JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: Great scriptures above, the bible is just amazing! Of all people I'm sure you, JLHPROF, know the difference between the LDS and the EV's view on how one becomes a child of God. According to the LDS everyone is born a child of God. To the EV's one becomes an adopted child of God through faith in Jesus. Huge difference! But EV's seem to have little reason to want to be an "adopted child of God". They don't believe they will become a God as he does. They don't believe they will rule and reign. They don't believe they will inherit his power and glory. What is the hope? To enter his presence and spend eternity praising his name with no other work, learning, progression? EV's don't believe God created other worlds if I remember correctly so there is no hope of an increase in numbers (just this earth's inhabitants alone). EV's don't believe in eternal families so there is no hope of living as a family unit. EV's don't believe in men becoming God's, that God is a stagnant creature and we will likewise be stagnant. No learning, no purpose, no family, no glory, no blessings other than being there. I just don't know what it is that an EV would be looking forward to. The "Beatific Vision" or the EV equivalent sounds awful to me.
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: According to the LDS everyone is born a child of God. According to Paul in the New Testament as well. He taught a bunch of pagans in Rome that they, unbelievers, were the offspring of God. 3
Jane_Doe Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Mormonism is no different than any other religion out there (except Christianity). In all these religions, basically have to obey a set of rules or do certain deeds (ordinances, temples, works) to become closer to God, or so that you may become acceptable to God, or so that God will love you. In doing this you earn your way to the celestial kingdom where God lives. Also in Mormonism, everyone is basically "saved", no one goes to hell. Christianity flips all of that upside down. Christ did all of the word for us, paid it forward or up front. By accepting his free gift of "salvation", he comes into us and changes us. Our works are the product of being changed by Jesus. All of the work is done for the glory of God, not to earn our way to heaven. This is an inaccurate representation of LDS and most other Christian faiths. I've spent years studying various Christian faiths (usually attended a dozen different denominations a year) and I have never met one that thought our works save us (including LDS, JW, Catholic, Orthodox, Christian Scientists, etc). No one faith I have studied (including non-Christians) beliefs you need to "earn" the love of God. What Christian faiths vary on is what a person should do about the fact that God loves them and saves them. . 3
Ahab Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Maestrophil said: Hi all. A few years ago, I was speaking with a protester at a church event. He was EV Christian. He was shocked when I said that I was only saved through the grace of Christ alone, and my works did nothing towards my salvation, but were rather a fruit of my love for him. He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? I am interested in hearing your views - both those who believe what the EV man was saying as well as faithful LDS. Why are the temple ordinances either necessary, or an abomination? Thanks! MP The more fruit, the better!!!
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: This is an inaccurate representation of LDS and most other Christian faiths. I've spent years studying various Christian faiths (usually attended a dozen different denominations a year) and I have never met one that thought our works save us (including LDS, JW, Catholic, Orthodox, Christian Scientists, etc). No one faith I have studied (including non-Christians) beliefs you need to "earn" the love of God. What Christian faiths vary on is what a person should do about the fact that God loves them and saves them. . Please define "saved" for me, I'm sure this would help me understand your take.
Jane_Doe Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: Please define "saved" for me, I'm sure this would help me understand your take. That is another thing that varies across Christendom . Which denomination would you like a sum-up of?
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, bluebell said: According to Paul in the New Testament as well. He taught a bunch of pagans in Rome that they, unbelievers, were the offspring of God. EV's would disagree, we are adopted, or we become children of God. What scripture are you referring to?
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: That is another thing that varies across Christendom . Which denomination would you like a sum-up of? Funny...., how about the LDS definition.
Jane_Doe Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: Funny...., how about the LDS definition. I'd assume that you'd be familiar with it, since you're on an LDS forum. Do you really want to rehash things, or did you want me to address questions you might have, or compare it to the EV view? (Trying to avoid redundant conversation).
Ahab Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, snowflake said: Funny...., how about the LDS definition. I'll offer something to build on. As a latter-day saint my personal understanding of salvation is all about being saved from how I would be if I didn't have any of our Lord's help to help me be a better person. And by our Lord's help I am referring to what he does and has done himself as well as what he does and has delegated that others do in his name and with his authority. Say for example that all I had to work with were evil influences from Satan and my own fallen nature, which is all any of us would have without our Lord's power and influence in our lives. Whether I am saved perfectly from every evil influence, not having any desire to do anything evil, or whether I am only saved to a lesser degree, still with some unrighteousness in me but not as bad as I could be. The degree to which I am saved is all about how much and how far I give in to allow our Lord to work with me to help me become as he is and wants me to be. Edited February 21, 2017 by Ahab
CV75 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Disagree. We are saved by grace. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. We are all Christ's inheritance from the Father and ALL of us will be saved except the son of perdition. But not all will be saved in the same kingdom. Our saved condition, whether it be Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, whether it be to rule and reign or as a ministering servant, our saved condition is what is determined by our obedience. But we are ALL getting resurrected, ie "Saved". That is the free gift. All that is required beyond grace is our acceptance that Christ is Lord and Savior. And scripture tells us that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Only perdition will completely reject the free gift, and lose their salvation. But resurrection is an ordinance. Ordinances are covenants (bindings). As such (as with the creation), the resurrection is the binding of spirit and element, and they are performed under priesthood keys (the paragraph with footnote 6, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng ). If salvation (resurrection) were by grace alone, Jesus wouldn't have mentioned the keys. Binding and loosing are works performed as ordinances. While we are resurrected only (as in "ultimately") by grace, we are not resurrected by grace "alone" since there is a requisite work or ordinance associated with it. This is why and how I think every knee shall bow and every tongue confess: otherwise, "No resurrection (grace) for you!" Edited February 21, 2017 by CV75 1
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Funny...., how about the LDS definition. Here's the basic definition- "To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ." 1
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, CV75 said: But resurrection is an ordinance. Ordinances are covenants (bindings). As such (as with the creation), the resurrection is the binding of spirit and element, and they are performed under priesthood keys (the paragraph with footnote 6, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng ). If salvation (resurrection) were by grace alone, Jesus wouldn't have mentioned the keys. Binding and loosing are works performed as ordinances. While we are resurrected only (as in "ultimately") by grace, we are not resurrected by grace "alone" since there is a requisite work or ordinance associated with it. This is why and how I think every knee shall bow and every tongue confess: otherwise, "No resurrection (grace) for you!" Fair enough. I can go with this. Of course it takes more than grace to perform the gift of resurrection. It is absolutely a priesthood ordinance. But the worthiness requirement isn't any work other than accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.
Jude2 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 I look at the temple as the blessings we receive for being a good and faithful servant and not a work. 3
halconero Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: There are questions statements like that raise for me. Not objections, but questions. You state grace allows us to repent. The time to repent is limited to this life. Does that mean grace ends at death? I don't think it does. I like the idea that the ordinances are "portals of grace". We broke the laws and only through the grace of God is there a path back. So does completing the ordinances provided when we are so imperfect show God's grace? I'd like to think so. It might be better to say that grace enables rather than allows us to repent. The end of repentance is forgiveness and the penitent may be strengthened in their efforts to turn from sin. I would definitely say that the ordinances are one way whereby God's grace is shown. 100%. With regards to repentance being limited to this life, I have mixed feelings on it, especially after a recent read through D&C 138. President Smith says that those who repent will be redeemed through the vicarious ordinances of the house of the lord. 1
Bobbieaware Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, snowflake said: Great scriptures above, the bible is just amazing! Of all people I'm sure you, JLHPROF, know the difference between the LDS and the EV's view on how one becomes a child of God. According to the LDS everyone is born a child of God. To the EV's one becomes an adopted child of God through faith in Jesus. Huge difference! So me putting all of my complete faith and hope in Jesus makes me a son of God, ensuring all the wonderful promises God offers me are already guaranteed! John chapter 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. When we receive Jesus, we become the sons of God, we are not born as sons of God, again, big difference. Galatians 3: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. We Latter-Day Saints do indeed believe we are the literal spirit sons and daughters of God. But you also need to understand that as a consequence of being made subject to the fall, which fall irrevocably (that is, without Christ) cuts us off from the previous relationship we once enjoyed with the Father, we also firmly believe we must be adopted by Christ in order to be saved and have that pre-fall relationship with the Father restored, and then enlarged and amplified through the infinite and eternal atonement. In other words, we believe both of these gospel principles are true. Edited February 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
CV75 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Fair enough. I can go with this. Of course it takes more than grace to perform the gift of resurrection. It is absolutely a priesthood ordinance. But the worthiness requirement isn't any work other than accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. Cool! I do think that accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is no easy task. The righteous are always opposed in this life, and the rebellious in the end will find the simple work of bowing and confessing extremely difficult to finally bring themselves to perform. I wondered, how can someone bow the knee and confess with the tongue when they haven't yet been resurrected. Either it is figurative (the spirit's work in the spirit world with a spirit body) or literal, something which is done for them by themselves in this life or by proxy in the temple while he awaits in the spirit world. Those who are endowed of course have the advantage of already bowing and confessing and so are well-prepared for the resurrection ordinance. Perhaps this bowing and confessing by proxy is another example of "we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect." And then the resurrection ordinance must also be performed by someone with a resurrected body, certainly doing something that someone as a spirit, no matter how righteous, can do on his own, another inter-dependency between the living and the dead (and the resurrected!). Except Jesus when He was resurrected, having life within Himself, but perhaps His Father performed that ordinance.
Maestrophil Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 This is all such great stuff! Are there any EVs out there who are willing to chime in? I would like to better understand why someone would think the temple is unscriptural and/or heretical.
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Cool! I do think that accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is no easy task. The righteous are always opposed in this life, and the rebellious in the end will find the simple work of bowing and confessing extremely difficult to finally bring themselves to perform. I wondered, how can someone bow the knee and confess with the tongue when they haven't yet been resurrected. Either it is figurative (the spirit's work in the spirit world with a spirit body) or literal, something which is done for them by themselves in this life or by proxy in the temple while he awaits in the spirit world. Those who are endowed of course have the advantage of already bowing and confessing and so are well-prepared for the resurrection ordinance. Perhaps this bowing and confessing by proxy is another example of "we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect." And then the resurrection ordinance must also be performed by someone with a resurrected body, certainly doing something that someone as a spirit, no matter how righteous, can do on his own, another inter-dependency between the living and the dead (and the resurrected!). Except Jesus when He was resurrected, having life within Himself, but perhaps His Father performed that ordinance. I still see grace as the only thing that saves us, and anything that shows how much we are saved as "fruit". The grace of Jesus Christ and our Father, specifically. The gift(s) of the Holy Ghost is part of what I would include as the/some fruit. So, for example...our own baptism, if we are baptized appropriately, is fruit that shows that we are/were willing to be obedient to God's command that we be baptized. Likewise, the gift of the Holy Ghost, as I said, is also fruit. Likewise, being sealed to a spouse and/or our children is also some fruit. Etc. Not that we are saved by our fruit. Our fruit(s) simply show how much we are and have been saved.
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Maestrophil said: This is all such great stuff! Are there any EVs out there who are willing to chime in? I would like to better understand why someone would think the temple is unscriptural and/or heretical. Snowflake isn't a member and thinks the temple is unscriptural/heretical. Maybe he'll post more.
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 22 hours ago, snowflake said: EV's would disagree, we are adopted, or we become children of God. What scripture are you referring to? Sorry, i forgot about this question. It's in Acts chapter 17. Paul is preaching to the pagan Romans on Mars Hill. He tells the group "we are the offspring of God." For the record, LDS also believe that we must be adopted into God's family, but we believe it is by being adopted by Christ specifically that we covenant with Him and gain access to salvation. That is why the BOM often refers to Christ as the Father. God the Father is the Father of our spirits but Christ becomes our adopted Father when we covenant with Him. But everyone is a son or daughter of God, whether saved or not. That is what we believe separates us from all of God's other creations. That is why we are special to Him even if we have never heard the name of Christ or choose specifically not to believe. We are His offspring and not just HIs creation. 2
CV75 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Ahab said: I still see grace as the only thing that saves us, and anything that shows how much we are saved as "fruit". The grace of Jesus Christ and our Father, specifically. The gift(s) of the Holy Ghost is part of what I would include as the/some fruit. So, for example...our own baptism, if we are baptized appropriately, is fruit that shows that we are/were willing to be obedient to God's command that we be baptized. Likewise, the gift of the Holy Ghost, as I said, is also fruit. Likewise, being sealed to a spouse and/or our children is also some fruit. Etc. Not that we are saved by our fruit. Our fruit(s) simply show how much we are and have been saved. But an ordinance doesn't show how much we are saved; it is not a fruit. I think grace and keys (or ordinances) are as intertwined as faith and knowledge. We receive an ordinance, receive grace in exercising or keeping it, get more ordinances (and keys) as we progress along.
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, CV75 said: But an ordinance doesn't show how much we are saved; it is not a fruit. I think grace and keys (or ordinances) are as intertwined as faith and knowledge. We receive an ordinance, receive grace in exercising or keeping it, get more ordinances (and keys) as we progress along. Hmm. Still seems like fruit to me. I guess we see things differently.
snowflake Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 22 hours ago, Maestrophil said: This is all such great stuff! Are there any EVs out there who are willing to chime in? I would like to better understand why someone would think the temple is unscriptural and/or heretical. Biblically speaking the NT church was not involved in any form of temple ordinances. Some of the Apostles were teaching at the Jewish temple but they were not doing anything whatsoever resembles current LDS temple ordinances. Again, it appears that Joseph just made the temple ordinances up after joining the Masons, which is fine, but don't claim it as a "restoration" of the NT church practices.
snowflake Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 4:37 PM, JLHPROF said: But EV's seem to have little reason to want to be an "adopted child of God". They don't believe they will become a God as he does. They don't believe they will rule and reign. They don't believe they will inherit his power and glory. What is the hope? To enter his presence and spend eternity praising his name with no other work, learning, progression? EV's don't believe God created other worlds if I remember correctly so there is no hope of an increase in numbers (just this earth's inhabitants alone). EV's don't believe in eternal families so there is no hope of living as a family unit. EV's don't believe in men becoming God's, that God is a stagnant creature and we will likewise be stagnant. No learning, no purpose, no family, no glory, no blessings other than being there. I just don't know what it is that an EV would be looking forward to. The "Beatific Vision" or the EV equivalent sounds awful to me. Wow, JHLPROF, where do you come up with this stuff? If this is your understanding of heaven, is not consistent with the bible whatsoever.
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