Temple work vs Grace

[dberrie2000]

On 3/3/2017 at 10:10 AM, Freedom said:

Excellent point. I might improve upon your example by saying that the college education is free, 

Hi Freedom:

If you find a college that allows free tuition, I would like to engage that offer. But I do believe the opportunity to be educated is free, as is the opportunity to inherit eternal life--provided by the Savior.

The two flaws in the evangelical interpretation is that they add 'only' i.e. you are saved by grace only, and they require gifts to be 100% free but they contradict this by saying you need to accept Jesus in your heart first as if this is not a cost. But of course, they go further by saying that you have to accept the 'correct' jesus which means you must first study the new testament before you can open you heart. They tend to talk in circles.

I'm like you--I don't find any reference to "grace only" in the Biblical text--and only one mention of "faith alone":

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²⁴ You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But most LDS would agree--it is by God's grace we are saved. My question is--once I have accepted the fact we are saved by God's grace--who does God extend this grace to?

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

 

 

 

[Anakin7]

    An alternate reading in other translations in Rev 22 :14 is  - Washing my Robes. For me if one is washing there robes in the Blood of The Lamb the are keeping the commandments, if the are keeping the commandments they are washing there robes in the Blood of the Lamb.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

 Anakin7

 

 

 

 

[FormerLDS]

On 3/3/2017 at 8:14 PM, Maestrophil said:

FormerLDS.  I was away on a business trip.  I missed a lot of dialog.  I don't agree with those who say you are preaching a false doctrine.  You are very honestly and bravely answering my question of why you believe the way you do, and it is very helpful for me to see your point of view.  I thank you.  While I agree with others here that the Bible itself can be interpreted a myriad of ways, there is nothing I have heard in your interpretation that doe snot seem well reasoned according to your faith, and I commend you for it.

 

MP

I remember taking the missionaries on splits many years ago when I was still a member.  We met this little old lady that called us "Marmins".  She emphatically told us that the Bible did not support our [LDS] doctrines and all we had to do was read it and see with our own eyes.  Her confidence really bothered me, but, looking back, I think it was also God trying to speak the truth to me - to reach through my religious best efforts and worthiness to get to me.  It became more personal when I considered the "Jesus Christ" she spoke of - almost as if He were a personal friend instead of some nebulous figurehead a bazillion miles away from me.  I chose to focus only on the words of the savior and see for myself if what He was saying really was different from what I was taught He was saying.  His words, like a torch of truth and light found me and saved me.  It was as if Jesus Christ was telling me that no matter how much I tried I would never be good enough for His gift of life and if I wanted that gift, I had to allow it to be a free gift.  I chose to believe His words completely and solely.  From that point on concepts had a totally different meaning.  Everything I read in the scripture became new to me.  That's really all I can say.

Jesus Christ said these words "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)  Those who have Jesus Christ have life and those who do not have the Son do not have His eternal life.

In John 5:24, the savior says that receiving eternal life means you pass from death to life and this happens during mortality, not after the final judgement. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

The LDS “Savior” can only offer a post-mortem “eternal life” friends.  If you leave this mortal existence having never been passed from death unto life, you shall not see life after you die, but the wrath of God, which abides on those who do not have His life within them.

[thesometimesaint]

28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I remember taking the missionaries on splits many years ago when I was still a member.  We met this little old lady that called us "Marmins".  She emphatically told us that the Bible did not support our [LDS] doctrines and all we had to do was read it and see with our own eyes.  Her confidence really bothered me, but, looking back, I think it was also God trying to speak the truth to me - to reach through my religious best efforts and worthiness to get to me.  It became more personal when I considered the "Jesus Christ" she spoke of - almost as if He were a personal friend instead of some nebulous figurehead a bazillion miles away from me.  I chose to focus only on the words of the savior and see for myself if what He was saying really was different from what I was taught He was saying.  His words, like a torch of truth and light found me and saved me.  It was as if Jesus Christ was telling me that no matter how much I tried I would never be good enough for His gift of life and if I wanted that gift, I had to allow it to be a free gift.  I chose to believe His words completely and solely.  From that point on concepts had a totally different meaning.  Everything I read in the scripture became new to me.  That's really all I can say.

 

Jesus Christ said these words "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)  Those who have Jesus Christ have life and those who do not have the Son do not have His eternal life.

 

In John 5:24, the savior says that receiving eternal life means you pass from death to life and this happens during mortality, not after the final judgement. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

 

The LDS “Savior” can only offer a post-mortem “eternal life” friends.  If you leave this mortal existence having never been passed from death unto life, you shall not see life after you die, but the wrath of God, which abides on those who do not have His life within them.

 

What?

[FormerLDS]

On 3/1/2017 at 8:15 PM, Vance said:

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that eternal life is a free gift.

 

Does a gift become any less of a gift if it is given as a reward for good behavior?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

If a gift isn't free, then it isn't a gift.  A "reward" is the result of diligent labor.  Does an Olympian consider a gold metal to be a "gift" from the Olympic committee?  If you have a mortgage, do you consider your home to be a "gift" from your bank?  Hardly!

The word "reward" in the Bible is always attributed to labor, effort and work.  Consider the following passages:

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”   Romans 4:4 

“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”   1 Corinthians 3:8

“If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”   1 Corinthians 3:14  

[thesometimesaint]

Just depends on how much of that gift you're wiling to accept.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

[Ahab]

38 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The word "reward" in the Bible is always attributed to labor, effort and work.  Consider the following passages:

 

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”   Romans 4:4 

“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”   1 Corinthians 3:8

“If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”   1 Corinthians 3:14  

 

 

Yes, exactly. The reward is given to those who labor diligently for it and in the end we will all be judged by our works, which is also referred to as "fruit".

It still isn't our fruit or our own works that save us, though.  The fruit, or works, simply show how much and to what extent we are saved vs what we would be if we had not been saved.

 

[FormerLDS]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:21 AM, dberrie2000 said:

Hi Former:

Repentance and water baptism was taught from the beginning of the gospel--for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

² As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

³ The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

⁴ John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

⁵ And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

 

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Questions for Former:

Were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins? How does God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them who repent and are water baptized--fit faith alone theology? It fits LDS theology just fine, IMO.

"Believe" is the repentance of unbelief.  Those who hear and believe in Jesus Christ are saved and should then be baptized in water because they have the remission of sin.

John the Baptist taught the people to believe on Him that would come after him.  Those who heard and believed were baptized.    

[FormerLDS]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:30 AM, dberrie2000 said:

A couple of points here:

1) According to the testimony of the Savior--rewards are given in accordance with works:

Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV)

²⁷ For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

2)By the same principle--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts:

Matthew 25:14-30--King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

¹⁵ And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

¹⁶ Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

¹⁷ And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

¹⁸ But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

¹⁹ After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

²⁰ And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

²¹ His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

²² He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

²³ His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

²⁴ Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

²⁵ And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

²⁶ His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

²⁷ Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

²⁸ Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

²⁹ For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

³⁰ And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Please do notice they were His servants to begin with, and were later cast into outer darkness--according to what they had done with the gifts. Also--please do notice--those who magnified their gifts--were termed "faithful"--connecting what we do with the gifts as integral to the term faith.

This doesn't change the fact that rewards are the result of worthy behavior which is my point.

If worthy behavior is a requirement, the result is a reward and cannot be considered a gift.

[Ahab]

29 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

This doesn't change the fact that rewards are the result of worthy behavior which is my point.

If worthy behavior is a requirement, the result is a reward and cannot be considered a gift.

Instead of thinking of worthy (good) behavior as a requirement it would be better to think of it as a consequence, something that just results from having true faith.

As James said, we show our faith by our works, and wherever faith is there will be a work that results from that faith.

[Maestrophil]

5 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I remember taking the missionaries on splits many years ago when I was still a member.  We met this little old lady that called us "Marmins".  She emphatically told us that the Bible did not support our [LDS] doctrines and all we had to do was read it and see with our own eyes.  Her confidence really bothered me, but, looking back, I think it was also God trying to speak the truth to me - to reach through my religious best efforts and worthiness to get to me.  It became more personal when I considered the "Jesus Christ" she spoke of - almost as if He were a personal friend instead of some nebulous figurehead a bazillion miles away from me.  I chose to focus only on the words of the savior and see for myself if what He was saying really was different from what I was taught He was saying.  His words, like a torch of truth and light found me and saved me.  It was as if Jesus Christ was telling me that no matter how much I tried I would never be good enough for His gift of life and if I wanted that gift, I had to allow it to be a free gift.  I chose to believe His words completely and solely.  From that point on concepts had a totally different meaning.  Everything I read in the scripture became new to me.  That's really all I can say.

 

Jesus Christ said these words "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)  Those who have Jesus Christ have life and those who do not have the Son do not have His eternal life.

 

In John 5:24, the savior says that receiving eternal life means you pass from death to life and this happens during mortality, not after the final judgement. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

 

The LDS “Savior” can only offer a post-mortem “eternal life” friends.  If you leave this mortal existence having never been passed from death unto life, you shall not see life after you die, but the wrath of God, which abides on those who do not have His life within them.

 

Well, so much for my trying to come to your defense and build bridges.  But thanks for the extra dose of "you are wrong".  

Glad you have found a way that resonates with you - I feel no such pull from your testimony, but, as I said, I respect you for it.

 

MP

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes, exactly. The reward is given to those who labor diligently for it and in the end we will all be judged by our works, which is also referred to as "fruit".

It still isn't our fruit or our own works that save us, though.  The fruit, or works, simply show how much and to what extent we are saved vs what we would be if we had not been saved.

 

Really, that’s a commendable synopsis of the LDS theology.

The "eternal life" that the Jesus Christ of the Bible offers is vastly different that what you describe.  It is a gift.  You just take it through belief in Him alone just like you have faith in Him for the gift similar to LDS "basic salvation" except that gift of eternal life is only given to those who believe.  Consider about John 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” 

Those who hear and believe HAVE eternal life and are immediately passed from death to life (resurrected).  For those who are saved, "eternal life", "salvation" AND "immortality" are NOT things that happen after the final judgement; rather, they happen immediately upon believe in the savior.  

[dberrie2000]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

"Believe" is the repentance of unbelief.  

Hi Former:

But that only connects repentance as an integral component to belief.

Those who hear and believe in Jesus Christ are saved and should then be baptized in water ... 

Then you believe one gains salvation before they receive the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Instead of thinking of worthy (good) behavior as a requirement it would be better to think of it as a consequence, something that just results from having true faith.

As James said, we show our faith by our works, and wherever faith is there will be a work that results from that faith.

Well, I hear you friend, but thank GOD I don't have to live that life of perfection anymore.  For me, eternal life is no longer a carrot dangled in front of my nose.

I HAVE eternal life today.  Praise God you can too!  I hope you will discover you can NEVER make yourself worthy enough for His precious gift of eternal life.

Read and focus on the words of the savior.  That's the only way I was ever able to see the truth.

[dberrie2000]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

This doesn't change the fact that rewards are the result of worthy behavior which is my point.

If worthy behavior is a requirement, the result is a reward and cannot be considered a gift.

Hi Former:

Fair enough. Then you would agree that God extending His salvational grace of the forgiveness of sins--to those who repent and are water baptized--is a gift? Or is it a reward?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Either way, Former--it's God extending His grace to them which do His work. That defies faith alone theology--gift or reward notwithstanding.

 

[dberrie2000]

5 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

 I hope you will discover you can NEVER make yourself worthy enough for His precious gift of eternal life.

 

I would agree--that is why it's called grace.

The question now becomes--who does God give this grace to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

 

[FormerLDS]

8 minutes ago, dberrie2000 said:

Hi Former:

But that only connects repentance as an integral component to belief.

 

Then you believe one gains salvation before they receive the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

No, but when I read Acts 2:38 now, I read something vastly different than what I used to read when I was an LDS Christian.

That's all.  If you think about it for a moment or two, it will come to you that "for the remission of sins" could be a reference to the moment of salvation through belief.

[dberrie2000]

3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

No, but when I read Acts 2:38 now, I read something vastly different than what I used to read when I was an LDS Christian.

That's all. 

Hi Former:

Faith alone adherents must read and understand it differently--as it violates faith alone theology, as it reads, IE--

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works--Acts2:38 won't fit that bill, IMO.

  If you think about it for a moment or two, it will come to you that "for the remission of sins" could be a reference to the moment of salvation through belief. 

But again--that only connects repentance and water baptism as integral to "the moment of salvation through belief".

And that is exactly how the English language works--all terms are comprised of all the components which are integral to it's composition, IE:

term:house

Integral components: foundation, walls, roof, doors, windows, etc.

term: Car

Integral components: engine, transmission, seats, windshield, wheels, etc.

term:faith

integral components: repentance, water baptism, obedience, endurance, service, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vance]

Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say Eternal Life is a "free" gift.

I noticed that you claimed to have focused upon the words of Jesus, yet you have to use the words of Paul, out of context, to attempt to prove your point.

 

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Yes, we all agree that the Eternal Life is a gift.  Notice that it doesn't say "free" gift.

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If a gift isn't free, then it isn't a gift.

That is false.  Every gift, including the gift of Eternal Life has a cost.  A God, who has no requirements is the same as no God at all.

If I promise my son that if he gets straight A's for a year that I will give him a car, doesn't make the car any less of a gift, just because you say so. 

 

You, have put yourself into a box.  It is impossible for you to admit the obvious, because to admit that a gift is no less a gift just because it was given in response to the fulfillment of a promise would destroy you position. 

 

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

 A "reward" is the result of diligent labor.

Not necessarily.  If you returned a wallet that had be lost, but you had found, and the person offered to buy you lunch, is it no less a gift?  Not at all.  He had no obligation to buy you lunch.   The lunch is both a reward and a gift.

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

 Does an Olympian consider a gold metal to be a "gift" from the Olympic committee?

Why not.  The Olympic committee is under no legal obligation to give an Olympian a gold medal.  Not all Olympians receive medals.

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

 If you have a mortgage, do you consider your home to be a "gift" from your bank?  Hardly!

No, but unlike Eternal Life, you are capable of buying the house yourself.  Just save the money until you have enough and then pay cash.

The bank however can give you the gift of a loan.

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The word "reward" in the Bible is always attributed to labor, effort and work.  Consider the following passages:

 

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”   Romans 4:4 

In that one, Paul is using "grace" as a metaphor for obedience to the Gospel, and "debt" as a metaphor for the Law of Moses.

8 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”   1 Corinthians 3:8

“If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”   1 Corinthians 3:14

Not a problem.

I actually like this one better,

Rom 2:6 (God)Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

  7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Ergo, Eternal Life is a gift/reward for righteous deeds.

There you have it.  A gift can be a reward.  Eternal life can be a reward.

 

 

[Vance]

6 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

This doesn't change the fact that rewards are the result of worthy behavior which is my point.

If worthy behavior is a requirement, the result is a reward and cannot be considered a gift.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't become true.

A reward can be gift, and a gift can be a reward.

[Vance]

If God gives you the Holy Spirit, is it a gift or a reward?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Vance