MormonLeaks Releases Another 8 Documents Today

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They didn't pay the maids, the church did. 

So were the maids instructed to not paying tithing on the funds they received from the church just as mission presidents are instructed not to?  Or were they expected to pay tithing?

Edited January 25, 2017 by JulieM

[Peppermint Patty]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

At 41:58 Ballard tells the crowd that one cannot truly celebrate Christmas without expressing gratitude for Joseph Smith.

Maybe there's more to the whole "Merry Smithmas" than we previously thought.

[Kenngo1969]

New MormonLeaks?

Oh.  

 

[Buckeye]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

But where does the money come from that pays the Mission President's salary/stipend/expenses?

Does this mean that the 15 don't pay tithing on their salary from the church either?

The last batch of leaked documents included a stipend statement for elder eyring. On it was handwriting (presumably his) calculating tithing to be paid. He calculated on gross, btw. 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I think they get more than just "reimbursement".  When you read through all they get money for, it really is quite a bit actually.  Then their kids go to college for free and missions paid for too, don't they?

True.  I was only speaking to my parents' experience.  Their kids were all grown and on their own when my dad was called to serve as a mission president. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

So were the maids instructed to not paying tithing on the funds they received from the church just as mission presidents are instructed not to?  Or were they expected to pay tithing?

I have no idea. I have no idea what church money has been tithed and what hasn't so I couldn't even guess. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

Which is fine, IMO if they can afford that on what is given them (out of what their parents have paid each month for their mission or whoever is paying).

But who is paying for the maids, cellphones for their teens, etc., for the mission presidents?  That is my question, but maybe no on knows where the funds come out of?

The mission president's wife spends a huge amount of time serving in her calling just as the mission president does.  Also I have seen and heard they have to do a lot of hosting of local officials as well as visiting church authorities.  It makes sense to allow the MP's wife more time so she can put more attention into the physical well being of the couple hundred young adults under her supervision as well as attending to her own family's needs of being away from home without their usual support network of family and friends.

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea. I have no idea what church money has been tithed and what hasn't so I couldn't even guess. 

You see my earlier point, though, right? Regardless of how funded, what the maids are paid is *their* income. Again, I compare this to people saying that you shouldn't pay on gift money because "it's already had tithing paid on it." I've never understood that. At the moment money is paid to someone else, it becomes *their* income. If I pay someone to mow my lawn, their pay from me really has nothing to do with the fact that I already paid tithing on the paycheck from which I got the money to pay them. 

I think that maids in the Phillippines and Brazil pay tithing on their earnings. At least I hope they do.  

The explanation to mission presidents that their pay "has already been tithed," and thus shouldn't have tithing paid on it, is a head-scratcher to me. See above. It doesn't matter how many iterations it's had before being paid, it's income when someone else is paid it. At least as I see it.

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Thanks.  

It's also interesting to see that their married children get health coverage benefits paid and health expenses paid if requested (up to age 26).

And maids are paid for too...(unless they serve in Brazil or the Philippines for some reason )

I imagine this is a tough thing for the church to manage... on one hand you have mission presidents like my dad who was retired and had no kids to take care of.  But the Brethren also want to be able to call younger MP's who are forced to give up their careers and take their families with them.  That can be a huge sacrifice. 

Additionally, you have to consider that the MP's also often need to maintain a large home for housing incoming/outgoing/sick missionaries. They make a lot of meals for zone and area conferences.  They frequently host general authorities.  Etc.

I'm not attempting to justify every aspect of their stipend.   Just offering some thoughts on why it is the way it is. 

 

[JulieM]

24 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

The last batch of leaked documents included a stipend statement for elder eyring. On it was handwriting (presumably his) calculating tithing to be paid. He calculated on gross, btw. 

I think I remember that now... Thanks!

[Thinking]

https://www.docdroid.net/l3weqy5/joseph-bwirthlin-pay-2002.pdf.html

The pay period is 2 weeks, so there are 26 pay periods per year.

$3,209.62x26 = $83,450.12

The median household income in the United States in 2002 was $42,409. Link

The Tax Data Box shows that he specifies the federal ($1,175) and state ($300) withholding amounts.

• It makes sense to specify an amount more than would be necessary if the withheld tax money will be used to cover other taxes that will need to be paid, such as self-employment income.

He also contributes $421.40 to a before taxes savings account.

He contributes $99.15 to an after taxes savings account. The church matches this deposit. Since the money in this account has already been taxed, he can use it anytime.

The reimbursement of self-employment tax ($6,194) indicates that he made at least $40,000 in self-employment income (possibly from book sales). The reimbursement is counted as income and adds to his tax liability.

• Note: self-employment tax is separate from income tax.

It's interesting that he pays a premium of $50.02 for health insurance (DMBA).

In my opinion the so called living allowance is not modest, but he's not getting rich either.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Thinking

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

You see my earlier point, though, right? Regardless of how funded, what the maids are paid is *their* income. Again, I compare this to people saying that you shouldn't pay on gift money because "it's already had tithing paid on it." I've never understood that. At the moment money is paid to someone else, it becomes *their* income. If I pay someone to mow my lawn, their pay from me really has nothing to do with the fact that I already paid tithing on the paycheck from which I got the money to pay them. 

I think that maids in the Phillippines and Brazil pay tithing on their earnings. At least I hope they do.  

The explanation to mission presidents that their pay "has already been tithed," and thus shouldn't have tithing paid on it, is a head-scratcher to me. See above. It doesn't matter how many iterations it's had before being paid, it's income when someone else is paid it. At least as I see it.

Did you pay tithing when you were on your mission then?

[sjdawg]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

They didn't pay the maids, the church did.  I think it was mostly to provide the women with jobs. 

When I was a missionary we paid someone to do our laundry (out of the small amount we received to cover our monthly expenses).   The expense was minimal and we had no choice as we didn't have access to a laundromat and our apartment had no washing machine.  

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I imagine this is a tough thing for the church to manage... on one hand you have mission presidents like my dad who was retired and had no kids to take care of.  But the Brethren also want to be able to call younger MP's who are forced to give up their careers and take their families with them.  That can be a huge sacrifice. 

Additionally, you have to consider that the MP's also often need to maintain a large home for housing incoming/outgoing/sick missionaries. They make a lot of meals for zone and area conferences.  They frequently host general authorities.  Etc.

I'm not attempting to justify every aspect of their stipend.   Just offering some thoughts on why it is the way it is. 

 

My Mission President in Portugal had a huge home with a guest house however incoming/outgoing/sick missionaries were not allowed to use it.   (Previous mission president had the missionaries stay there).  Our Mission President and his wife were not very fond of missionaries and we were put in hotels when we needed to be near the mission home.  When I was outbound (along with approx 10 other missionaries) we were not to visit the mission home (they actually made us call it the home of the Mission president to emphasize it was theirs and not ours) but the Mission President and his wife met us a a restaurant for a short meal (think 45 minutes or less) to thank us for our service and then we were sent to our hotel rooms for the rest of the evening.  A hired shuttle bus took us to the airport the next morning.

 

[Duncan]

This mission has a hired member to do house cleaning and help with dinners and other household junk

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

My Mission President in Portugal had a huge home with a guest house however incoming/outgoing/sick missionaries were not allowed to use it.   (Previous mission president had the missionaries stay there).  Our Mission President and his wife were not very fond of missionaries and we were put in hotels when we needed to be near the mission home.  When I was outbound (along with approx 10 other missionaries) we were not to visit the mission home (they actually made us call it the home of the Mission president to emphasize it was theirs and not ours) but the Mission President and his wife met us a a restaurant for a short meal (think 45 minutes or less) to thank us for our service and then we were sent to our hotel rooms for the rest of the evening.  A hired shuttle bus took us to the airport the next morning.

 

That's sad. 😔

[Thinking]

34 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

When I was a missionary we paid someone to do our laundry (out of the small amount we received to cover our monthly expenses).   The expense was minimal and we had no choice as we didn't have access to a laundromat and our apartment had no washing machine.  

There were many times on my mission in Peru that we had to wash our clothes by hand and line dry them. My suits were so discolored that they went into the garbage as soon as I got home.

[sjdawg]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's sad. 😔

It was a little bit.  I had two mission presidents and they could not have been more different.   The first was possible the warmest most welcoming human being I have ever met and the 2nd was very cold and distant.  

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

The explanation to mission presidents that their pay "has already been tithed," and thus shouldn't have tithing paid on it, is a head-scratcher to me. See above. It doesn't matter how many iterations it's had before being paid, it's income when someone else is paid it. At least as I see it.

Yep, these leakers are really doing us a service.  Now we can simply ignre them as apostles and prophets, and examine their financials as simply wager earners, and we can fine tune their  budgeting.  

Edited January 25, 2017 by cdowis

[SteveO]

...where's "White Salamander Letter v.2.0"???

You suppose they're ever going to start thinking this whole "leaks" thing kind of backfired?  

There's nothing here.

[Duncan]

Just now, SteveO said:

...where's "White Salamander Letter v.2.0"???

You suppose they're ever going to start thinking this whole "leaks" thing kind of backfired?  

There's nothing here.

More bore!

[Benjamin Seeker]

What the leaks are providing is something the church has refused to provide, a bit of financial transparency. We are starting to have a bit of an idea of how things are run. Misconceptions, good and bad, are being put to rest. If you're bored, be thankful there is nothing to get too fired up about.

Personally, I appreciate having some actual numbers instead of the vague word "modest," which was easily interpreted in many ways as the post-leak discussions have amply shown. I'm looking forward to more leaks and learning about how our church is financially administered.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

What the leaks are providing is something the church has refused to provide, a bit of financial transparency. We are starting to have a bit of an idea of how things are run. Misconceptions, good and bad, are being put to rest. If you're bored, be thankful there is nothing to get too fired up about.

Personally, I appreciate having some actual numbers instead of the vague word "modest," which was easily interpreted in many ways as the post-leak discussions have amply shown. I'm looking forward to more leaks and learning about how our church is financially administered.

Well said, I agree.  For those who find these leaks totally boring - that's great!  Many of the leaks haven't been interesting enough for me to review.  But some are.  And some, like the stipend paystubs have certainly been big news.

[rongo]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

Did you pay tithing when you were on your mission then?

On what? I had no income as a missionary. Monthly MSF checks to the companionship (for train tickets, some food, etc.) weren't income. 

And, we didn't receive any instructions not to report it to the IRS, or even tell the area presidency about it (that part sounds weird to me).  

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, rongo said:

Monthly MSF checks to the companionship (for train tickets, some food, etc.) weren't income. 

I see a big difference between the companionship MSF check (I guess they're all electronic now with cards, right?), and the mission presidents' pay. For one thing, it's the mission presidents' to keep. And, there are the forceful instructions about not telling anyone, even the area presidency.