Maestrophil Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Hi all. A few years ago, I was speaking with a protester at a church event. He was EV Christian. He was shocked when I said that I was only saved through the grace of Christ alone, and my works did nothing towards my salvation, but were rather a fruit of my love for him. He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? I am interested in hearing your views - both those who believe what the EV man was saying as well as faithful LDS. Why are the temple ordinances either necessary, or an abomination? Thanks! MP
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Easy one. We are only saved through the grace of Christ. Our role and condition in that future saved life is dependent upon which laws of God we accept. And our acceptance of those laws is signified in our participation in and obedience to those ordinances. Not complicated at all.Even Christ said: Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." John 13: 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. John 14: 15 "¶If ye love me, keep my commandments." 4
ksfisher Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: Easy one. We are only saved through the grace of Christ. Our role and condition in that future saved life is dependent upon which laws of God we accept. And our acceptance of those laws is signified in our participation in and obedience to those ordinances. Not complicated at all.Even Christ said: Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." John 13: 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. John 14: 15 "¶If ye love me, keep my commandments." Very good explanation.
CV75 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: Hi all. A few years ago, I was speaking with a protester at a church event. He was EV Christian. He was shocked when I said that I was only saved through the grace of Christ alone, and my works did nothing towards my salvation, but were rather a fruit of my love for him. He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? I am interested in hearing your views - both those who believe what the EV man was saying as well as faithful LDS. Why are the temple ordinances either necessary, or an abomination? Thanks! MP If salvation were by grace alone, Jesus wouldn't have mentioned the keys. Binding and loosing are works often performed by ordinances. Ordinances are covenants (bindings) that can not only be broken but also loosed for the unworthy.
CV75 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Easy one. We are only saved through the grace of Christ. Our role and condition in that future saved life is dependent upon which laws of God we accept. And our acceptance of those laws is signified in our participation in and obedience to those ordinances. Not complicated at all.Even Christ said: Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." John 13: 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. John 14: 15 "¶If ye love me, keep my commandments." While we are saved only (ultimately) by grace, we are not saved by grace alone.
Jane_Doe Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) It is 100% grace that saves us. However, we must accept this gift from Christ-- after all it wouldn't be a gift if Christ forced us to take it! Because we love Him and want to be His disciples, we accept His gift. This acceptance is done via ordinances (such as baptism) where we are made new in Christ. Edited February 21, 2017 by Jane_Doe 2
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: While we are saved only (ultimately) by grace, we are not saved by grace alone. Disagree. We are saved by grace. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. We are all Christ's inheritance from the Father and ALL of us will be saved except the son of perdition. But not all will be saved in the same kingdom. Our saved condition, whether it be Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, whether it be to rule and reign or as a ministering servant, our saved condition is what is determined by our obedience. But we are ALL getting resurrected, ie "Saved". That is the free gift. All that is required beyond grace is our acceptance that Christ is Lord and Savior. And scripture tells us that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Only perdition will completely reject the free gift, and lose their salvation. Edited February 21, 2017 by JLHPROF 2
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Posted February 21, 2017 We are saved by grace, and covenants and ordinances give us access to that grace. 6
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Maestrophil said: Hi all. A few years ago, I was speaking with a protester at a church event. He was EV Christian. He was shocked when I said that I was only saved through the grace of Christ alone, and my works did nothing towards my salvation, but were rather a fruit of my love for him. He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? I am interested in hearing your views - both those who believe what the EV man was saying as well as faithful LDS. Why are the temple ordinances either necessary, or an abomination? Thanks! MP Mormonism is no different than any other religion out there (except Christianity). In all these religions, basically have to obey a set of rules or do certain deeds (ordinances, temples, works) to become closer to God, or so that you may become acceptable to God, or so that God will love you. In doing this you earn your way to the celestial kingdom where God lives. Also in Mormonism, everyone is basically "saved", no one goes to hell. Christianity flips all of that upside down. Christ did all of the word for us, paid it forward or up front. By accepting his free gift of "salvation", he comes into us and changes us. Our works are the product of being changed by Jesus. All of the work is done for the glory of God, not to earn our way to heaven. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 48 minutes ago, bluebell said: We are saved by grace, and covenants and ordinances give us access to that grace. That may be. I think too many people confuse "grace" as having the wrong origin.https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/χάρις beauty, elegance, charm, grace A favourable disposition towards someone: grace, favor, goodwill (Judaism, Christianity) The grace or favor of God A voluntary act of goodwill gratitude, thanks influence (opposite force) gratification, delight But it seems like most people connect it to the word "gratis" meaning free.
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: Mormonism is no different than any other religion out there (except Christianity). In all these religions, basically have to obey a set of rules or do certain deeds (ordinances, temples, works) to become closer to God, or so that you may become acceptable to God, or so that God will love you. In doing this you earn your way to the celestial kingdom where God lives. Also in Mormonism, everyone is basically "saved", no one goes to hell. Christianity flips all of that upside down. Christ did all of the word for us, paid it forward or up front. By accepting his free gift of "salvation", he comes into us and changes us. Our works are the product of being changed by Jesus. All of the work is done for the glory of God, not to earn our way to heaven. So close... The issue is that "salvation" isn't one simplistic thing as EV Christianity would make it. It is not saved vs damned. Our works aren't to earn our way to heaven. Or works are exactly as you put it - evidence of being changed by Christ. Or in other words, becoming like him. And everyone IS saved except the Sons of Perdition. Christ said that. The problem with EV Christianity is they reject the notion of the joint heirs of Christ actually inheriting the same glory and power he has. Why else do you think we struggle so hard to be like Christ? It's not to earn our way into heaven. It's to become as he is. Edited February 21, 2017 by JLHPROF
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That may be. I think too many people confuse "grace" as having the wrong origin.https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/χάρις beauty, elegance, charm, grace A favourable disposition towards someone: grace, favor, goodwill (Judaism, Christianity) The grace or favor of God A voluntary act of goodwill gratitude, thanks influence (opposite force) gratification, delight But it seems like most people connect it to the word "gratis" meaning free. Lots of people misunderstand what God's grace is. I sat thru a talk this weekend by Brad Wilcox and the topic was understanding what grace was and what it wasn't. Good stuff. 1
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, snowflake said: Mormonism is no different than any other religion out there (except Christianity). In all these religions, basically have to obey a set of rules or do certain deeds (ordinances, temples, works) to become closer to God, or so that you may become acceptable to God, or so that God will love you. In doing this you earn your way to the celestial kingdom where God lives. Also in Mormonism, everyone is basically "saved", no one goes to hell. Christianity flips all of that upside down. Christ did all of the word for us, paid it forward or up front. By accepting his free gift of "salvation", he comes into us and changes us. Our works are the product of being changed by Jesus. All of the work is done for the glory of God, not to earn our way to heaven. The only difference between your brand of Christianity and LDS Christianity is that we disagree on what we have to do to access God's grace. We both agree though that we must do something to to be saved and that His grace is conditional and granted only once we do whatever that *something* is. And we both agree that those who do nothing aren't saved. 1
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: So close... The issue is that "salvation" isn't one simplistic thing as EV Christianity would make it. It is not saved vs damned. Our works aren't to earn our way to heaven. Or works are exactly as you put it - evidence of being changed by Christ. Or in other words, becoming like him. And everyone IS saved except the Sons of Perdition. Christ said that. The problem with EV Christianity is they reject the notion of the joint heirs of Christ actually inheriting the same glory and power he has. Why else do you think we struggle so hard to be like Christ? It's not to earn our way into heaven. It's to become as he is. I would agree with you that the EV's reject the notion of inheriting the same glory and power Jesus has, we see him a "God in the flesh", worthy of worship and adoration. And we most certainly want to become more like him, however.... I disagree with your motive to become like Christ, so you can become a god. I think you are trying to earn your way to godhood and at the same time earn your way into the Celestial kingdom so you can be with Heavenly Father, no? And JLHPROF, I love your honesty brother, you have a great way of calling it like you see it and I appreciate that!
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: The only difference between your brand of Christianity and LDS Christianity is that we disagree on what we have to do to access God's grace. We both agree though that we must do something to to be saved and that His grace is conditional and granted only once we do whatever that *something* is. And we both agree that those who do nothing aren't saved. Pretty broad strokes bluebell, there are many differences between the EV's and the LDS. We wouldn't agree on even the most basic things, like who God is or who Jesus is.
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: Pretty broad strokes bluebell, there are many differences between the EV's and the LDS. We wouldn't agree on even the most basic things, like who God is or who Jesus is. Since i was replying to your post, i figured you would know that my answer was specifically meant in the context of your post. Sorry if i was confusing. When it comes to being saved by grace, how one accesses God's grace is where our two Christian denominations disagree. We both agree that we must be saved by grace and that we can't work our way to heaven. 3
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, snowflake said: I would agree with you that the EV's reject the notion of inheriting the same glory and power Jesus has, we see him a "God in the flesh", worthy of worship and adoration. And we most certainly want to become more like him, however.... What does it mean to you to become a joint-heir with Christ?
clarkgoble Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Maestrophil said: He then motioned to the temple and then said, "why do you need to do all of those ordinances in the temple then?" His view was that grace alone saved us, so why do ordinances play any part in that? What's funny is that Evangelical doctrine already answers this with respect to baptism. It's how the grace of God manifests in our lives and how we show that manifestation of grace. That is because the ordinance is of divine initiative it's not a human work at all. The ordinances are not signs of what we do or are but what God does to us. Further ordinances would be exactly the same. Indeed it doesn't take much examination to recognize that the endowment is being endowed by God. It's right in the name that it is a reception of grace. It's even quoting Luke 24:49. I've found though that most (certainly not all) Evangelicals don't find their own theology interesting. They have a pretty superficial view. Of course many Mormons are the same so I don't want to single out Evangelicals. However I bet a significant number of Evangelicals if you were to ask them to explain grace would end up with a view more or less the same as cheap grace which is technically a heresy and not part of Evangelical theology. Again to be fair if you asked the typical Mormon to explain what was wrong with the Trinity they'd actually be attacking modalism not Trinitarianism. So it's not like Evangelicals are alone in this. Edited February 21, 2017 by clarkgoble 3
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, snowflake said: I would agree with you that the EV's reject the notion of inheriting the same glory and power Jesus has, we see him a "God in the flesh", worthy of worship and adoration. And we most certainly want to become more like him, however.... I disagree with your motive to become like Christ, so you can become a god. I think you are trying to earn your way to godhood and at the same time earn your way into the Celestial kingdom so you can be with Heavenly Father, no? And JLHPROF, I love your honesty brother, you have a great way of calling it like you see it and I appreciate that! Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Gosh Paul would have made a good Mormon. And John too come to that: Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Christ inherits all that the Father has. We inherit the same. That's straight out of the Bible. The whole plan is: Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. In Mormonism this has much deeper significance than the mere poetry of traditional Christianity. That's why I love the restored gospel. 1
Popular Post halconero Posted February 21, 2017 Popular Post Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) An instructional video (and a beautiful one at that) for temple workers which recently came out has President Monson telling us that the ordinances of the temple are "portals of grace." Grace saves, but it also exalts dependent upon making and keeping covenants via priesthood ordinances. That same grace also enables us to repent when we break those covenants, as well as keep them beyond our own means to do so. Edited February 21, 2017 by halconero 6
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: Since i was replying to your post, i figured you would know that my answer was specifically meant in the context of your post. Sorry if i was confusing. When it comes to being saved by grace, how one accesses God's grace is where our two Christian denominations disagree. We both agree that we must be saved by grace and that we can't work our way to heaven. Ok, I see your point and would agree, no worries. The whole issue of being saved by grace can become very confusing for the EV and LDS because we often don't define our terms. "Saved" to the EV has a completely different definition than what that means to the LDS and as you posted earlier, I think that "grace" probably does too. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, halconero said: An instructional video (and a beautiful one at that) for temple workers which recently came out has President Monson telling us that the ordinances of the temple are "portals of grace." Grace saves, but it also exalts dependent upon making and keeping covenants via priesthood ordinances. That same grace also enables us to repent when we break those covenants, as well as keep them beyond our own means to do so. There are questions statements like that raise for me. Not objections, but questions. You state grace allows us to repent. The time to repent is limited to this life. Does that mean grace ends at death? I don't think it does. I like the idea that the ordinances are "portals of grace". We broke the laws and only through the grace of God is there a path back. So does completing the ordinances provided when we are so imperfect show God's grace? I'd like to think so.
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, snowflake said: we often don't define our terms. "Saved" to the EV has a completely different definition than what that means to the LDS SO true. I think the term "saved" is applied in all kinds of ways even by LDS members. And perhaps "grace" too. Personally I equate "saved" with resurrection. The scriptures tell us that the wages of sin are death and without the "saving" sacrifice we would remain in the grave. Christ tells us that ALL will be resurrected, that ALL will bow the knee and confess his name, and that ALL will conquer death. To me THAT is the salvation through grace, the gift that requires only acceptance. This is what I think EV's consider salvation. But it is the "then what" that comes after that get's into Mormon doctrine of exaltation, ordinances, and works. Sometimes LDS members use entrance into the Celestial Kingdom as the definition of Salvation. Sometimes LDS members use entrance into the Celestial Kingdom as the definition of Exaltation. I don't think either of those is completely correct. Edited February 21, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
bluebell Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: There are questions statements like that raise for me. Not objections, but questions. You state grace allows us to repent. The time to repent is limited to this life. Does that mean grace ends at death? I don't think it does. I like the idea that the ordinances are "portals of grace". We broke the laws and only through the grace of God is there a path back. So does completing the ordinances provided when we are so imperfect show God's grace? I'd like to think so. Repentance must still be possible in the next life or temple work is useless. Besides that, i think that grace can be both time-sensitive in some ways and also eternal in others. 2
snowflake Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Gosh Paul would have made a good Mormon. And John too come to that: Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Christ inherits all that the Father has. We inherit the same. That's straight out of the Bible. The whole plan is: Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. In Mormonism this has much deeper significance than the mere poetry of traditional Christianity. That's why I love the restored gospel. Great scriptures above, the bible is just amazing! Of all people I'm sure you, JLHPROF, know the difference between the LDS and the EV's view on how one becomes a child of God. According to the LDS everyone is born a child of God. To the EV's one becomes an adopted child of God through faith in Jesus. Huge difference! So me putting all of my complete faith and hope in Jesus makes me a son of God, ensuring all the wonderful promises God offers me are already guaranteed! John chapter 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. When we receive Jesus, we become the sons of God, we are not born as sons of God, again, big difference. Galatians 3: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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