussing scripture. I am willing to discuss MMP from a scriptural basis, but if you feel that is assenting to scripture bashing then it will apparently not be fruitful. For your benefit and the reader though, I would suggest perusing my other posts on this thread to understand my scriptural viewpoints. There is little need for me tor repost them. However, I do believe there are other scriptures which are consistent with or which teach MMP. I do have a testimony of MMP, and for the record I generally do not share it, because inevitably it seems to offend somebody. I learned this the first time I shared my testimony some 20 years ago that there is one who would follow Christ unto death - I was called into my bishop's office and asked to apologize - it seems I ran afoul of those who interpret all those scriptures in the past, referring to JS or someone else rather than to a future Davidic servant like Alaris does. 

Quote

In my estimation, you manage to give angels the opportunity for procreation increase when there is no avenue for that.  I see everything you are suggesting as even more unscriptural.  The adversary is actually what brings up heresy over and over again even when it isn't accepted.  The adversary is what wants heresy to be promulgated, and for it to be offered as a greater light.

With all due respect.

Perhaps you are right, but nothing is gained by stubborn insistence upon clinging to incorrect interpretations based in the past. Perhaps the Church should recall that the Jews called Jesus a heretic of the devil. If I had spoken out against the priesthood ban when I joined at 13, the Church probably would have denounced me similarly, and my heart at the time was definitely so disposed. I didn't only because I believed it possible that the Lord may have had His reasons for disallowing blacks in the priesthood - much like the Gentiles could not in the days of the Jews. I now rather feel that the Church wasn't ready to accept this truth, and so the Lord obliged the errant Church, but I acknowledge that this is my personal feeling, although the Church has come close to acknowledging it. There are many things I simply do not believe, and if the Church so wishes they can call me a heretic - it will not change my mind. I do not believe the garden of Eden was in the Americas either - forbid!! and with all due respect.

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

"Immortality" becomes a very tenuous state if one agrees to come to another earth, which scriptures teach YHWH will make. Did not everyone on the earth agree to come here? Perhaps that means we agreed to temporarily lose our promise of "immortality?" If we agreed to it, did the Lord wrong us? Even the immortal Jesus shed His prior body to come to earth for another. How are we different?

It does not appear from the scriptures that Jehovah/Jesus had a body prior to coming to earth. His spirit body is similar in form to his physical one as is evidenced by the experience of the Brother of Jared when he saw the finger of Jesus touch the 16 stones which had been chosen to give light to the interior of the Jaredite barges. (Ether 3:1-16)

Quoting relevant verses:

Quote

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Glenn

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

It does not appear from the scriptures that Jehovah/Jesus had a body prior to coming to earth. His spirit body is similar in form to his physical one as is evidenced by the experience of the Brother of Jared when he saw the finger of Jesus touch the 16 stones which had been chosen to give light to the interior of the Jaredite barges. (Ether 3:1-16)

Quoting relevant verses:

Glenn

Let's unpackj your scriptural quote: 

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Yeshua appeared to Moses and the 70 elders at Sinai. If He created man after the body of his spirit, does that mean our spirits are modeled after him or our bodies? I think it clear He is saying our bodies are modeled after His body. Now HE apparently didn't have a fleshy, mortal body, but that doesn't mean he was merely spirit. He apparently had some type of corporeal, visible, physical body.  The brother of Jared saw His pre-mortal hand. He had had body which housed His spirit. He was apparently immortal - yet came to earth and got a mortal body. How does that correlate with your interpretation of immortal?

[EdGoble]

.

Edited March 16, 2018 by EdGoble
.

[Glenn101]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Let's unpack your scriptural quote: 

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Yeshua appeared to Moses and the 70 elders at Sinai. If He created man after the body of his spirit, does that mean our spirits are modeled after him or our bodies? I think it clear He is saying our bodies are modeled after His body. Now HE apparently didn't have a fleshy, mortal body, but that doesn't mean he was merely spirit. He apparently had some type of corporeal, visible, physical body.  The brother of Jared saw His pre-mortal hand. He had had body which housed His spirit. He was apparently immortal - yet came to earth and got a mortal body. How does that correlate with your interpretation of immortal?

Your interpretation does not coincide with mine. I interpret that scripture in light of the information Joseph Smith revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8 which states:

Quote

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

I believe that Doctrine and Covenants Section 129 also has bearing on this subject. I have always understood that the spirit body looks like the physical body or maybe it is the other way around. Jesus was clear that the body that he showed to the Brother of Jared was a spirit body.  I believe that one has to do a bit of "wresting the scriptures" to have Jesus have a physical body then discard it prior to his birth to begin again as a babe. I don't see support for it in the scriptures.

Glenn

Edited March 16, 2018 by Glenn101

[EdGoble]

19 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well, I see that we have reached an impasse fairly quickly. However, I disagree with you that polygamy is off topic, as I explained, because Church history reveals that is where "the classic LDS accepted model of exaltation" comes from. I thought I was rather clear about it. You saying no, and my saying yes won't really help illucidate the issue.

It seems to me you have already pushed me into your "heretic box." As you are new to the board and just for the record I will state that I really do not know what "Snufferites" believe and I am not a follower of Denver Snuffer. I didn't even know who he was until I joined this board, and I do not believe in his spiritual experiences which led him away from the Church. I am not a member of some offshoot Church. I am a mainstream Church member with some non-mainstream views or interpretations of scripture. So bringing up Denver Snuffer is off-topic. I have held and published MMP views for 18 years which predates Snufferism I believe. I believed in MMP before I learned about the MMP label. To put it frankly I follow Yeshua the Christ. As He taught so I believe and follow.

I have not called anything a doctrine of the devil - I was referring to a post I read on another forum which referred to MMP as a doctrine of the devil. I basically believe the current Church beliefs came out of a background of belief in exaltation through polygamy, and so has retained some of that paradigm. While I believe it is in error, I believe it was simply used to fill in what the Church did not know yet, rather than it being directly attributable to Satan. I am not suggesting any "the devil made me believe it" type of thinking. I believe it evolved out of suggestions/teachings that polygamy was the path to exaltation. I am not sure why you have gotten so defensive about discussing scripture. I am willing to discuss MMP from a scriptural basis, but if you feel that is assenting to scripture bashing then it will apparently not be fruitful. For your benefit and the reader though, I would suggest perusing my other posts on this thread to understand my scriptural viewpoints. There is little need for me tor repost them. However, I do believe there are other scriptures which are consistent with or which teach MMP. I do have a testimony of MMP, and for the record I generally do not share it, because inevitably it seems to offend somebody. I learned this the first time I shared my testimony some 20 years ago that there is one who would follow Christ unto death - I was called into my bishop's office and asked to apologize - it seems I ran afoul of those who interpret all those scriptures in the past, referring to JS or someone else rather than to a future Davidic servant like Alaris does. 

Perhaps you are right, but nothing is gained by stubborn insistence upon clinging to incorrect interpretations based in the past. Perhaps the Church should recall that the Jews called Jesus a heretic of the devil. If I had spoken out against the priesthood ban when I joined at 13, the Church probably would have denounced me similarly, and my heart at the time was definitely so disposed. I didn't only because I believed it possible that the Lord may have had His reasons for disallowing blacks in the priesthood - much like the Gentiles could not in the days of the Jews. I now rather feel that the Church wasn't ready to accept this truth, and so the Lord obliged the errant Church, but I acknowledge that this is my personal feeling, although the Church has come close to acknowledging it. There are many things I simply do not believe, and if the Church so wishes they can call me a heretic - it will not change my mind. I do not believe the garden of Eden was in the Americas either - forbid!! and with all due respect.

I don't think of you as a heretic any more than I think of myself as a heretic for believing in a flavor of Evolution.  I think that you believe in something that I do not.

I observed that you have some beliefs in common with these people.  I observed that you asked for scripture justification, which is something that they do every time someone makes a statement they are in disagreement with.

[Alaris]

22 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Scripture please? Or is that all simply YOUR interpretation? You see, I don't have that interpretation. In my estimation you manage to give angels increase when scriptures say they cannot have an increase. Everything you fill in with is later Mormon interpretation. It is not scriptural. It was so ingrained that it seems many in the Church simply do not even realize that it all comes from "correlated teachings." I simply believe it is all justification to support a certain interpretation with which I happen to disagree. This is my point about "Mormon interpretation of scripture." It has been wrong before, and I believe in this case has departed from what Joseph Smith simply and clearly taught, in order to justify the old exaltation through polygamy paradigm. The polygamy paradigm has now largely been dismissed, but it has left this shell of exaltation through celestial procreation paradigm which is parodied in videos such as the Godmakers. In large measure I simply do not accept it. I understand that my position is a direct affront to many in the Church. I have seen some in the LDSFF forums vehemently denounce it and call it a doctrine of the devil, etc, yet I know in my heart they are wrong. Yet, it is the only way they can understand eternal progression within the framework given them, so it continues. While I do not fully agree with Alaris, I do commend him for being willing to debate the issue in the face of some rather stiff criticism of Church members, and I do apparently agree with him on most of the basics. The David to receive the keys will teach MMP to the Church as introduced by Joseph Smith. "Correlated" eternal progression will fade into history like the priesthood ban and other things. As this thread shows, there are others such as Benjamin Seeker who understand this paradigm and are willing to embrace it. There may be a few other members on this board with sympathies favorable to the doctrine of MMP, and I don't wish to exclude them, but most of them have probably posted on this thread. I am grateful to all who are willing to seek deeper truths than those they have been taught through Church materials, and believe the Church should make an effort to consider whether the Church is beginning to see greater light and knowledge enter the Church rather than MMP being some sort of threat to "its" truth. As Alaris points out real truth is generally not initially received well. The adversary opposes real truth, and always has worked hard throughout history to distort and suppress it. It should therefore not be surprising to those who believe in MMP that some members react so vehemently against it. Perhaps the time is coming when those members can be more open to the possibility of a new truths such as MMP, and be willing to discuss it on its scriptural merits rather than with emotionally charged rhetoric I have seen - I am not inferring this about you, but my guess is you have seen it too. 

Great post RevTestament - and thank you for your words. That MMP thread on LDSFF was extremely interesting and even enlightening (see Alma 12 below) but it's nice to see that there were others who benefited from that incredible display of contention.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

In that now infamous MMP thread on LDSFF, there was a gentleman who thought the sealed portion contained a ZION handbook and that all truth had already been revealed. I do not understand how there are so many LDS who are just closed off to receiving any new truth. The ZION handbook the sealed portion is not - the sealed portion is sealed due to:

Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

Logic has been cited here as a basis to reject MMP. Logic is great and can be used to prove MMP (I'll do that in a separate post.) The point of this post is to open minds to the possibility of MMP. 

John's full Revelation is also promised:

D&C 93:

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

So we have some overlap here, where "faith" is a prerequisite to receiving the sealed portion. D&C 93 is absolutely about MMP and aligns directly to the King Follet Sermon about how the path of the Lord is *the* path to Godhood. Just before the Lord spells this out explicitly, the Greatest of Us All stops and interjects verse 18. "By the way, if you are faithful, you will see how this is all spelled out in the full record of John." The Seven Levels of Mankind articles I've written are all derived from the promised of overcoming in Revelation which is all about how we progress along this same path to Godhood. Here are the final two promises of overcoming. Cast aside any unbelief and just read these verses!

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Since we do not have the process of how we become Gods beyond this life delineated, then why settle on what isn't or cannot be based of little to no information? Would you say we have enough information already? We have enough truth revealed?

2 Nephi 28:27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truthof God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we needno more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

The angry bit in verse 28 is very telling - in the MMP thread on LDSFF, there was a ton of anger from those saying MMP cannot be. To one who knows MMP is, this is yet another layer of evidence that it is indeed true. Casting aside a seed before planting does not necessarily mean the seed is bad:

Alma 32:28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

The "we have enough" attitude is not stagnation but regression, and unless you started bound in the chains of the devil, you will regress beyond your starting point and end up bound.

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesserportion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Faith, Repentance, Sanctification - being believing vs unbelief, Pride, Hardness of heart. The path to learning is clear - and the path of unlearning is also clear and the fruits of that latter path are anger, bitterness, and vehement rejection.

Again, the point of this post isn't to prove MMP but to demonstrate how foolish it is to close oneself off from even considering the truth when so little has been revealed as to how exactly we become Gods. I'll follow this up with some logic in a separate post.

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Alaris

[EdGoble]

20 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Great post RevTestament - and thank you for your words. That MMP thread on LDSFF was extremely interesting and even enlightening (see Alma 12 below) but it's nice to see that there were others who benefited from that incredible display of contention.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

In that now infamous MMP thread on LDSFF, there was a gentleman who thought the sealed portion contained a ZION handbook and that all truth had already been revealed. I do not understand how there are so many LDS who are just closed off to receiving any new truth. The ZION handbook the sealed portion is not - the sealed portion is sealed due to:

Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

Logic has been cited here as a basis to reject MMP. Logic is great and can be used to prove MMP (I'll do that in a separate post.) The point of this post is to open minds to the possibility of MMP. 

John's full Revelation is also promised:

D&C 93:

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

So we have some overlap here, where "faith" is a prerequisite to receiving the sealed portion. D&C 93 is absolutely about MMP and aligns directly to the King Follet Sermon about how the path of the Lord is *the* path to Godhood. Just before the Lord spells this out explicitly, the Greatest of Us All stops and interjects verse 18. "By the way, if you are faithful, you will see how this is all spelled out in the full record of John." The Seven Levels of Mankind articles I've written are all derived from the promised of overcoming in Revelation which is all about how we progress along this same path to Godhood. Here are the final two promises of overcoming. Cast aside any unbelief and just read these verses!

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Since we do not have the process of how we become Gods beyond this life delineated, then why settle on what isn't or cannot be based of little to no information? Would you say we have enough information already? We have enough truth revealed?

2 Nephi 28:27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truthof God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we needno more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

The angry bit in verse 28 is very telling - in the MMP thread on LDSFF, there was a ton of anger from those saying MMP cannot be. To one who knows MMP is, this is yet another layer of evidence that it is indeed true. Casting aside a seed before planting does not necessarily mean the seed is bad:

Alma 32:28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

The "we have enough" attitude is not stagnation but regression, and unless you started bound in the chains of the devil, you will regress beyond your starting point and end up bound.

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesserportion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Faith, Repentance, Sanctification - being believing vs unbelief, Pride, Hardness of heart. The path to learning is clear - and the path of unlearning is also clear and the fruits of that latter path are anger, bitterness, and vehement rejection.

Again, the point of this post isn't to prove MMP but to demonstrate how foolish it is to close oneself off from even considering the truth when so little has been revealed as to how exactly we become Gods. I'll follow this up with some logic in a separate post.

 

There is nothing in these scriptures that require the interpretation that you place on them.

[Alaris]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:21 AM, EdGoble said:

Again, there is no reason to have another mortality to progress.  It strains logic in my mind anyway.  That is what resurrection and progress in the spirit world is for.

I love logic - especially in regards to MMP. Here are some logical questions for you. Did Jesus gain His light through agency or was it given to Him?

1. If we LDS believe that a body is needed to progress, then why all the children who die? Do they completely circumvent this process? Is that just?

2. If we LDS believe that a body is needed to progress then how did we end up with a Savior who was able to live a perfect life without ever having lived before?

3. If we LDS believe that we could only progress so far in the spirit world, and therefore needed to come to Earth to continue our progression, then how did Jesus achieve so much light as to be the God of the Old Testament without ever having taken that step?

4. Do we believe in one path or two paths to godhood?

5. If there is one path, then why do some Gods perform an atonement and some Gods do not?

6. If Heavenly Father and Jesus performed an atonement and the Holy Ghost will go on to do the things the Son has and atone as well - then why does this look like one path? 

7. What does the other path to godhood look like for those who only ever experience one mortality? How is it different? 

8. How can these second-path beings ever be made equal to God the Father or Jesus Christ having never accomplished the Atonement?

9. If the Atonement is the greatest act of love, then why would the same God who is intelligent, powerful, and loving enough to provide a plan for us to become Gods withhold that opportunity for us to demonstrate the greatest act of love?

10. How do  the commands to be perfect as the Father and Jesus are perfect make sense if we do so by some other means?

11. Can you receive all without descending below all?

12. Could  the "second path" Gods live a perfect life in the flesh if they were given the opportunity to live again?

13. Could the "second path" Gods ever comprehend their creation without ever having descended below the creation?

14. Do the "second path" Gods have their own firstborn son(s) who atone?

15. Wouldn't those sons immediately become greater than their fathers the moment they resurrect and overcome the last enemy and inherit all having accomplished something the second path Gods never accomplished?

16. Who were the sons of the morning? Did God just infuse light into his first created souls, and if so, wouldn't his justice be void at that moment? Can God ever create someone with greater light or must they attain light the same as all Gods who have come before them?

17. How can there be two paths to Godhood when Joseph Smith said there was one?

to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith King Follett Sermon

From LDS.org: Readers should be reminded that the account of the talk was reconstructed from longhand notes taken by four brethren. It is also important to know that the Prophet’s enemies were within just a few months of bringing about his death. 

There are two important takeaways here. Number one, there were four brethren who recorded this talk. Four ... like the four gospels, there were multiple witnesses to these words. Number two, the Prophet's enemies were plotting his death already. Could this sermon - could these truths - have had a hand in the anger that eventually became a writhing mob?

"Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! would to God I could tell you what I know! but you would call it blasphemy, and there are men on this stand who would want to take my life."  Joseph Smith; Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.33

What's interesting about the above quote is that preceding the quote, Heber C. Kimball says something to the effect of, "Did we not hear Brother Joseph say the following multiple times" - I wish more would quote the context in addition to the quote. Joseph often lamented the fact he could not even tell the church leadership who he was because why? Because they would seek his life!!!!

Here is the last logic question: What on Earth could Joseph Smith have said here that would have caused such cognitive dissonance in the leadership of the followers of Joseph Smith, that he was convinced they would seek his life?

If you do not know the answers to these questions, perhaps unbelief or settling on what cannot be is not a prudent course of action, especially considering the prior post about how to receive more from the Lord.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Alaris

[Alaris]

4 minutes ago, EdGoble said:

There is nothing in these scriptures that require the interpretation that you place on them.

Thanks EdGoble for your due consideration lol

We probably have enough of an interpretation on scriptures already, wouldn't you say?  You realize the main point of the post was how to learn new truth - not what that new truth is. So ... the scriptures don't require the interpretation that I put with them? Can you be more specific or did I just witness a seed being tossed to the floor?

The revelation reference I made - I didn't even offer an interpretation. I did submit my opinion as to why Jesus interjected in D&C 93. Other than that it's pretty basic 2 Nephi 28 at play - how you must receive to receive more and once you say "we have enough" we start to lose. So, to which interpretation are you referring?

Edited March 16, 2018 by Alaris

[EdGoble]

1 minute ago, Alaris said:

Thanks EdGoble for your due consideration lol

We probably have enough of an interpretation on scriptures already, wouldn't you say?

[Glenn101]

On 3/16/2018 at 2:26 PM, Alaris said:

If you do not know the answers to these questions, perhaps unbelief or settling on what cannot be is not a prudent course of action, especially considering the prior post about how to receive more from the Lord.

I will wait until I have an official revelation through proper channels. At this point all we have is speculation by some. I personally do not see it based upon my personal reading of the scriptures.

Glenn

[Alaris]

18 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I will wait until I have an official revelation through proper channels. At this point all we have is speculation by some. I personally do not see it based upon my personal reading of the scriptures.

Glenn

The scriptures teach to seek and receive directly from the Lord. Oil in your lamp is necessary to meet the bridegroom. Those who rely on borrowed light may only get so far and may be exactly who the parable of the ten virgins is about. 

[Glenn101]

19 minutes ago, Alaris said:

The scriptures teach to seek and receive directly from the Lord.

I have and do. But I am not authorized to receive revelation for the church. MMP would seem to be such. 

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I have and do. But I am not authorized to receive revelation for the church. MMP would seem to be such. 

I am not so sure about MMP being something for the Church.  

I have come to feel that much revelation was never meant for the Church as a body and when we reach certain points in our lives we are required to come to our own understandings.  Joseph and Brigham expressed this feeling repeatedly.  

Adam-God is an example of Brigham doing this - he implied he should never have given it to the general membership, but that ir was revealed to him.  King Follett discourse teachings were another. And Joseph stated he held back many of his revelations from the Church.  There are many doctrinal truths that are not currently available in the Church.

I see no reason MMP cannot represent another deeper theological understanding only revealed in part and withheld from the Church body.  But I do think there us as much speculation as there is revelation on that topic.

The question we have to ask ourselves is whether God expects us to limit our personal study and theological understanding to that which has been revealed to the Church officially (borrowes light?) or continue to study, pray, and learn for ourselves.  Even if that means thinking and studying beyond "official" teachings.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The question we have to ask ourselves is whether God expects us to limit our personal study and theological understanding to that which has been revealed to the Church officially (borrowes light?) or continue to study, pray, and learn for ourselves.  Even if that means thinking and studying beyond "official" teachings.

That is not a question I have to ask myself. I know that we are told to read, study, ponder and pray. I am pretty sure that many of the apostles have had revelations that they are not revealing (and are not supposed to reveal) to others. I am not buying into multiple mortal probations for several reasons. It does not follow from our present scriptures.

Glenn