Benjamin Seeker Posted March 5, 2017 Author Posted March 5, 2017 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: Doctrine and Covenants 76:34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— Doctrine and Covenants 59:23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come. Doctrine and Covenants 63:48 He that sendeth up treasures unto the land of Zion shall receive an inheritance in this world, and his works shall follow him, and also a reward in the world to come. Doctrine and Covenants 88:85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation. Lest any believe that the world to come is speaking of heaven or the celestial kingdom, etc, we see here that the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel awaits the wicked in this world to come. Doctrine and Covenants 90:3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; The keys shall not be taken from who? From you in the world to come...how are you going to get in this world to come? Doctrine and Covenants 76:112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. Those limited to messenger status cannot come to where the Most High is no matter how many worlds they end up in. The only way to get there is to repent and follow. And finally, what I view as the nail "in the coffin": Doctrine and Covenants 130:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. I think it speaks for itself. You don't need any "doctrine" to believe - all you need are the scriptures. 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: For the non-LDS who only believe the Bible there are several more including: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Great efforts are made to interpret these to mean other than what they say. After reading this I feel like I just experiences some kind of esoteric initiation.
Stargazer Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 9:38 AM, Black Moclips said: I've read a couple of interesting books on reincarnation/multiple mortal probations and I actually really like the idea. It "feels" more true to me than most of Christianity's "one and done" model. If learning, progression, and the development of the soul is the reason for life, then I don't see how that is possible with just one life time. There is just too much to experience for once to be enough. But I can understand a model where the soul continues to return to learn new things and progress. Eventually, a soul could achieve relative perfection and rise to the level of becoming a savior for others. That actually seems more admirable to me - that Jesus himself "became" who he was through 1000's of lifetimes of progression and trial and error, just like the rest of us. Just being made perfect from the get-go isn't something special. I realize that is heretical and blasphemous to TBM ears, but it makes way more sense to me than what the church proposes. I'm not sure that the Church rejects this idea, rather that it doesn't teach it. For one thing, it isn't necessary to know it. What happens in any other presumed mortal probation is irrelevant to what is happening here, since you cannot affect it, and your only control is over what is happening here. That being said, I have actually come up with something like the OP's proposed doctrine independently of myself. It occurred to me a few years ago that "There is just too much to experience for once to be enough", in the sense of testing for Godhood. I've been tested in this probation to a certain extent, but when I consider how others have been tested, I wonder how I would have performed under their circumstances? It would seem that God would have need to test each of us under more circumstances than we can possibly best tested in this particular outing. In my case, having a knowledge of the theory (or speculation) of multiverses, it seems reasonable to me to suppose that we may be simultaneously undergoing testing in many mortal probations at the same time. And as for the problem of being in two or more places at the same time, perhaps it isn't a problem, since clearly God Himself is able to be pretty much everywhere at once. Heck, we don't have the slightest understanding of what our spirits are, and what capabilities we have as eternal beings, so how can we imagine that we can understand the complete extent of how God tests us? But I agree that this is not TBM doctrine, and is complete speculation. I would not teach it as doctrine in any church setting. I don't even think that I believe it is true. It's just a thought. 1
Ahab Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done?
Calm Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) "t would seem that God would have need to test each of us under more circumstances than we can possibly best tested in this particular outing." I resolve this for me by believing the 'no longer see through a glass darkly' applies in part to this. We, in the next life, will share our experiences with others and be able to realistically judge with our more effective senses/awareness and understanding of ourselves and others, of the principles of psychology and sociology and history, how we would have reacted and made choices if we had those lives. Not quite virtual reality where we experience the life as if it were our own, but close. We see ourselves in that situation and judge accurately what our choices would be. In doing so, it will have a similar effect to living that life. Perhaps in becoming one, we process everyone's life, we learn what it means to be a genius, what it means to be a vegetable with nothing but spiritual awareness, we learn what it means to be a king, a slave, a man, woman, child, someone who loves animals, someone who becomes a recluse, someone who steals to live, another who steals out of greed, we learn what it means to be a true saint, we learn the forms of charity, love, and lust in all the variations they have existed and we learn to directly connect the consequences to the choices we and others made. Someone incapable of love because of abuse will see how it is possible, understand how they can choose to feel that way if they choose to let go off somethings and take in others. Someone capable of great live will learn what it means to live without it and thus be better at reaching out to share with those who need help still, whose glass is still smudged or needs someone to whisper love until they learn to bear the actual sound and sense of being truly, totally loved. Those who never considered ever loving a man will find out how it feels and how to do so if they choose. Those who never loved a woman can do the same. Even better all will learn what it is like to love themselves because they will see the hearts and minds of those that do and thus learn they have infinite worth in others'eyes. Perhaps we even choose to expose ourselves to the monsters to see what the worse of humanity can be so we knowingly and joyfully embrace purging that aspect of the natural man from our being. And it all just keeps growing and growing as we share with more and more, take their experience and knowledge in while sending out ours to them. Repeat it as often as we desire until we become experts...we have eternity and it is just communication after all...really, really good communication, takes effort and energy, but low on other resources. Don't have to create more than one world per tens of billions. Cleanup is easy. Food source necessary unless we live off of light generated by love (unlikely, but that would be really efficient). No need to live endless lives if we have access to them from understanding and awareness of others and awareness of ourselves. Much more efficient use of time and resources and imo, explains how God is able to take really horrible lives that seem to have no purpose because who could learn as a suffering infant or mentally disabled individual? How about the whole of humanity? Would that give enough meaning to that precious, tragic, seemingly senseless life? Feeling the horror, the pain as if our own...wouldn't we learn to never inflict pain on any being again? Is that a gift some are willing to pay the cost to be able to share? And since through Christ's healing such suffering can be turned to the experience of pure joy, no harmful after effects in my view, only the knowledge necessary for the best kind of growth and life is left. I would not be surprised if the key to the Atonement is Christ stepping up and sharing his experience with us in this way, we descend with him below all things, rise above them, he allows us to learn grace for grace as we progress through his life, with him as the ultimate guide. Once successfully navigated, we are at one with him, altered and exalted by his grace. What we do not push away of Christ and the pure good of all others, but embrace...that is what expands us and binds us together as the Celestial Kingdom and to God, that which we push away as intolerable or even just discomfort, that binds us to state of being of the lesser kingdoms. Perhaps this is how we are missionaries...'please let me share with you the story of the gospel and my part in and of it'. What better wat to see the Living Church than in lives? Edited March 7, 2017 by Calm 2
Kenngo1969 Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 19 hours ago, Ahab said: The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done? Well, you know how some people think we Marminz is some kinda shape-shiftin' aliens? Kinda like that. 2
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 On 3/6/2017 at 1:40 PM, Ahab said: The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done? I will assume you are being serious. Reincarnation is not an accurate word, but is a lie propagated by evil spirits. The gospel teaches in Hebrews we only live once in this world until the judgement. Reincarnation teaches all kinds of perversions such as we may return to this world as an animal, etc. MMP means that this world ends, but we return to a new world with a new beginning in a continuation of eternal lives presumably after consenting again to the gospel plan. I don't know where you come up with the idea of multiple bodies. We would have one body in this new world just like we have in this one with one probation, but a new chance to progress. I suppose traditional Christians are forced to conclude that this is the only world that God has ever made with embodied spirits in His image, now and forever. This world will end, and the universe will end. The end. Except the Bible doesn't say that....
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 7 hours ago, RevTestament said: MMP means that this world ends, but we return to a new world with a new beginning in a continuation of eternal lives presumably after consenting again to the gospel plan. I don't know where you come up with the idea of multiple bodies. We would have one body in this new world just like we have in this one with one probation, but a new chance to progress. Your definition isn't complete because you didn't even mention the idea of multiple MORTAL probations, which is what MMP is all about. Our church teaches that after we die our spirits continue to live independent of our mortal bodies (one each) and that we remain spirits only until we are resurrected with our (what once we're mortal bodies except that they will be changed to then be immortal bodies) never again to be divided. 1
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Your definition isn't complete because you didn't even mention the idea of multiple MORTAL probations, which is what MMP is all about. Our church teaches that after we die our spirits continue to live independent of our mortal bodies (one each) and that we remain spirits only until we are resurrected with our (what once we're mortal bodies except that they will be changed to then be immortal bodies) never again to be divided. Can they be divided again if we consent to it as the only means to progress? If we don't consent, then we don't progress, and presumably yeah, they will never again be divided.... or the never again to be divided pertains to this iteration of the gospel... this creation and heaven, and not to a new one or regeneration as Jesus spoke. After all the gospel must be interpreted as a whole, and not individual pieces standing alone. And btw that phrasing came from Joseph F. Smith who imho doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to the people of Hagoth. In other words I don't believe that the Polynesians are the people of Hagoth. They were in the Polynesian islands hundreds or really about a thousand years before Hagoth. Could still be related to Manasseh though. Edited March 10, 2017 by RevTestament
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, RevTestament said: Can they be divided again if we consent to it as the only means to progress? If we don't consent, then we don't progress, and presumably yeah, they will never again be divided.... or the never again to be divided pertains to this iteration of the gospel... this creation and heaven, and not to a new one or regeneration as Jesus spoke. After all the gospel must be interpreted as a whole, and not individual pieces standing alone. Progression is all about becoming more intelligent. The glory of God is intelligence. We won't have to become mortal, again, to become more intelligent. You don't seem to understand that, yet.
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, Ahab said: Progression is all about becoming more intelligent. The glory of God is intelligence. We won't have to become mortal, again, to become more intelligent. You don't seem to understand that, yet. D&C doesn't agree with your interpretation of what I am saying. Angels for instance cannot progress to be elohim, but will forever be messengers only even in a new beginning if you are right. Let me ask it this way. Do you believe there will be more worlds? If so, do you believe God can allow us to go to these worlds if we so choose? For example if one is stuck in the realm of being a messenger/angel, can he/she volunteer to a new probation in order to become elohim? I believe the scriptures say they can - otherwise the phrase eternal lives in the eternal worlds does not make sense.
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, RevTestament said: D&C doesn't agree with your interpretation of what I am saying. Angels for instance cannot progress to be elohim, but will forever be messengers only even in a new beginning if you are right. Let me ask it this way. Do you believe there will be more worlds? If so, do you believe God can allow us to go to these worlds if we so choose? For example if one is stuck in the realm of being a messenger/angel, can he/she volunteer to a new probation in order to become elohim? I believe the scriptures say they can - otherwise the phrase eternal lives in the eternal worlds does not make sense. I see that you don't understand a lot of things and rather than trying to educate you myself I suggest that you continue to study and ponder these issues to see alternate ways of understanding the issues, and then pray to know which is right. Or you can continue to think what you think. Your choice. I will also suggest that you avoid or at least be very careful about making assumptions. Our Father can just tell you what is right.
clarkgoble Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, RevTestament said: D&C doesn't agree with your interpretation of what I am saying. Angels for instance cannot progress to be elohim, but will forever be messengers only even in a new beginning if you are right. Let me ask it this way. Do you believe there will be more worlds? If so, do you believe God can allow us to go to these worlds if we so choose? For example if one is stuck in the realm of being a messenger/angel, can he/she volunteer to a new probation in order to become elohim? I believe the scriptures say they can - otherwise the phrase eternal lives in the eternal worlds does not make sense. You're conflating senses of angel. There's a degree of glory and progression where people won't ever be more than angels. However Joseph (and the D&C) also recognize angels as classes of being who likely will become exalted one day. (Moroni, Gabriel, Michael, etc.) 1
clarkgoble Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 On 3/6/2017 at 1:40 PM, Ahab said: The biggest problem I see with the reincarnation/MMP idea is how one spirit with multiple bodies could be resurrected. Can anyone even imagine how that could be done? I think there are many issues with MMP but I confess this doesn't seem to be one of them. Why is resurrecting a being multiple times difficult? Conceptually resurrecting and de-resurrecting don't seem difficult for God. I don't see how conceiving of being resurrected twice is harder than conceiving of it happening once. Now there are of course scriptures suggesting that resurrection is permanent, but that seems a normative matter not a question of whether God could do it but merely whether God does do it.
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: I think there are many issues with MMP but I confess this doesn't seem to be one of them. Why is resurrecting a being multiple times difficult? Conceptually resurrecting and de-resurrecting don't seem difficult for God. I don't see how conceiving of being resurrected twice is harder than conceiving of it happening once. Now there are of course scriptures suggesting that resurrection is permanent, but that seems a normative matter not a question of whether God could do it but merely whether God does do it. One spirit. One body at a time. What, do you think extra bodies are just hung in a closet like clothing? IF resurrection into one body by one spirit is permanent then that spirit can't/ won't ever leave that body, otherwise it would not be permanent and instead there would be multiple deaths. (Death is when a spirit leaves a body)
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: You're conflating senses of angel. There's a degree of glory and progression where people won't ever be more than angels. However Joseph (and the D&C) also recognize angels as classes of being who likely will become exalted one day. (Moroni, Gabriel, Michael, etc.) I realize this of course. I realize that angels do progress to elohim in this probation, and actually that is my point. D&C says those who are resurrected as angels cannot inherit a greater estate. That was the point I was addressing with Ahab. That is a limiting factor on his idea of eternal progression, unless he is going to claim D&C is wrong about this. In the resurrection angels cannot become elohim. Period. Yet he asserts that I am somehow wrong. This is because he believes I must be wrong. He does not give any scripture to support his position other than the section from Joseph F Smith adopted by the Church, which I addressed. Actually, scripture refers to our Savior as the Malek/messenger of the covenant in Isaiah which is the same word translated into Angelos in the Greek which is the root for the English word angel. So the traditional idea that Angel refers to some independent type of being that doesn't have a mortal probation was proven incorrect by our Savior. Likewise the idea that a foreordained messenger/angel, cannot become Elohim in a new mortal probation is proven incorrect by the restored gospel and the existence of this probation in which angel messengers are becoming elohim unless one does not believe D&C. In other words can the angel/messenger Moroni become elohim? Clearly, D&C says he can. That only seems to make my case...so thanks.
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I realize that angels do progress to elohim in this probation, and actually that is my point. D&C says those who are resurrected as angels cannot inherit a greater estate. That was the point I was addressing with Ahab. That is a limiting factor on his idea of eternal progression, unless he is going to claim D&C is wrong about this. In the resurrection angels cannot become elohim. Period. Angel just means messenger. Many angels resurrected and not yet resurrected are married. Take Gabriel for instance. A resurrected angel. Had at least one wife. What D&C 132 refers to are those who REJECT the law of marriage cannot become Elohim and must remain as servants. And that is true.
clarkgoble Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Ahab said: One spirit. One body at a time. What, do you think extra bodies are just hung in a closet like clothing? IF resurrection into one body by one spirit is permanent then that spirit can't/ won't ever leave that body, otherwise it would not be permanent and instead there would be multiple deaths. (Death is when a spirit leaves a body) There are several issues though, a few of which I touched upon. Primarily what is the basis for saying the resurrection is permanent. I think it's a normative issue. As I said we have to distinguish between whether God could remove a resurrection and whether he does. I think it pretty hard to argue that it would be impossible for God to de-resurrect something. So at that point one wonders what the point is. At best we can debate whether could would do this and why he would do this. The main argument is from Alma 11 but of course those who appeal to Brigham Young or Heber C. Kimball would just say that Amulek had limited knowledge. The second issue is more the theology of bodies. Of course mortal bodies are made up of molecular parts with most of those parts changing each year. Are resurrected bodies likewise made up of parts? We don't know. In fact we know almost nothing about resurrected bodies so anything we said would be pure speculation. If they are made up of parts then of course there are no extra bodies merely extra molecules. An other way of looking at this is that the question ends up being the same as, "can a resurrected person change their appearance?" Alma 11 and other such things suggest our resurrected body looks like us. But what does that mean? Can I change my hair color? Can I make myself look like now, middle aged and slightly out of shape, or how I did at 25, thin and athletic? If I don't like my nose can I change it? If a resurrected body is made of parts (as I assume it is) then of course one assumes it's possible. The reality is though that as I said we don't know what resurrected bodies are made of. We know they resemble us and we get told enough that they don't have blood although that suggests a pretty different system. (Presumably no breathing so if there are lungs they aren't necessary) It's not at all clear if a resurrected body is made of regular matter or not. We know spirits aren't (or at least have a pretty good indication they're not) Ultimately to argue against multiple resurrections outside of scriptures saying it doesn't happen is just to argue about what a resurrected body is. And we just don't know. (In saying all this again I'm not espousing MMP -- I think it almost certainly an incorrect doctrine with no basis beyond perhaps wishful thinking out of spiritualism and perhaps some misunderstanding of Joseph's use of probations) Edited March 10, 2017 by clarkgoble 1
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Angel just means messenger. Many angels resurrected and not yet resurrected are married. Take Gabriel for instance. A resurrected angel. Had at least one wife. What D&C 132 refers to are those who REJECT the law of marriage cannot become Elohim and must remain as servants. And that is true. I am not sure what point you are trying to dispute. But, no, Gabriel is not a resurrected angel, but he will be resurrected with a wife.
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I am not sure what point you are trying to dispute. But, no, Gabriel is not a resurrected angel, but he will be resurrected with a wife. What makes you say that?
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: What makes you say that? He is the Malek with the name of YHWH in him.
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: There are several issues though, a few of which I touched upon. Primarily what is the basis for saying the resurrection is permanent. I think it's a normative issue. As I said we have to distinguish between whether God could remove a resurrection and whether he does. I think it pretty hard to argue that it would be impossible for God to de-resurrect something. So at that point one wonders what the point is. At best we can debate whether could would do this and why he would do this. The main argument is from Alma 11 but of course those who appeal to Brigham Young or Heber C. Kimball would just say that Amulek had limited knowledge. The second issue is more the theology of bodies. Of course mortal bodies are made up of molecular parts with most of those parts changing each year. Are resurrected bodies likewise made up of parts? We don't know. In fact we know almost nothing about resurrected bodies so anything we said would be pure speculation. If they are made up of parts then of course there are no extra bodies merely extra molecules. As an aside, I believe we will be able to change our appearance after we have been resurrected, kinda like having plastic surgery. I just don't believe we will be able to change our family history, like changing our parents or chain of parental authority, otherwise there would be a lot of chaos. Like, no, yeah I was born as your son Peter but I was also born as your great grandmother Eleanor and then as your cousin Michael. And then I was born as a cow, and then a dog. And see? I still have all of those elements in my resurrected body. I just hope I'm not resurrected as a stupid person, or a cat.
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, RevTestament said: He is the Malek with the name of YHWH in him. Ok, I'll admit, I have no idea what the heck that means. Gabriel is Noah, the archangel. And I believe him to be a resurrected being and an angel.
Ahab Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: What D&C 132 refers to are those who REJECT the law of marriage cannot become Elohim and must remain as servants. And that is true. If by the "cannot become Elohim" part you mean they will not be able to have children like our Father (and Mother) who can, then yes that is true. And there is nothing wrong with anyone being a servant of others, helping or trying to help other people. It's just that by not having a spouse or any children of our own we won't have anyone in our own families to help, aside from our parents and brothers and sisters and their families.
RevTestament Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Ok, I'll admit, I have no idea what the heck that means. Gabriel is Noah, the archangel. And I believe him to be a resurrected being and an angel. Noah means comforter. Gabriel is the comforter. 93 And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together. 94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it. 95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled; 96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven— 98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Noah means comforter. Gabriel is the comforter. 93 And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together. 94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it. 95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled; 96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven— 98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God. Are you saying you don't believe anyone to have been resurrected yet other than Christ?
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