Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: For clarity, what I said was 100% accurate according to the Bible but not accurate according to the LDS interpretation of the Bible. For example, many people received the Gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 10 without ever being baptized or having hands laid upon them. “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Acts 10:44-47 It is clear that you do not understand what the gift of the holy ghost is.
Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Perhaps you misunderstood my intent; Revelation 3:20 has nothing to do with a physical supper or sacrament just as the "door" isn't a physical door that Jesus is knocking on. Those who hear His voice - His word - and open the door of their heart through belief are those who sup with Him spiritually allowing His flesh and blood to enter through belief. Again, those who have Jesus Christ within them have eternal life. As a Latter-day Saint, does it bother you at all to know that your "Jesus Christ" has never given anyone eternal life? Where does it say that by opening your heart you have eternal live?
Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The point is that the Jesus Christ of the Bible offers and give eternal life during mortality - today - to anyone who believes. Those who have the Son have that life and those who do not "shall not see life" but the wrath of God abides on them. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 You have changed this verse to say 'he that believeth only...'. Matthew 19:16-22 add obedience to the list. Luke 10:26-27 adds loving your neighbor. John 6:54 adds the sacrament. I suppose it troubles me that your Jesus does not care if you murder, rape, or become (heavens forbid) a mormon. So long as you believe in him. Of course, this all encompassing solution includes Satan. You ignore all the verses that mention the role of works and focus on taking verses out of context. If you love me, he teaches, keep my commandants. In other words, if you are not keeping his commandments, you do not love him. If you do not obey, you will be caste out.
Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Is eternal life a free gift or a reward? A free gift requires no effort at all, which means you do not even have to believe in him. Lets put it this way, is eternal life a reward for believing in him? Matt 5:12, 6:1;6:4; 10:42; Romans 4:4; 1 Cor 3:8; 2 John 2:8
Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Hello friends, All I can say is that as an active, dedicated member of good standing I thought that I was doing all that I could do and I was on the correct path toward eternal life. By the grace of God, Jesus Christ was able to reach through all of my vain efforts and worthy behavior and show me the truth and for the first time in my life I allowed eternal life to be a gift that I could receive right now. I chose to believe His words. I have been born into a new family with a new father and there is nothing that can be done to ever undo that birth or take that away. I heard the voice of the savior through the reading of His words. I chose to believe His words. That's really it. You mean your own interpretation. You do understand that the vast majority of Christians disagree with you. It also appear that you were missing the point of obedience. We are here to learn the lifestyle of heaven. Eternal life is a gift, but it is up to us how this gift benefits our life. Nothing is to be gained by simply believing. We need to make it a part of our life. God created us as creatures that learn through action. If believing where all that was necessary, then those regions of the United States that are predominantly evangelical would have the most Christlike citizens. The reality is, quite the opposite is true. They have the highest crime rates and lowest levels of education. Those regions that are Catholic and Mormon have the lowest crime rates and highest levels of education.
Freedom Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Does it ever bother you that in order to get the Bible to agree with LDS theology, one must inevitably resort to a contextual argument and name calling because the Bible clearly contradicts LDS theology? you mean, like you do? How profoundly hypocritical. The biblical teaching of salvation is very clear and the vast majority of Christians seem to get it. If you could prove your position, the entire planet would believe as you believe. Nobody has a problem with gravity, electricity, or meteorology because these can be proven. The vast majority of Christians have a problem with your interpretation because it cannot be proven and it requires ignoring the teachings of the Savior on the matter. 3
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Anakin7 said: For FORMER LDS on Believing and Obeying Jesus Christ to Be Saved - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Former LDS, True LDS Doctrine Is Christian and Biblical, one must understand the anchient middle eastern Biblical understanding of the words . Grace, Faith and the problems that the Lord Jesus Christ, his anointed apostles were dealing with, especially James, John and Paul. Not the 16th century till now reformational/evangelical understanding. Take for example my link above by an evangelical who is honest enough to state that Believing and Obedience go in complete concert with one another. May you receive True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis]. Salvation is absolutely free 2 Nephi 2:4 but it Costs you your very Life - Luke 14:25-35. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 28, 2017 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) The LDS Evangelical in me, a question for FORMERLDS, Which group are you in ? http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited March 1, 2017 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 In response to the worthiness concerns of LDS by FORMERLDS see - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 8:45 AM, FormerLDS said: The Jesus Christ of the Bible offers the promise of a physical eternal life with Him after mortality, but only for those who receive His free gift of eternal life spiritually during mortality. Nah, I will trust what the Bible says about it more than what you say about it. Hey, what ever happened to that "sola scriptura" stuff that you never follow? On 2/28/2017 at 8:45 AM, FormerLDS said: Hence, those who have Jesus Christ have eternal life and vice versa. There are those on this earth who have eternal life and those who do not. Nah, I am quite sure the Bible has it right and that you don't. After all, you don't have eternal life IF YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!!!!! On 2/28/2017 at 8:45 AM, FormerLDS said: The LDS "Jesus Christ" has never given eternal life to anyone. Why? The Bible tells me that it is the promise of eternal life that is given. 1 Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 1 Tim 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Perhaps you don't believe the Bible. I do.
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 3:07 PM, Freedom said: Where does it say that by opening your heart you have eternal live? Nowhere in the Bible.
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 11:41 AM, FormerLDS said: Is eternal life a free gift or a reward? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that eternal life is a free gift. Does a gift become any less of a gift if it is given as a reward for good behavior? 1
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) On 2/27/2017 at 4:04 PM, FormerLDS said: Eating the flesh and blood of the savior isn't a literal act which would then truly be a work. Rather, it is that which takes place the moment one opens the door and allow Jesus Christ to enter. Consider Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." When you open the door of your heart to the savior, He indwells you through belief in His word and acceptance of His gift of eternal life similar to the process of allowing food to enter your body ("sup with him"). Jesus Christ is the bread of life and everlasting water. Those who desire eternal life and receive Him will never hunger again. Matt 26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 1 Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. Sounds more literal than you are allowing. Edited March 4, 2017 by Vance
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Oops, there it that word "promise" associated with something eternal.
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 2:09 PM, FormerLDS said: Does it ever bother you that in order to get the Bible to agree with LDS theology, one must inevitably resort to a contextual argument and name calling because the Bible clearly contradicts LDS theology? Considering your knowledge of what the Bible actually says, it doesn't bother me at all that our theology doesn't agree with what you claim about the Bible.
Gervin Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Vance said: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that eternal life is a free gift. Does a gift become any less of a gift if it is given as a reward for good behavior? Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" If you examine the words "gift" and "reward" in the Greek, you'll notice distinct differences. The writer of this passage was clear in the use of the word for "gift" (charisma - χάρισμα, ατος, τό).
RevTestament Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 10:46 AM, FormerLDS said: Regardless, you will have to admit, according to what the Bible plainly says, they heard the Word of God, believed and immediately received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. As an LDS Christian, you are consistently forced to believe LDS interpretation rather than what the Bible plainly says. Hence, I'm a former member because I have chosen to believe the Bible, not LDS interpretation and doctrines. You just believe a false Protestant interpretation which excludes all the other verses outside of Paul which don't agree with their interpretation. When one reads and includes those, then it is quite clear the LDS Church has it right, and they have adopted a reading which is way to literalist and exclusionary.
dberrie2000 Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/27/2017 at 4:53 PM, FormerLDS said: If you place a wedding ring on your finger, does that make you married or merely outwardly symbolize something that happened within between two people? Likewise there is a baptism which takes place the moment one believes that is not immersion in water, .... Hi Former: Repentance and water baptism was taught from the beginning of the gospel--for the remission of sins: Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV) 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV) 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Questions for Former: Were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins? How does God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them who repent and are water baptized--fit faith alone theology? It fits LDS theology just fine, IMO.
dberrie2000 Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/24/2017 at 3:45 PM, FormerLDS said: Is a "reward" something that is given in recognition of one's service, effort or achievement? Likewise, Olympic medals aren't "gifts". A couple of points here: 1) According to the testimony of the Savior--rewards are given in accordance with works: Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV) 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 2)By the same principle--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts: Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version (KJV) 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Please do notice they were His servants to begin with, and were later cast into outer darkness--according to what they had done with the gifts. Also--please do notice--those who magnified their gifts--were termed "faithful"--connecting what we do with the gifts as integral to the term faith.
dberrie2000 Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/24/2017 at 0:28 PM, FormerLDS said: If you do believe Jesus Christ, then you would have His free gift of eternal life already. The "free gift" came upon all men--when Christ finished it, not when we add our faith to it: Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The "free gift" is an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by absolving mankind from the automatic condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. I liken that to a college--the presence of a college offers all men the opportunity to be educated(and let's not take that for granted--there are still places where a college is not present in the world)--but to obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria the college sets. The same principle pertains to the Atonement--it gives all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life, as a free gift--but to inherit Life, as a personal reception--one must obey the criteria the Redeemer sets: Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV) 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 2
Vance Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 18 hours ago, Gervin said: Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" If you examine the words "gift" and "reward" in the Greek, you'll notice distinct differences. The writer of this passage was clear in the use of the word for "gift" (charisma - χάρισμα, ατος, τό). That is strange, because according to this, http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleStrongsNumber.aspx?stgno=G1435 the word is δῶρον (dōron). And not exactly what I would call a "free" gift. That doesn't seem much different from reward (ἀποδίδωμι, apodidōmi) as used in here, http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleStrongsNumber.aspx?stgno=G591
Freedom Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/1/2017 at 8:13 PM, Gervin said: Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" If you examine the words "gift" and "reward" in the Greek, you'll notice distinct differences. The writer of this passage was clear in the use of the word for "gift" (charisma - χάρισμα, ατος, τό). Sorry, where does it say free? There is no christian religion that teaches it is free. Even this passage says you are saved through faith. The cost of the gift is faith. 1
Freedom Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/2/2017 at 3:43 AM, dberrie2000 said: The "free gift" came upon all men--when Christ finished it, not when we add our faith to it: Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The "free gift" is an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by absolving mankind from the automatic condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. I liken that to a college--the presence of a college offers all men the opportunity to be educated(and let's not take that for granted--there are still places where a college is not present in the world)--but to obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria the college sets. The same principle pertains to the Atonement--it gives all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life, as a free gift--but to inherit Life, as a personal reception--one must obey the criteria the Redeemer sets: Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV) 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Excellent point. I might improve upon your example by saying that the college education is free, but the degree requires you to do your homework and take exams. The two flaws in the evangelical interpretation is that they add 'only' i.e. you are saved by grace only, and they require gifts to be 100% free but they contradict this by saying you need to accept Jesus in your heart first as if this is not a cost. But of course, they go further by saying that you have to accept the 'correct' jesus which means you must first study the new testament before you can open you heart. They tend to talk in circles. 1
Anakin7 Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) Greek word for Faith is pistis = allegiance,commitment,confidence,dedication,devotion,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust. Faith =pistis is a ancient middle eastern covenant word which involves the totality of a persons life to someone or something, in the scriptures it is directed to God, Jesus Christ. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing my Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited March 3, 2017 by Anakin7
Maestrophil Posted March 4, 2017 Author Posted March 4, 2017 FormerLDS. I was away on a business trip. I missed a lot of dialog. I don't agree with those who say you are preaching a false doctrine. You are very honestly and bravely answering my question of why you believe the way you do, and it is very helpful for me to see your point of view. I thank you. While I agree with others here that the Bible itself can be interpreted a myriad of ways, there is nothing I have heard in your interpretation that doe snot seem well reasoned according to your faith, and I commend you for it. MP 1
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