Temple work vs Grace

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Wow, JHLPROF, where do you come up with this stuff? If this is your understanding of heaven, is not consistent with the bible whatsoever.

So clarify for me.
What does the EV community believe they will be doing in Heaven?  What does heaven consist of?

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So clarify for me.
What does the EV community believe they will be doing in Heaven?  What does heaven consist of?

Come on, bro.  You know he doesn't know.

Just keep trying to teach him how much God has told us about it all...beyond the confines of the Bible.

[Maestrophil]

So is the correct LDS answer to say that "salvation" means heaven and it is separate from exaltation?  Do EVs have scriptures they claim prove that the concept of exaltation thus temple work is non-biblical?  

 

Snowflake, can you show biblically scriptures that would contend with the LDS version of things?

 

How about looking with an eye towards the temple when reading Heb 10:19-22?  Sounds like when Christ returned he may have established temple work similar to what we know - of course we know why that would not likely have been plainly written.  ;-)

 

Edited to capitalize the Lord's title

Edited February 23, 2017 by Maestrophil

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

So is the correct LDS answer to say that "salvation" means heaven and it is separate from exaltation? 

The correct answer is that we LDS blur the terms.

To ME Salvation means resurrected (not lost)
To ME Salvation in God's Kingdom means in heaven
To ME Exaltation means crowned to rule and reign as God's in the Father's Kingdom (top degree stuff).

As I said though, in the Church the lines between the three get blurred.
I have heard many members say salvation is in the Celestial Kingdom.
I have heard many members say exaltation is living in the Celestial Kingdom (living with God) regardless of which level.
 

[snowflake]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So clarify for me.
What does the EV community believe they will be doing in Heaven?  What does heaven consist of?

Start with Revelation chapter 21 and 22, there will be a new heaven and earth and a holy city of Jerusalem, we will be serving God, as to what that means I do not know, but we will be with him.

 

A chapter about our resurrected bodies is 1 Corinthians 15: 35-58. Revelation 7:13-17. Matthew 22: 29-33. Here are a few scriptures to get you started. Hope this helps.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

So is the correct LDS answer to say that "salvation" means heaven and it is separate from exaltation?  Do EVs have scriptures they claim prove that the concept of exaltation thus temple work is non-biblical?  

 

Snowflake, can you show biblically scriptures that would contend with the LDS version of things?

 

How about looking with an eye towards the temple when reading Heb 10:19-22?  Sounds like when Christ returned he may have established temple work similar to what we know - of course we know why that would not likely have been plainly written.  ;-)

 

Edited to capitalize the Lord's title

Hebrews explains that Jesus is the Sacrifice, he does away for the need of the sin offerings done in the temple and sets up a new covenant vs 9 and 10. The temple is done away with because we have Jesus as the sacrifice, it is finished, he is the Great high priest forever. No more need for temples.

 

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

⁹ Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

¹⁰ By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

¹¹ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

¹² But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

¹³ From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

¹⁴ For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

¹⁵ Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

¹⁶ This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

¹⁷ And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

¹⁸ Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

¹⁹ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

²⁰ By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

²¹ And having an high priest over the house of God;

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Start with Revelation chapter 21 and 22, there will be a new heaven and earth and a holy city of Jerusalem, we will be serving God, as to what that means I do not know, but we will be with him.

 

A chapter about our resurrected bodies is 1 Corinthians 15: 35-58. Revelation 7:13-17. Matthew 22: 29-33. Here are a few scriptures to get you started. Hope this helps.

Revelation 21 provides a physical description of heaven.  It provides no information as to our lives there.
However vs 7 states that "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."  So we will have everything God has.

Revelation 22 also provides much physical description of heaven.  It provides very little as to our lives in heaven.
However vs 4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" tells us we will be called by the name of God, so combined with 21:7 this tells us of the eternal family we will be a part of. 
Vs 12 " my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." tells us we will be rewarded according to our works.
Vs 14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" tells us that keeping the commandments are a requirement for eternal life and entering heaven.

So Rev 21 and 22 teach us that heaven involves:
- becoming part of God's eternal family
- inheriting everything God has (glory, power, etc)
- receiving rewards according to our works and the commandments we keep

I Corinthians 15:35-58 tells us that there will be different levels of glory in the resurrection, not all will be the same.

• 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
So we know that work is involved in our lives in heaven.

Matthew 22:29-33.  This tells us that after the resurrection it is too late to marry.  No argument there.  That is why it is so important that all eternal families are created through the sealing ordinances in mortality.  Once resurrected it's too late to choose to follow the command of God to marry in Genesis.


So you have done a good job in providing poetic scripture as to heaven's appearance.
The scriptures you provide also teach us as I said that:

• we will become as God, inheriting all he has
• we will be engaged in the work of God, and creation is his work
• we will be part of God's eternal family, carrying his name
• we will inherit resurrected bodies and rewards according to our works and level of sanctification

In short, everything I described.

[snowflake]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Revelation 21 provides a physical description of heaven.  It provides no information as to our lives there.
However vs 7 states that "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."  So we will have everything God has.

Revelation 22 also provides much physical description of heaven.  It provides very little as to our lives in heaven.
However vs 4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" tells us we will be called by the name of God, so combined with 21:7 this tells us of the eternal family we will be a part of. 
Vs 12 " my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." tells us we will be rewarded according to our works.
Vs 14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" tells us that keeping the commandments are a requirement for eternal life and entering heaven.

So Rev 21 and 22 teach us that heaven involves:
- becoming part of God's eternal family
- inheriting everything God has (glory, power, etc)
- receiving rewards according to our works and the commandments we keep

I Corinthians 15:35-58 tells us that there will be different levels of glory in the resurrection, not all will be the same.

• 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
So we know that work is involved in our lives in heaven.

Matthew 22:29-33.  This tells us that after the resurrection it is too late to marry.  No argument there.  That is why it is so important that all eternal families are created through the sealing ordinances in mortality.  Once resurrected it's too late to choose to follow the command of God to marry in Genesis.


So you have done a good job in providing poetic scripture as to heaven's appearance.
The scriptures you provide also teach us as I said that:

• we will become as God, inheriting all he has
• we will be engaged in the work of God, and creation is his work
• we will be part of God's eternal family, carrying his name
• we will inherit resurrected bodies and rewards according to our works and level of sanctification

In short, everything I described.

So we believe in the same heaven? I thought that the EV's didn't have anything to look forward to.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So we believe in the same heaven? I thought that the EV's didn't have anything to look forward to.

Apparently.
Who knew that EV Christians believed that:

• we will become as God, inheriting all he has
• we will be engaged in the work of God, and creation is his work
• we will be part of God's eternal family, carrying his name
• we will inherit resurrected bodies and rewards according to our works and level of sanctification

I thought that was all Mormon doctrine. 

[Jane_Doe]

40 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Hebrews explains that Jesus is the Sacrifice, he does away for the need of the sin offerings done in the temple and sets up a new covenant vs 9 and 10. The temple is done away with because we have Jesus as the sacrifice, it is finished, he is the Great high priest forever. No more need for temples.

(Trying to bridge the EV/LDS comprehension gap)

LDS do believe that the Old Covenant was done away with because of Christ's sacrifice, as discussed in Hebrews.  We no longer offer animal sacrifices or kill anything in the temple, and yes Christ is the The High Priest forever.  Now we live in the New Covenant, where we bring our sins and broken hearts to Christ and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.  We love Him.  We first accept Him and enter into His New Covenant through baptism-- where our old self is done away with and new self reborn in Christ.   After that we receive the Holy Ghost, and make further covenants with God.  Each strengthens our bond with Him as we allow Him to more fully encompass us.  Later covenants are made in special holy places specifically for that purpose (temples of the New Covenant) where His Spirit more fully enters us.   

 

[snowflake]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Apparently.
Who knew that EV Christians believed that:

• we will become as God, inheriting all he has
• we will be engaged in the work of God, and creation is his work
• we will be part of God's eternal family, carrying his name
• we will inherit resurrected bodies and rewards according to our works and level of sanctification

I thought that was all Mormon doctrine. 

Not becoming a God, that was promoted by Joseph.  That is also the first lie in the bible, Genesis 3: 4-5

⁴ And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

⁵ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 Other than becoming a "god" I would agree with most of your statement above.

[snowflake]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Trying to bridge the EV/LDS comprehension gap)

LDS do believe that the Old Covenant was done away with because of Christ's sacrifice, as discussed in Hebrews.  We no longer offer animal sacrifices or kill anything in the temple, and yes Christ is the The High Priest forever.  Now we live in the New Covenant, where we bring our sins and broken hearts to Christ and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.  We love Him.  We first accept Him and enter into His New Covenant through baptism-- where our old self is done away with and new self reborn in Christ.   After that we receive the Holy Ghost, and make further covenants with God.  Each strengthens our bond with Him as we allow Him to more fully encompass us.  Later covenants are made in special holy places specifically for that purpose (temples of the New Covenant) where His Spirit more fully enters us.   

 

The LDS temple of the New Covenant is not biblical, again, made up by Joseph and not something that was restored from the NT church.

[Jane_Doe]

(Again, trying to bridge the EV/LDS talking-past-each-other gap)

19 minutes ago, snowflake said:

 That is also the first lie in the bible, Genesis 3: 4-5

⁴ And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

⁵ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The first lie in the Bible was not verse 5, but verse 4: "Ye shall not surely die".  Because of the Fall we all certainly die, physically and spiritually.  Verse 5 was truth, as confirmed in verse 22.  Because of the Fall we are able to know Good and Evil.  It is through Christ's sacrifice that we are able to be resurrected (physically and spiritually).

19 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Other than becoming a "god" I would agree with most of your statement above.

What would you describe as the difference?  (Other than the obvious word choice).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, snowflake said:

The LDS temple of the New Covenant is not biblical, again, made up by Joseph and not something that was restored from the NT church.

You of course are welcome to believe that.   I was merely trying to bridge the comprehension gap and minimize talking past each other. 

I am curious though: do you believe a person should accept Christ as their Lord and Savior in order to be saved?  Assuming the answer is "yes", what all does that entail? 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Not becoming a God, that was promoted by Joseph.  That is also the first lie in the bible, Genesis 3: 4-5

⁴ And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

⁵ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 Other than becoming a "god" I would agree with most of your statement above.

You just provided the references yourself.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads

Oh, and just to be clear, there was no lie in verse 5 "then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"
God confirmed it as true in vs 22

•  ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The serpent was actually telling the truth.

Edited February 23, 2017 by JLHPROF

[snowflake]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You just provided the references yourself.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads

Oh, and just to be clear, there was no lie in verse 5 "then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"
God confirmed it as true in vs 22

•  ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The serpent was actually telling the truth.

Jesus is speaking in Rev 21:7, I have no problem with Jesus being God and I am his adopted son, absolutely.

I will admit that I don't completely understand why the fall was a good thing according to the LDS. All of Christianity view it as a bad thing. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (or good from evil) before the fall?

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I will admit that I don't completely understand why the fall was a good thing according to the LDS. All of Christianity view it as a bad thing. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (or good from evil) before the fall?

God suggested it.  I just agreed with him.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I will admit that I don't completely understand why the fall was a good thing according to the LDS. All of Christianity view it as a bad thing. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong (or good from evil) before the fall?

I don't "completely" understand why the fall was a good thing either, aside from it being a state where we can learn and grow by faith without knowing beyond the shadow of any doubt that our Father can see every little thing we are doing at all times every day because NOTHING is hidden to him!   I mean, sheesh, think of how much it would stunt our growth if we absolutely KNEW he can see everything like that.

And yes, as scripture shows, Adam and Eve did not obtain their knowledge of good and evil until they ate the fruit from that tree, whatever that means.  I think it means, partly, that they didn't know Satan was Satan, or that Satan was evil, or what the difference between good and evil advice is before they ate from that tree.  Not that there was anything special about the fruit from that tree, necessarilty, but that that resulted after they ate from that tree.  With their knowledge of everything before that moment clouded by what we call the "veil" that makes it hard to remember everything we knew before we came here.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Ahab

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I will admit that I don't completely understand why the fall was a good thing according to the LDS. 

Because it was part of God's plan from the beginning-- His plan in which all things work for our good.  Satan didn't pull one over on God or force Him to make up some plan B.  Christ was always supposed to be our Savior and bring the Good News.

[snowflake]

14 hours ago, Ahab said:

I don't "completely" understand why the fall was a good thing either, aside from it being a state where we can learn and grow by faith without knowing beyond the shadow of any doubt that our Father can see every little thing we are doing at all times every day because NOTHING is hidden to him!   I mean, sheesh, think of how much it would stunt our growth if we absolutely KNEW he can see everything like that.

And yes, as scripture shows, Adam and Eve did not obtain their knowledge of good and evil until they ate the fruit from that tree, whatever that means.  I think it means, partly, that they didn't know Satan was Satan, or that Satan was evil, or what the difference between good and evil advice is before they ate from that tree.  Not that there was anything special about the fruit from that tree, necessarilty, but that that resulted after they ate from that tree.  With their knowledge of everything before that moment clouded by what we call the "veil" that makes it hard to remember everything we knew before we came here.

So it was a good thing to disobey God's commandment and eat of the forbidden fruit?  Because of that action, sin and death entered into the world, the world came under a "curse" because of the fall. I think you would be on a very slippery slope every saying that disobeying God is a good thing.

I have to admit that I never thought about the fall the way your take is, in that they didn't know good from evil until they ate the fruit. What's the LDS take on how long they were in the garden before the fall? Biblically speaking we have no idea how long they were in the garden until they ate the forbidden fruit.

[snowflake]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

God suggested it.  I just agreed with him.

I'm not sure if you could be given any kind of decision without the knowledge before hand which choice was "right" and which choice was "wrong". God said don't eat this fruit, by disobeying God they made a choice (wrong choice). I would say that they would have had to have a knowledge of right and wrong before they ate the fruit simply because they were given a choice to disobey God or not.

The LDS take seems to be that they had no say in the act whatsoever, or no free will to decide to eat it or not. Is that correct?

[Jane_Doe]

26 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So it was a good thing to disobey God's commandment and eat of the forbidden fruit?  Because of that action, sin and death entered into the world, the world came under a "curse" because of the fall. I think you would be on a very slippery slope every saying that disobeying God is a good thing.

I have to admit that I never thought about the fall the way your take is, in that they didn't know good from evil until they ate the fruit. What's the LDS take on how long they were in the garden before the fall? Biblically speaking we have no idea how long they were in the garden until they ate the forbidden fruit.

Romans 8:28 - "We know that *ALL* things work together for good to them that love God"  (emphasis mine).  *ALL* things include the Fall and all of His consequences.  God's in control: this was not some backup plan B.

26 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I have to admit that I never thought about the fall the way your take is, in that they didn't know good from evil until they ate the fruit. 

Yep, says it right in the Bible.

26 minutes ago, snowflake said:

What's the LDS take on how long they were in the garden before the fall? Biblically speaking we have no idea how long they were in the garden until they ate the forbidden fruit.

That is also the LDS stance: we do not know how long.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I'm not sure if you could be given any kind of decision without the knowledge before hand which choice was "right" and which choice was "wrong". God said don't eat this fruit, by disobeying God they made a choice (wrong choice). I would say that they would have had to have a knowledge of right and wrong before they ate the fruit simply because they were given a choice to disobey God or not.

We knew before this world was made that this suffering and hardship would be here, and it will work for our good.  We made the choice to follow God's plan for this life- a plan which involved all these worts and death and saving and the Gospel.  

Yes, it is very different to know in theory (what we knew before hand) vs knowing while in the middle of it (what we're going through right now) vs knowing once we're through it and see with perfect knowledge.

14 minutes ago, snowflake said:

The LDS take seems to be that they had no say in the act whatsoever, or no free will to decide to eat it or not. Is that correct?

Quite the opposite: Adam and Eve were in no way forced.  Likewise, every other person had a choice whether or not to come to this world where pain & sin reside.  

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

So it was a good thing to disobey God's commandment and eat of the forbidden fruit?  Because of that action, sin and death entered into the world, the world came under a "curse" because of the fall. I think you would be on a very slippery slope every saying that disobeying God is a good thing.

Sin, yeah, that is a bad thing, but we are able to overcome it through the power of the Lord's atonement, and God had already planned for that before any of us came here.

And the atonement is a good thing, right?

Kinda like making lemonade from lemons, when lemons are on hand, but not necessarily wanting lemons to be on hand even though lemonade is a good thing.

[snowflake]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sin, yeah, that is a bad thing, but we are able to overcome it through the power of the Lord's atonement, and God had already planned for that before any of us came here.

And the atonement is a good thing, right?

Kinda like making lemonade from lemons, when lemons are on hand, but not necessarily wanting lemons to be on hand even though lemonade is a good thing.

I just can't agree with you that what Adam and Eve did was right.  I think they knew it was wrong before hand.  God told Adam specifically in Genesis 2:17 for him not to eat the fruit or they would die. God never says if you eat this fruit you will become wise, God never says you will know good and evil, God never says you will become as gods,  these were all lies from the serpent.

¹⁷ But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The serpent lied and enticed them

⁵ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

⁶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.