Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations

[strappinglad]

5 hours ago, EdGoble said:

but makes a mockery of the Atonement

Christ died and the Atonement covers ours sins. I don't understand how the Atonement would covers the sins of one probation but would be unable to cover the sins of all the probations a person went through.

[strappinglad]

Does one have to live the Law of Consecration in order to be exalted? We are not required to live it now but will we at some point? Does that also apply to polygamy? How about the scriptures that essentially forbid divorce? We are quite lax on those now. What about in the eternities?

The statement by JS about people shattering like glass over doctrines comes to mind . MMP would break a lot of glass I think.

[mfbukowski]

On 2/2/2018 at 9:19 AM, clarkgoble said:

Well obviously Jesus isn't part of it but yeah the Kabbalistic gilgul is pretty similar. All hasidic Jews believe this. Angels are treated differently though. 

The origin for both your quote and the influence in Judaism is the same - pythagorean and neoplatonic influence.

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14479-transmigration-of-souls

Yep, could not be more clear and therefore apostate. 

Quote

According to Pythagoras, who probably learned the doctrine in Egypt, the rational mind (ψρήν), after having been freed from the chains of the body, assumes an ethereal vehicle, and passes into the region of the dead, where it remains till it is sent back to this world to inhabit some other body, human or animal. 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, EdGoble said:

People receive different name/titles as they progress through different stages of their existence...  

What marks the beginning and ending of a different stage of existence? Sin (death) and repentance (born again). Worlds without end. 

[Alaris]

9 hours ago, EdGoble said:

There is no good reason to read MMP into any of the endowment.  People receive different name/titles as they progress through different stages of their existence, which is unsurprising.  Another mortality born into a different body is not one of those stages.

Tell us more about these stages and why a new name is required? How is the atonement mocked? Perhaps it is mocked by your understanding of a principle you do not believe.  Do we ever stop needing the atonement before reaching perfection ourselves? 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Alaris

[EdGoble]

12 hours ago, Alaris said:

Tell us more about these stages and why a new name is required? How is the atonement mocked? Perhaps it is mocked by your understanding of a principle you do not believe.  Do we ever stop needing the atonement before reaching perfection ourselves? 

Hugh Nibley wrote:

Quote

A cultural shock occurs when you pass from one state to the other. And the transitions are usually quite abrupt. You are born all of a sudden; you die all of a sudden. Each time you get a new name, a new rank, a new identity, a new function, a new office of priesthood or whatever it may be, you get new duties, new privileges; you become a different person. On many of these occasions, you change your name. You go not into another existence (the Egyptians would say kheper). That implies changing form without changing identity. The classic example with the Egyptians was the butterfly or the frog. A cocoon is not a caterpillar, nor is it a butterfly. The two states are the same creature, but what resemblance would you ever recognize? Even while we are here, we must give up lives. Lech lecha, which means "get up and keep going," is the title of Abraham's life in the chapters of Genesis that describe him. (Approaching Zion, pp. 298-299)

With all due respect, I believe that the atonement is mocked by the idea that people need to enter into another mortality to work out more of their salvation if they mess up too much in their first try.  This not only is relying on our own works for salvation, but a belief that the Savior's atonement and grace is insufficient to overcome whatever we do here.

[Alaris]

Hugh Nibley wrote:

  Quote

A cultural shock occurs when you pass from one state to the other. And the transitions are usually quite abrupt. You are born all of a sudden; you die all of a sudden. Each time you get a new name, a new rank, a new identity, a new function, a new office of priesthood or whatever it may be, you get new duties, new privileges; you become a different person. On many of these occasions, you change your name. You go not into another existence (the Egyptians would say kheper). That implies changing form without changing identity. The classic example with the Egyptians was the butterfly or the frog. A cocoon is not a caterpillar, nor is it a butterfly. The two states are the same creature, but what resemblance would you ever recognize? Even while we are here, we must give up lives. Lech lecha, which means "get up and keep going," is the title of Abraham's life in the chapters of Genesis that describe him. (Approaching Zion, pp. 298-299)

2 hours ago, EdGoble said:

Hugh Nibley wrote:

With all due respect, I believe that the atonement is mocked by the idea that people need to enter into another mortality to work out more of their salvation if they mess up too much in their first try.  This not only is relying on our own works for salvation, but a belief that the Savior's atonement and grace is insufficient to overcome whatever we do here.

 

Thanks EdGoble - I would like your post as well and will do so once you hit 25 if I remember to

That's a great quote by Hugh Nibley and it synthesizes perfectly with my understanding of Multiple Mortal Probations. The only caveat is those new identities are sometimes a new mortal experience. Your respect is quite refreshing as I mentioned earlier that there were some on LDSFF who were vehemently opposed to MMP to the point they saw fit to attack me personally and try to discredit my character in an effort to "win" which of course belies any deeper understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

One of the frequent complaints against MMP is the idea we keep getting "recycled" over and over until we get it right. I do not know all the ins and outs and mechanisms of MMP. Here's what I do know. There is one path to Godhood. The Holy Ghost will yet have a mortal probation as of Joseph Smith's day (I believe those quotes are in this thread but I'll paste them here for convenience.)

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized) 

The Son must achieve the Atonement before He can receive all the Father has.  There is one path to godhood - the same path all Gods take. I highly recommend a full reading of the King Follet, but in addition to supporting these truths there is even a statement about how people vehemently reject these truths--they do so, by my estimation, because they don't like the idea of having to live more than one life or the idea of endless recycling. I don't either. Regardless of my feelings, there is a truth here and it does not equate to "endless recycling" imho.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

Bear in mind this is published on lds.org. Many LDS will bend over backwards to exclude Lorenzo Snow's statement that as Man is God once was and as God is Man May Become, but Joseph Smith said pretty much exactly the same in plain language above. Here is some more language from the same sermon indicating there is one path to exaltation.

What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry “treason” and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

The last statement reinforces the truth that so many oppose these truths and do so with great vehemence. But the bolded parts are the important bits that reinforce the idea there is one path to Godhood - the path the Father took is the same Jesus took. The path Jesus took is the same the Holy Ghost will take. The same as all Gods who have gone before. This is all indisputable. The big question now is, is there a new path for us to become like Heavenly Father that doesn't include us descending below all before inheriting all? Do we become lower-case sons or must we become upper-case Sons before we can become upper-case Fathers? Or do we inherit the same by some other path and through some other works?

The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

Apparently it's the same path--isn't it? Does that sound like endless recycling or does it sound like a ladder? We LDS believe we are ordained to become Kings and Priests to God before we become Gods ourselves. Now here's the important question: Do we become Kings and Priests to other immortal resurrected beings ensuring they stay in their eternally assigned station as we learn to become Gods, or do we oversee the real progression of souls in worlds exactly like this world? We know that angels who minister to this world are bound to this world in mortality as well. In other words, we do not believe there are angels assigned to administer to this world who do not live in it at some point themselves. I submit to you that the Kings and Priests are here and now and have and do live among us. These are the great patriarchs who are on the highest of rungs of that ladder to which the Prophet Joseph Smith referred. The dispensation heads, or archangels, are the KINGS. The 144,000 has such a specific number because these PRIESTS have also ascended far up that ladder. KINGS AND PRIESTS. Sorry to use CAPS but it felt right in that moment. Endless recycling this is not - this is pointed, measured growth from smaller capacities to greater ones, and theses capacities are earned through steps and specific rewards are given through each step. I have created a separate thread that details these levels of ascension - of which there are seven including the seven archangels here:

--Removed as I kept getting failed reply, though you can search for "Seven Levels" in this forum--

Again, I do not know all the machinations of how many moralities there are or if there are more in one rung then there are in another. The temple endowment leaves huge clues. A new world patterned after the world from whence Lucifer and Michael came. The eating of the fruit is an enormous symbol given the fact we eat on the morning of the first day of the 7 day week. Our week begins with eating and with a covenant (see the seven levels threads to see how the covenants align to the levels, including the temple covenants.) The big beef many LDS have with MMP is there absolutely is a final judgement and there absolutely is an immortal, unchanging state to the resurrection. However, there was an immortal, unchanging state with Adam as well in the Garden, wasn't there? I believe Adam earned this world. He wasn't placed on it, he earned the right to stand as principal authority over this world - exclusive to this world - and he consecrated his immortal state and his immortal world for the benefit of mankind. The Law of Consecration is the last law given in the temple and is uncoincidentally aligned to the chief prince himself. The Kings and Priests oversee the ascension of younger souls.

Matthew 7:13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That certainly doesn't read like endless recycling to me. Few find the straight gate, and they embark on this path of ascension.

Here's a link straight to my first article on the Seven Levels of Mankind. There is a separate thread here on The Book of Enoch with some speculation as to why it is not canon. The D&C says the Book of Enoch will be testified of in due time - to me that doesn't sound like new canon necessarily but a testimony of the truths contained in the Book. I have shared some of my testimony on my blog, but here is an extremely relevant scripture from the Book of Enoch that aligns "eating" to MMP.

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-seven-levels-of-mankind.html

Enoch 62:14 And the Lord of Spirits will abide over them, And with that Son of Man shall they eat 
And lie down and rise up forever and ever

Edited March 13, 2018 by Alaris

[Calm]

Quote

I highly recommend a full reading of the King Follet,

Which would include children sitting on thrones eternally as children never growing...do you believe this is Truth?

Quote

But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature."

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-times-and-seasons/1#full-transcript

Edited March 13, 2018 by Calm

[Alaris]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Which would include children sitting on thrones eternally as children never growing...do you believe this is Truth?

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-times-and-seasons/1#full-transcript

I did a ctrl f for the word stature and was unable to find the word on the link you sent. I'm on my phone so my search landscape is more confined. 

I don't recall that quote being in the king follet. As I recall Brother Joseph was teaching the saints about a child resurrection in Nauvoo as it was a swampland and malaria took many children. IIRC, there was a lot of second hand information that sounded like a bad synthesis between the true principle of mmp and the saints attempting to synthesize the comforting morsels of truth with existing understanding. 

Can you give the source of the quote, or the actual page number from the link you shared, provided my search was not faulty?

[Eek!]

10 hours ago, EdGoble said:

With all due respect, I believe that the atonement is mocked by the idea that people need to enter into another mortality to work out more of their salvation if they mess up too much in their first try.  This not only is relying on our own works for salvation, but a belief that the Savior's atonement and grace is insufficient to overcome whatever we do here.

If our highest purpose and loftiest goal is to be forgiven, then one lifetime with one good dose of Atonement should be sufficient. 

If our highest purpose and loftiest goal is to become the same manner of man as Jesus, and/or if "exaltation" isn't an honorary degree bestowed on one who has not walked the walk, then the process is going to take a while.   

In this second scenario, multiple mortal probations or something similar could be part of the process, in which case we'd need the Atonement more than ever because we'd have so many more opportunities to screw up bigtime. 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Alaris said:

I did a ctrl f for the word stature and was unable to find the word on the link you sent. I'm on my phone so my search landscape is more confined. 

I don't recall that quote being in the king follet. As I recall Brother Joseph was teaching the saints about a child resurrection in Nauvoo as it was a swampland and malaria took many children. IIRC, there was a lot of second hand information that sounded like a bad synthesis between the true principle of mmp and the saints attempting to synthesize the comforting morsels of truth with existing understanding. 

Can you give the source of the quote, or the actual page number from the link you shared, provided my search was not faulty?

Itis on that page, rightside bottom, click on fill transcript,towards the end of the speech.  It may not have the identical script. You should chevk the four  notes Versions.  I may have put up a final form but gave the wrong link....brain is not fully gassed up due to drug holiday, might have to wait till I can focus again.  Words fuzzing before me and errands when I wake up so late getting to this today.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Calm

[EdGoble]

15 hours ago, Alaris said:

Thanks EdGoble - I would like your post as well and will do so once you hit 25 if I remember to

That's a great quote by Hugh Nibley and it synthesizes perfectly with my understanding of Multiple Mortal Probations. The only caveat is those new identities are sometimes a new mortal experience. Your respect is quite refreshing as I mentioned earlier that there were some on LDSFF who were vehemently opposed to MMP to the point they saw fit to attack me personally and try to discredit my character in an effort to "win" which of course belies any deeper understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I see one's time in Spirit Prison who has messed up as a "probation" and extra time for repentance.  Even for those whose calling and election is made sure must suffer, who are delivered over to the buffetings of Satan in Spirit Prison until the day of their redemption, when they turn away from the Lord after their calling and election:

Quote

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. (D&C 132:26)

The buffetings of Satan are in Spirit prison mostly, after the destruction of the flesh.  Spirit prison is where one's spirit is destroyed metaphorically, ground down by these buffetings metaphorically to its original state of humility and childlike nature, until one is made into a new creation, fit for some sort of glory.  For this process of repentance and rebuilding of one's soul in this state, it is entirely within the Spirit Prison, not in another mortality where one has no knowledge of one's previous sins, and no knowledge of what one is being punished for.

If a child is born into a mortality innocent, that means that he cannot be punished for something that he is innocent of.  If he is guilty of some terrible sin where he was consigned to another mortality as punishment to work out his salvation again, what good is it if he is already innocent of it?  Wouldn't his innocence mean that such sins have been blotted out before he became a child again?  Doesn't that mean that he is innocent and in need of no repentance?  Therefore he has no need of another mortality because he is now innocent.  Therefore the fact that a child is innocent can only mean that a child is not guilty of anything, and therefore he has not sinned in a previous mortality to be guilty.  Therefore, the innocence of children refutes the very notion that they could have been in a previous mortality to be terrible sinners in need of a new mortality.  Terrible sinners are guilty of something, and the only place that they can be reformed is a place of suffering, not a place where somehow the reset button is magically pushed and they are innocent again and not able to repent because they can't remember what they are guilty of.  Therefore, the whole notion that somehow a new mortality is a step of repentance in some way fails fundamentally and logically.

 

 

[Alaris]

2 hours ago, EdGoble said:

I see one's time in Spirit Prison who has messed up as a "probation" and extra time for repentance.  Even for those whose calling and election is made sure must suffer, who are delivered over to the buffetings of Satan in Spirit Prison until the day of their redemption, when they turn away from the Lord after their calling and election:

The buffetings of Satan are in Spirit prison mostly, after the destruction of the flesh.  Spirit prison is where one's spirit is destroyed metaphorically, ground down by these buffetings metaphorically to its original state of humility and childlike nature, until one is made into a new creation, fit for some sort of glory.  For this process of repentance and rebuilding of one's soul in this state, it is entirely within the Spirit Prison, not in another mortality where one has no knowledge of one's previous sins, and no knowledge of what one is being punished for.

If a child is born into a mortality innocent, that means that he cannot be punished for something that he is innocent of.  If he is guilty of some terrible sin where he was consigned to another mortality as punishment to work out his salvation again, what good is it if he is already innocent of it?  Wouldn't his innocence mean that such sins have been blotted out before he became a child again?  Doesn't that mean that he is innocent and in need of no repentance?  Therefore he has no need of another mortality because he is now innocent.  Therefore the fact that a child is innocent can only mean that a child is not guilty of anything, and therefore he has not sinned in a previous mortality to be guilty.  Therefore, the innocence of children refutes the very notion that they could have been in a previous mortality to be terrible sinners in need of a new mortality.  Terrible sinners are guilty of something, and the only place that they can be reformed is a place of suffering, not a place where somehow the reset button is magically pushed and they are innocent again and not able to repent because they can't remember what they are guilty of.  Therefore, the whole notion that somehow a new mortality is a step of repentance in some way fails fundamentally and logically.

 

 

The purpose of mortality isn't to repent but to progress. If God allows those "lucky" enough to die before the age of accountability to become a Gods themselves then he is no longer a just God. 

 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Alaris said:

The purpose of mortality isn't to repent but to progress. If God allows those "lucky" enough to die before the age of accountability to become a Gods themselves then he is no longer a just God. 

 

Unless the process of progression continues after death in ways we are not aware of that are sufficient to make up for any missed opportunities...perhaps we can truly become one with each other as is promised, and by doing so, not only is godly love shared, but godly knowledge and experience so we truly possess all that God has and he possesses all that we had as we possess all that each other had as if we had experienced it ourselves.  

And with that perfect knowledge, knowing as we are known, we can make the choices needed for the bindings of exaltation.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Calm

[Alaris]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Unless the process of progression continues after death in ways we are not aware of that are sufficient to make up for any missed opportunities...perhaps we can truly become one with each other as is promised, and by doing so, not only is godly love shared, but godly knowledge and experience so we truly possess all that God has and he possesses all that we had as we possess all that each other had as if we had experienced it ourselves.  

And with that perfect knowledge, knowing as we are known, we can make the choices needed for the bindings of exaltation.

Then if mortality is circumventable (I may have just made up that word) then A what's the point? B Completely unjust some get to skip out on it whichever way you look at it. 

[RevTestament]

On 3/11/2018 at 1:10 PM, Glenn101 said:

I believe that if multiple mortal probations were doctrine it would have been promulgated as a revelation and canonized in the Doctrine and Covenants.

It has. It has been in scripture for over 2500 years. It is in D & C too. Hidden right in front of the reader.

Quote

I am not worried at all about what people say that Joseph Smith may have said. It would contradict so much that has already been revealed via the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

Glenn

Not really. It contradicts interpretations of what the scriptures say, or belief about what they say. As I have indicated the doctrine does not contradict scripture, but rather scripture teaches it. Jesus Himself taught it.

[Glenn101]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Not really. It contradicts interpretations of what the scriptures say, or belief about what they say. As I have indicated the doctrine does not contradict scripture, but rather scripture teaches it. Jesus Himself taught it.

It would really contradict the interpretation of the word immortal that has been taught as long as I can remember (which isn't very long at all anymore).

Glenn

[Alaris]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

It would really contradict the interpretation of the word immortal that has been taught as long as I can remember (which isn't very long at all anymore).

Glenn

Just as Adam was immortal. He was in an immortal, unchanging state and would have been immortal forever had he not partaken. Spirit and body would never have been separated. 

There's a reason the creation has so much symbolism. The meaty truth behind the creation is not fit for the initiate. They may misconstrue measured, pointed progression with endless recycling after all

Edited March 14, 2018 by Alaris

[Rajah Manchou]

9 hours ago, Alaris said:

The purpose of mortality isn't to repent but to progress. If God allows those "lucky" enough to die before the age of accountability to become a Gods themselves then he is no longer a just God. 

Joseph's firstborn son Alvin was meant to play a leading role in the translation of the Book of Mormon, but was instead stillborn and severely malformed. I can only imagine the impact that had on Joseph. He had other children die at birth and at very young ages.

I would guess Joseph often wondered what the point of one single mortal probation would be. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Joseph's firstborn son Alvin was meant to play a leading role in the translation of the Book of Mormon, but was instead stillborn and severely malformed. 

Are you sure you are not confusing JS's son with the uncle he was named after?  Alvin the son would have only been 2 when the BoM was published if he had lived.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are you sure you are not confusing JS's son with the uncle he was named after?  Alvin the son would have only been 2 when the BoM was published if he had lived.

There was some statement (I can't find right now) by the midwife I think it was. She said the claim was that Joseph said his son would be the only one allowed to open the record. I'll look for the source.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you sure you are not confusing JS's son with the uncle he was named after?  Alvin the son would have only been 2 when the BoM was published if he had lived.

There are a few, but some are not friendly statements, even they were given under oath.

“In the Spring 1829, Harris went to Pennsylvania, and on his return to Palmyra, reported that the Prophet’s wife, in the month of June following would be delivered of a male child that would be able when two years old to translate the Gold Bible”.  – Willard Chase, 11 Dec 1833

“Joseph Smith, Jr. told him that (Smith’s) first-born child was to translate the characters, and hieroglyphics, upon the Plates into our language at the age of three years; but this child was not permitted to live to verify the prediction.” – Joshua M’Kune, 1834

Sophia Lewis… states that she heard Smith say “the Book of Plates could not be opened under penalty of death by any other person but his (Smith’s) first-born, which was to be a male.” She says she “was present at the birth of this child, and that it was still-born and very much deformed.” – Sophia Lewis, 1834

There are also claims that Joseph had told his father-in-law that a young child would be the first to see the plates.

The problem I see with these statements that seem to agree with each other is that the timeline is off. Joseph and Martin had already finished ≈116 pages of translation when the child was born. Wasn't the birth/death of Alvin the same day that Harris lost the manuscript? So if Joseph did make those claims about his son being the first to see and/or translate the record, that role for Alvin (the son) changed months before he was born.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[Eek!]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

...perhaps we can truly become one with each other as is promised, and by doing so, not only is godly love shared, but godly knowledge and experience so we truly possess all that God has and he possesses all that we had as we possess all that each other had as if we had experienced it ourselves.

And with that perfect knowledge, knowing as we are known, we can make the choices needed for the bindings of exaltation.  

If you would like to elaborate, I'm interested. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Eek!

[Alaris]

On 3/12/2018 at 9:53 PM, strappinglad said:

Christ died and the Atonement covers ours sins. I don't understand how the Atonement would covers the sins of one probation but would be unable to cover the sins of all the probations a person went through.

Read John 17 with the King Follet sermon in mind that reveals Heavenly Father was a Savior. Jesus prays to the Father about His disciples and says "thine they were" as though the Father purchased them through His atonement. The Lord differentiates His disciples from the world and explicitly states He is not praying for the world but those who the Father gave Him out of the world. The Lord states they have kept their word. I believe this is referring to the covenant they made upon entering this eternal round from the Father's having ascended to a higher capacity and a higher covenant. Anyway I highly recommend a prayer, and a pondering of John 17.

To address your comment about the law of consecration, why would such a law be given only to be exercised either in the spirit or in a resurrected body. Only a telestial sphere would provide an appropriate setting to live such a law imho, and only some form of mmp explains how we are eventually able to live it. I believe the saints failing to live the law was a deliberate indication of where they are on their own eternal progression... On the cusp but not quite the yet. Moreover there is deep symbolism in Joseph failing to establish ZION I address in the seven levels thread I created. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Alaris

[RevTestament]

 

On 3/12/2018 at 2:36 PM, EdGoble said:

I don't think exaltation is reached through polygamy.  Gratefully that too has been abandoned and has nothing to do with a modern Church.

My point is that just because something is not currently taught now doesn't mean it is not true. By the same token things previously taught are no longer accepted as true.

Quote

Exaltation is reached through obedience to covenants and commandments that we are given at this time.

I don't see why a teaching that has been abandoned like MMP, that was never fully developed, and was only believed by a few ought to be taken seriously as a candidate for truth.  It has a relatively few people that keep pushing for it on the Internet trying to popularize it.  There is no significant difference between MMP and reincarnation, and the LDS as a whole will never adopt any kind of reincarnation, regardless of who believed it or who taught it, or in which way it is packaged.

I don't think of covenants so much as something to be "obedient" to. I think of them as kind of our own law - promises we make, but I agree that they lead to exaltation - not mere obedience to commandments. 

As for MMP, the fact is that JS almost came out and said. it. To believe what he said really necessitates a need to believe MMP. I believe there are many scriptures which are consistent with it, and really simply teach it. I believe there is a significant difference between reincarnation and MMP. Reincarnation has always been used to refer to returning to this world - often in a lesser form of life. Whenever I have heard  MMP discussed it is always in the context of returning to a new world or new earth. This one is destroyed, and presumably the gospel starts over again. Regardless of what you believe the Church will believe about it, I believe that if the Church does not eventually accept it, those who refuse will be cut off from the covenant. You believe the Church will never accept it, but  I believe quite the opposite - now where did that get us?

On 3/13/2018 at 12:48 PM, EdGoble said:

... I believe that the atonement is mocked by the idea that people need to enter into another mortality to work out more of their salvation if they mess up too much in their first try.  This not only is relying on our own works for salvation, but a belief that the Savior's atonement and grace is insufficient to overcome whatever we do here.

It is not really to work out more of their "salvation" but to progress which makes it necessary, since I believe our scriptures teach there is no progression in the 3 kingdoms of heaven. If someone is saved to the terrestrial kingdom, how does it "mock" the atonement of our Savior to allow that person to go to another world and progress? Indeed I believe it to be quite honorable, and to fulfill the scripture that the work of the Lord is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. There really is no other way. Either one can progress in the eternal worlds through eternal lives or there can be no more progression after resurrection.