Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, snowflake said: I just can't agree with you that what Adam and Eve did was right. I think they knew it was wrong before hand. God told Adam specifically in Genesis 2:17 for him not to eat the fruit or they would die. God never says if you eat this fruit you will become wise, God never says you will know good and evil, God never says you will become as gods, these were all lies from the serpent. You're not understanding the scriptures. And you're not understanding that without a knowledge of good and evil, which they could get from that tree even though yes God told them to not eat from it, that Adam and Eve would not have known who was giving them the best advice. Whover wrote Genesis already knew that the person who told Adam and Eve to not eat from that tree was God and that God was the one forbidding them to eat from that tree, but how do you suppose Adam and Eve would have known who was giving them that good command or that the command was good? They didn't have knowledge of good and evil, or know what the difference between good and evil was, and they were told by that person that they should not get that knowledge from that tree. And on the other hand they later had someone else tell them there would be benefits from eating fruit from that tree. Hmm. Who to listen to? Who was good? What was good? And what was evil? Looking back hindsight is 20/20 and we have a writer telling us who was God and who was Satan. Put yourself in their place, though. How would you have known who you should listen to? Edited February 24, 2017 by Ahab
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 16 minutes ago, snowflake said: I just can't agree with you that what Adam and Eve did was right. I think they knew it was wrong before hand. God told Adam specifically in Genesis 2:17 for him not to eat the fruit or they would die. Note: no one is saying that they didn't transgress here. What we are saying is that the Fall was part of God's master plan from the beginning and works for our good. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 0:07 PM, Maestrophil said: Hi all. A few years ago, I was speaking with a protester at a church event. He was EV Christian. He was shocked when I said that I was only saved through the grace of Christ alone, and my works did nothing towards my salvation, but were rather a fruit of my love for him. He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? I am interested in hearing your views - both those who believe what the EV man was saying as well as faithful LDS. Why are the temple ordinances either necessary, or an abomination? Thanks! MP It's easy for LDS Christians to make claims like "my works did nothing towards my salvation", but isn't that being a bit deceitful? You know good and well that eternal life is the highest form of salvation, and, according to LDS doctrine, "eternal life" is totally dependent upon your obedience to the commandments. So, "my works did nothing towards my salvation", do you not consider "eternal life" to be salvation? When EVs use the term "salvation" they mean what LDS refer to as "eternal life" because, according to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, "eternal life" is a door prize freely given during mortality, not a reward of worthy behavior given after death. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 To EVs, "resurrection" from the dead occurs during mortality the moment one hears and believes the words of Jesus Christ and receives His free gift of eternal life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 The question is "Will you believe Jesus Christ or LDS doctrine?" 1
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 43 minutes ago, snowflake said: I just can't agree with you that what Adam and Eve did was right. I think they knew it was wrong before hand. God told Adam specifically in Genesis 2:17 for him not to eat the fruit or they would die. God never says if you eat this fruit you will become wise, God never says you will know good and evil, God never says you will become as gods, these were all lies from the serpent. 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The serpent lied and enticed them 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Sorry, the part I bolded is demonstrably wrong from the Bible itself. There was no lie in "you shall be as God's, knowing good and evil". God confirmed it to be the truth in verse 22. ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Adam and Eve did what had to be done and what was always going to be done. Without their action there would have been no need for Jesus. But I will acknowledge that the evidence for that particular statement is only found in Mormonism. It's still true though. 2
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The question is "Will you believe Jesus Christ or LDS doctrine?" I will believe Jesus Christ. Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: It's easy for LDS Christians to make claims like "my works did nothing towards my salvation", but isn't that being a bit deceitful? You know good and well that eternal life is the highest form of salvation, and, according to LDS doctrine, "eternal life" is totally dependent upon your obedience to the commandments. So, "my works did nothing towards my salvation", do you not consider "eternal life" to be salvation? When EVs use the term "salvation" they mean what LDS refer to as "eternal life" because, according to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, "eternal life" is a door prize freely given during mortality, not a reward of worthy behavior given after death. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 To EVs, "resurrection" from the dead occurs during mortality the moment one hears and believes the words of Jesus Christ and receives His free gift of eternal life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 The question is "Will you believe Jesus Christ or LDS doctrine?" There's no contradiction or deceit here. Both LDS and EV believe Christ. Both believe that we that it's Christ that does the saving. We both believe that we must accept His gift of salvation, starting with our actions of believing and repenting. That foundation is the same for LDS, EV, and pretty much every Christian faith. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I will believe Jesus Christ. Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. If you do believe Jesus Christ, then you would have His free gift of eternal life already. A "free gift" can never be the reward of worthy behavior.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Just now, FormerLDS said: If you do believe Jesus Christ, then you would have His free gift of eternal life already. A "free gift" can never be the reward of worthy behavior. So what is the reward of worthy behavior mentioned in Revelation 22:12? Christ is bringing it and I am curious.
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 26 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: There's no contradiction or deceit here. Both LDS and EV believe Christ. Both believe that we that it's Christ that does the saving. We both believe that we must accept His gift of salvation, starting with our actions of believing and repenting. That foundation is the same for LDS, EV, and pretty much every Christian faith. The difference has to do with the "gift". LDS doctrine teaches the "gift" is resurrection from the dead after mortality. Everything beyond that gift is dependent upon worthy behavior and "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Third Article of Faith). But the "gift" given by the Jesus Christ of the Bible is a 1,000,000 times more than just resurrection. Rather, His "gift" is resurrection from death and eternal life the moment one believes. The "Jesus Christ" of LDS doctrine has never given anyone eternal life, friends. Far different from the Jesus Christ of the Bible who said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28 Notice one becomes a "sheep" during mortality - this isn't some event that takes place after death as LDS theology would have you believe. The previous verse clarifies this "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Non-believers are not sheep, which means those who believe are His sheep.
bluebell Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The difference has to do with the "gift". LDS doctrine teaches the "gift" is resurrection from the dead after mortality. Everything beyond that gift is dependent upon worthy behavior and "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Third Article of Faith). In LDS belief, everything beyond that gift is dependent upon having a covenant relationship with Christ. LDS (and many other non-LDS Christians) understand that having a covenant relationship with Christ requires both belief as well as action. Edited February 24, 2017 by bluebell 2
CV75 Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: It's easy for LDS Christians to make claims like "my works did nothing towards my salvation", but isn't that being a bit deceitful? You know good and well that eternal life is the highest form of salvation, and, according to LDS doctrine, "eternal life" is totally dependent upon your obedience to the commandments. So, "my works did nothing towards my salvation", do you not consider "eternal life" to be salvation? When EVs use the term "salvation" they mean what LDS refer to as "eternal life" because, according to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, "eternal life" is a door prize freely given during mortality, not a reward of worthy behavior given after death. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 To EVs, "resurrection" from the dead occurs during mortality the moment one hears and believes the words of Jesus Christ and receives His free gift of eternal life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 The question is "Will you believe Jesus Christ or LDS doctrine?" From what you've presented here, the less deceitful question is, "Will you believe EV doctrine?" Asking honest questions leads to, and is a sign of, believing Jesus. But you misrepresent LDS doctrine with the use of the word "totally." Until you are willing to understand and represent the doctrine properly, you cannot have a good-faith conversation about it nor expect to invite people to Christ. 1
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The difference has to do with the "gift". LDS doctrine teaches the "gift" is resurrection from the dead after mortality. Everything beyond that gift is dependent upon worthy behavior and "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Third Article of Faith). But the "gift" given by the Jesus Christ of the Bible is a 1,000,000 times more than just resurrection. Rather, His "gift" is resurrection from death and eternal life the moment one believes. The "Jesus Christ" of LDS doctrine has never given anyone eternal life, friends. Far different from the Jesus Christ of the Bible who said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28 Notice one becomes a "sheep" during mortality - this isn't some event that takes place after death as LDS theology would have you believe. The previous verse clarifies this "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Non-believers are not sheep, which means those who believe are His sheep. LOL!! I'm not confining this discussion merely to the resurrection! (Not to minimize the marvelousness of that) Tell me: are you an EV? Do you, like LDS, believe that a person must believe in Him in order to be saved? There is no difference in beliefs here: both EV and LDS believe that a person must accept Christ's gift in order to be saved. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: So what is the reward of worthy behavior mentioned in Revelation 22:12? Christ is bringing it and I am curious. For those who have eternal life (i.e. "saved") these are rewards given for obedience and faithfulness while on earth. Again, to the EV, "Eternal Life" is the door prize - gift given when born into the family. There are many rewards one can earn in addition to that gift. To the LDS Christian, "Eternal Life" is the highest reward that can be obtained, but it is only received after mortality.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: For those who have eternal life (i.e. "saved") these are rewards given for obedience and faithfulness while on earth. Again, to the EV, "Eternal Life" is the door prize - gift given when born into the family. There are many rewards one can earn in addition to that gift. To the LDS Christian, "Eternal Life" is the highest reward that can be obtained, but it is only received after mortality. So what would be one of the "many rewards" in addition to that gift? Just one please. In fact, CFR.
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: In LDS belief, everything beyond that gift is dependent upon having a covenant relationship with Christ. LDS (and many other non-LDS Christians) understand that having a covenant relationship with Christ requires both belief as well as action. In my experience, <0.01% of Christians believe that a person may take zero action (aka not believe and not repent and not accept Christ) and be saved. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, bluebell said: In LDS belief, everything beyond that gift is dependent upon having a covenant relationship with Christ. LDS (and many other non-LDS Christians) understand that having a covenant relationship with Christ requires both belief as well as action. Regardless what you have been taught, there are those who have eternal life and those who do not have eternal life. I have His free gift of eternal life and it's not dependent upon my best efforts to maintain a "covenant" with Him. Interestingly, the rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 believed in Him and they were clearly doing more miraculous works that any LDS I've ever seen, yet Jesus said unto them "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." They had "both belief as well as action" as you say, yet they were rejected. Why? Because they died having never received HIS gift of eternal life - they were never transformed into His "sheep" and Christ did not know them as he says about His sheep "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them."
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: In my experience, <0.01% of Christians believe that a person may take zero action (aka not believe and not repent and not accept Christ) and be saved. Well, yeah, duh. But a whole bunch of them/us believe we need to accept Jesus Christ and too many believe that all it takes to accept him is to acknowledge (say with their lips) that Jesus is the Christ.
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: So what would be one of the "many rewards" in addition to that gift? Just one please. In fact, CFR. There is an incorruptible crown mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9 which is given as a reward - the result of running the race. In 2 Timothy 4 there is the crown of righteousness given in a similar manner to those who finish the course: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." Other crowns are mentioned in the scriptures as well, all are rewards added to those who are faithful and obedient, but none have anything to do with salvation.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Just now, FormerLDS said: There is an incorruptible crown mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9 which is given as a reward - the result of running the race. In 2 Timothy 4 there is the crown of righteousness given in a similar manner to those who finish the course: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." Other crowns are mentioned in the scriptures as well, all are rewards added to those who are faithful and obedient, but none have anything to do with salvation. I agree. They are the difference between salvation and exaltation. And completely subject to our works. Edited February 24, 2017 by JLHPROF
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 16 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: In my experience, <0.01% of Christians believe that a person may take zero action (aka not believe and not repent and not accept Christ) and be saved. Indeed! Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I agree. They are the difference between salvation and exaltation. And completely subject to our works. Think you need to just stick with "Eternal Life" which is the highest form of salvation/exaltation in the CK. "Eternal Life" is the subject, not what you have been taught as "salvation".
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Think you need to just stick with "Eternal Life" which is the highest form of salvation/exaltation in the CK. "Eternal Life" is the subject, not what you have been taught as "salvation". I think it's more helpful to understand what the terms are attempting to describe. It takes a little more effort but then one will at least understand what is being referred to. Salvation, for example, is referring to being saved from something. But saved from what? And how much? Everybody who lived a mortal life will be saved from being a spirit only after death by being resurrected with a glorified physical body, rather than just remaining a spirit only after death. So that is a degree of salvation that every person who was born into a mortal body will experience. Being saved from sin requires a little more though, and we refer to those little extras as one's "fruits". And not everybody will bear the same fruits as everyone else. Etc. There are many details to be learned and understood.
ERayR Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: It's easy for LDS Christians to make claims like "my works did nothing towards my salvation", but isn't that being a bit deceitful? You know good and well that eternal life is the highest form of salvation, and, according to LDS doctrine, "eternal life" is totally dependent upon your obedience to the commandments. So, "my works did nothing towards my salvation", do you not consider "eternal life" to be salvation? When EVs use the term "salvation" they mean what LDS refer to as "eternal life" because, according to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, "eternal life" is a door prize freely given during mortality, not a reward of worthy behavior given after death. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 To EVs, "resurrection" from the dead occurs during mortality the moment one hears and believes the words of Jesus Christ and receives His free gift of eternal life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 The question is "Will you believe Jesus Christ or LDS doctrine?" No, it is not. Without the Grace of God none of it would be available. 1
FormerLDS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, ERayR said: No, it is not. Without the Grace of God none of it would be available. But come on, most LDS know that EVs don't have five different doctrinal meanings of "Salvation".
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Indeed! Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Yep! We (all Christians) have this common core and believe that while Christ saves a person's action is required. Edited February 24, 2017 by Jane_Doe 1
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