Temple work vs Grace

[Maestrophil]

35 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Suppose that someone were to ask you to "Jump for joy".  Would that mean they want you to jump, in order to somehow obtain joy, or jump because you already have joy?

Likewise, be baptized because you already have the remission of sins.

Seems like a big linguistic stretch to me personally. And what of Mark 16:16?

 

50 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

John 6:54 cannot be a reference to the LDS sacrament because according to LDS theology, no one can have eternal life until after the final resurrection.

Which plainly disagrees with what the savior plainly says - "hath eternal life".

Again, you have to choose between LDS theology and what Jesus Christ plainly says.

I wasn't insinuating that it had to be the LDS sacrament.  It does say that if they partake of his flesh and blood - a work - they have eternal life.  And again, you could twist things linguistically, but that is interpretation and no longer fact.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Maestrophil

[FormerLDS]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Seems like a big linguistic stretch to me personally. And what of Mark 16:16?

If you place a wedding ring on your finger, does that make you married or merely outwardly symbolize something that happened within between two people?

Likewise there is a baptism which takes place the moment one believes that is not immersion in water, but a washing of the water of the Word inwardly.  Water baptism merely symbolizes outwardly that washing that took place the moment one received eternal life within.

[FormerLDS]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I wasn't insinuating that it had to be the LDS sacrament.  It does say that if they partake of his flesh and blood - a work - they have eternal life.  And again, you could twist things linguistically, but that is interpretation and no longer fact.

Eating the flesh and blood of the savior isn't a literal act which would then truly be a work.  Rather, it is that which takes place the moment one opens the door and allow Jesus Christ to enter.

Consider Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

When you open the door of your heart to the savior, He indwells you through belief in His word and acceptance of His gift of eternal life similar to the process of allowing food to enter your body ("sup with him").

Jesus Christ is the bread of life and everlasting water.  Those who desire eternal life and receive Him will never hunger again.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If you place a wedding ring on your finger, does that make you married or merely outwardly symbolize something that happened within between two people?

Likewise there is a baptism which takes place the moment one believes that is not immersion in water, but a washing of the water of the Word inwardly.  Water baptism merely symbolizes outwardly that washing that took place the moment one received eternal life within.

That is not really accurate. The physical baptism represents the body rising out of the sea of the world, and is for the physical resurrection of the body. 

Baptism by the spirit in the laying on of hands is the internal renewal of the soul or being born again spiritually.

The evangelical idea that we don't need a physical immersion in water is false. All the apostles did it.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Eating the flesh and blood of the savior isn't a literal act which would then truly be a work.  Rather, it is that which takes place the moment one opens the door and allow Jesus Christ to enter.

 

Consider Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

 

When you open the door of your heart to the savior, He indwells you through belief in His word and acceptance of His gift of eternal life similar to the process of allowing food to enter your body ("sup with him").

 

Jesus Christ is the bread of life and everlasting water.  Those who desire eternal life and receive Him will never hunger again.

 

This is also incorrect. Rev 3:20 does not apply to the sacrament instituted by Yeshua. The sacrament is to be done in remembrance of Him - this is where the Catholics get it wrong, and essentially resacrifice Him on the table. 

"If ye do this not, you will have no part in me." And that relates to a simpler ordinance. Jesus clearly commanded His apostles to continue the practice in remembrance of Him. 

[Vance]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 and the "goats" in Matthew 25 truly thought they were obeying his commandments, doing good, on the right path, etc during their mortal lives, but in reality they were not.

Just because they "thought" it or "said" it doesn't make it true.  They clearly were not obedient to Jesus and therefore in no way qualify for His promise of eternal life.

1 Jn. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

You can actually feel the shock and surprise in their answer to the savior:

Not at all.   Claiming obedience and good works are not the same as actually having done them.  You do know that liars don't receive eternal life right?

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

“Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?” Matthew 25:44

Ah, listen to the excuses.

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” Matthew 7:22  

Again, saying it doesn't make it true.

 

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If you do not have eternal life then you do not have the Son and cannot not DO His will.

You have it backwards,

1 Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Plus, there are these to consider,

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Jn. 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn. 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[FormerLDS]

12 hours ago, Vance said:

Just because they "thought" it or "said" it doesn't make it true.  They clearly were not obedient to Jesus and therefore in no way qualify for His promise of eternal life.

1 Jn. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Not at all.   Claiming obedience and good works are not the same as actually having done them.  You do know that liars don't receive eternal life right?

Ah, listen to the excuses.

Again, saying it doesn't make it true.

 

You have it backwards,

1 Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Plus, there are these to consider,

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Jn. 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn. 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The Jesus Christ of the Bible offers the promise of a physical eternal life with Him after mortality, but only for those who receive His free gift of eternal life spiritually during mortality.

Hence, those who have Jesus Christ have eternal life and vice versa.  There are those on this earth who have eternal life and those who do not.

The LDS "Jesus Christ" has never given eternal life to anyone.  Why?   

[FormerLDS]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

That is not really accurate. The physical baptism represents the body rising out of the sea of the world, and is for the physical resurrection of the body. 

Baptism by the spirit in the laying on of hands is the internal renewal of the soul or being born again spiritually.

The evangelical idea that we don't need a physical immersion in water is false. All the apostles did it.

For clarity, what I said was 100% accurate according to the Bible but not accurate according to the LDS interpretation of the Bible.

For example, many people received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 10 without ever being baptized or having hands laid upon them. 

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”  Acts 10:44-47

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

This is also incorrect. Rev 3:20 does not apply to the sacrament instituted by Yeshua. The sacrament is to be done in remembrance of Him - this is where the Catholics get it wrong, and essentially resacrifice Him on the table. 

"If ye do this not, you will have no part in me." And that relates to a simpler ordinance. Jesus clearly commanded His apostles to continue the practice in remembrance of Him. 

Perhaps you misunderstood my intent; Revelation 3:20 has nothing to do with a physical supper or sacrament just as the "door" isn't a physical door that Jesus is knocking on.

Those who hear His voice - His word - and open the door of their heart through belief are those who sup with Him spiritually allowing His flesh and blood to enter through belief.

Again, those who have Jesus Christ within them have eternal life.

As a Latter-day Saint, does it bother you at all to know that your "Jesus Christ" has never given anyone eternal life?

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Perhaps you misunderstood my intent; Revelation 3:20 has nothing to do with a physical supper or sacrament just as the "door" isn't a physical door that Jesus is knocking on.

Those who hear His voice - His word - and open the door of their heart through belief are those who sup with Him spiritually allowing His flesh and blood to enter through belief.

Again, those who have Jesus Christ within them have eternal life.

As a Latter-day Saint, does it bother you at all to know that your "Jesus Christ" has never given anyone eternal life?

Sure he has - all those resurrected with Him have received it. Members of the Church have also received the promise and will receive eternal life so long as they remain faithful, which by your moniker seems to put you outside this category. Hearing His word implies following it - which the other churches do not do. They speak with their lips but do not follow Him. They deny baptism, laying on of hands, and many other aspects of His word. I know Him, and I know the other churches are the adulterous daughters of Babylon so good luck to you in the next resurrection - you will need it without true baptism which you have turned your back on. 

[RevTestament]

15 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

For clarity, what I said was 100% accurate according to the Bible but not accurate according to the LDS interpretation of the Bible.

For example, many people received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 10 without ever being baptized or having hands laid upon them. 

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”  Acts 10:44-47

Yeah. See that part in red there? Peter is saying they should get physically baptized by water. 

The Holy Ghost can descend on anyone who is feeling Christ, and witness to them. If this were not so no one would find the truth. You are teaching a false gospel my friend.

[FormerLDS]

17 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Sure he has - all those resurrected with Him have received it. Members of the Church have also received the promise and will receive eternal life so long as they remain faithful, which by your moniker seems to put you outside this category. Hearing His word implies following it - which the other churches do not do. They speak with their lips but do not follow Him. They deny baptism, laying on of hands, and many other aspects of His word. I know Him, and I know the other churches are the adulterous daughters of Babylon so good luck to you in the next resurrection - you will need it without true baptism which you have turned your back on. 

The point is that the Jesus Christ of the Bible offers and give eternal life during mortality - today - to anyone who believes.

Those who have the Son have that life and those who do not "shall not see life" but the wrath of God abides on them.  

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”  John 3:36

[FormerLDS]

17 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yeah. See that part in red there? Peter is saying they should get physically baptized by water. 

The Holy Ghost can descend on anyone who is feeling Christ, and witness to them. If this were not so no one would find the truth. You are teaching a false gospel my friend.

Where in this text do you read anything about "feeling Christ"?

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”  Acts 10:44-47

They heard the Word of God, believed and immediately received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  THEN they were baptized.

Again, the Bible simply does not agree with LDS theology.

[Anakin7]

    FORMER LDS -  Anakin 7 here [ Former Methodist, Fundamentalist Independent Baptist ] I have been gone for a period of time and have not had a chance to read through this entire thread but have had a few brief moments to read your personal concerns for LDS and The Doctrines/ Teachings / of the Restored Gospel found within Kingdom Mansion  of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, thank you for your thoughts. In reading your posts I get the impression that you are of The belief that one has to do nothing but confess and mentally believe in Jesus to be saved. I take it you adhere to once saved always saved [correct me if this is incorrect, I apologize in advance if I am wrong] . 

 The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Anakin7

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The point is that the Jesus Christ of the Bible offers and give eternal life during mortality - today - to anyone who believes.

 

Yes He does to those who follow Him. His offer remains open to those who live His commandments.

Quote

Those who have the Son have that life and those who do not "shall not see life" but the wrath of God abides on them.  

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”  John 3:36

No offense, but you read the scriptures like a Greek person, and not a Hebrew person. The Hebrew was about action - not just moving your lips.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[RevTestament]

11 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Where in this text do you read anything about "feeling Christ"?

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”  Acts 10:44-47

They heard the Word of God, believed and immediately received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  THEN they were baptized.

Again, the Bible simply does not agree with LDS theology.

Why do you think the spirit descended on them? Because they were thinking wickedness? They were pondering the truth of the word, and the spirit witnessed to them of its truthfulness. That is indeed a gift. However, without the physical baptism this witness is not promised to continue. They would have no promise that the spirit would always be with them. In other words the gift of the Holy Ghost would not be permanent. That is what the laying on of hands does - it makes the gift permanent. Read about Paul's conversion. You will find his conversion included the laying on of hands.

[Anakin7]

    For FORMER LDS on Believing and Obeying Jesus Christ to Be Saved -   http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

    FORMER LDS -  Anakin 7 here [ Former Methodist, Fundamentalist Independent Baptist ] I have been gone for a period of time and have not had a chance to read through this entire thread but have had a few brief moments to read your personal concerns for LDS and The Doctrines/ Teachings / of the Restored Gospel found within Kingdom Mansion  of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, thank you for your thoughts. In reading your posts I get the impression that you are of The belief that one has to do nothing but confess and mentally believe in Jesus to be saved. I take it you adhere to once saved always saved [correct me if this is incorrect, I apologize in advance if I am wrong] . 

 The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

Hello friends,

All I can say is that as an active, dedicated member of good standing I thought that I was doing all that I could do and I was on the correct path toward eternal life.  By the grace of God, Jesus Christ was able to reach through all of my vain efforts and worthy behavior and show me the truth and for the first time in my life I allowed eternal life to be a gift that I could receive right now.  I chose to believe His words.  I have been born into a new family with a new father and there is nothing that can be done to ever undo that birth or take that away.

I heard the voice of the savior through the reading of His words.  I chose to believe His words.  That's really it. 

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Yes He does to those who follow Him. His offer remains open to those who live His commandments.

No offense, but you read the scriptures like a Greek person, and not a Hebrew person. The Hebrew was about action - not just moving your lips.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

Is eternal life a free gift or a reward?

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Why do you think the spirit descended on them? Because they were thinking wickedness? They were pondering the truth of the word, and the spirit witnessed to them of its truthfulness. That is indeed a gift. However, without the physical baptism this witness is not promised to continue. They would have no promise that the spirit would always be with them. In other words the gift of the Holy Ghost would not be permanent. That is what the laying on of hands does - it makes the gift permanent. Read about Paul's conversion. You will find his conversion included the laying on of hands.

Regardless, you will have to admit, according to what the Bible plainly says, they heard the Word of God, believed and immediately received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

As an LDS Christian, you are consistently forced to believe LDS interpretation rather than what the Bible plainly says.

Hence, I'm a former member because I have chosen to believe the Bible, not LDS interpretation and doctrines. 

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Is eternal life a free gift or a reward?

Knowing how to get it is more valuable than knowing how to label it.

What do you think you must do to be saved?

[FormerLDS]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Knowing how to get it is more valuable than knowing how to label it.

What do you think you must do to be saved?

Believe on Him that Justifies without any worthy behavior whatsoever.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:4-5

There is a "reward" that will be given to those who will try in vain to earn eternal life, but that reward will be even more debt, not forgiveness.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Believe on Him that Justifies without any worthy behavior whatsoever.

 

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:4-5

 

There is a "reward" that will be given to those who will try in vain to earn eternal life, but that reward will be even more debt, not forgiveness.

The best way to learn from Paul is to follow his life to learn what he did.  Not just what he said, but also what he did. Like going to Ananius in Damascus to be baptized and get the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of his hands.  And then to go to the apostles to get their authorization to teach the gospel to the Gentiles and oversee their progress.

Anybody can pull a scripture out of context to make any point they want to make and the way you preach the gospel shows that you do not understand the first principles and ordinances.

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The best way to learn from Paul is to follow his life to learn what he did.  Not just what he said, but also what he did. Like going to Ananius in Damascus to be baptized and get the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of his hands.  And then to go to the apostles to get their authorization to teach the gospel to the Gentiles and oversee their progress.

Anybody can pull a scripture out of context to make any point they want to make and the way you preach the gospel shows that you do not understand the first principles and ordinances.

Does it ever bother you that in order to get the Bible to agree with LDS theology, one must inevitably resort to a contextual argument and name calling because the Bible clearly contradicts LDS theology?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, FormerLDS said:

Does it ever bother you that in order to get the Bible to agree with LDS theology, one must inevitably resort to a contextual argument and name calling because the Bible clearly contradicts LDS theology?

The Bible can be understood and interpreted in many, many, many different ways, so it's a bit silly for you to say the Bible clearly contradicts LDS theology when it can clearly be understood to be part of the same theology.

Maybe you just can't see it that way.