Jana Reiss - New Tithing Study

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

  You and I nor any member in the rank and file have any idea what goes on at the highest levels of Church expenditures. 

Which is why it's really annoying when people assume the worst.  

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Which is why it's really annoying when people assume the worst.  

Who assumed the worst?

I am not going to go down the road of arguing about open finances and the LDS church.   Been there a myriad of times on this board and it is not worth the discussion.   So in my comments above I simply state it as a fact that nobody can know whether the church wastes money or not since it does not publish financial data.  And that is true.   So to make broad sweeping claims either way is silly.   I have not done that on this thread.   But others who cannot know have.  I did point out that there are a number of very large and public real estate projects tha church has been involved in that some may find wasteful and others my find them a prudent investment.  

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Who assumed the worst?

I am not going to go down the road of arguing about open finances and the LDS church.   Been there a myriad of times on this board and it is not worth the discussion.   So in my comments above I simply state it as a fact that nobody can know whether the church wastes money or not since it does not publish financial data.  And that is true.   So to make broad sweeping claims either way is silly.   I have not done that on this thread.   But others who cannot know have.  I did point out that there are a number of very large and public real estate projects tha church has been involved in that some may find wasteful and others my find them a prudent investment.  

I know you haven't done that, and my comment wasn't directed at you.  Many do assume the worst though.  Tacenda in this thread stated as a fact that the church wastes our tithing money and we should all pay on net so they have less to squander (she then amended it to her opinion that the church wastes our tithing money when she was issued a CFR).

 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, BCSpace said:

Quite serious, yes.  The difference is, as opposed to your view, I am in complete harmony with the doctrine...oh wait...you don't believe the LDS Church even has doctrine, right?

Complete harmony? How have you not been translated yet?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I know you haven't done that, and my comment wasn't directed at you.  Many do assume the worst though.  Tacenda in this thread stated as a fact that the church wastes our tithing money and we should all pay on net so they have less to squander (she then amended it to her opinion that the church wastes our tithing money when she was issued a CFR).

 

I guess it was so plain for me to see. I guess I really am not very loyal to the church as most on this board. The church is very frugal or careful how they spend at times. I remember not being able to make copies as easily as the secretary in Relief Society. I was in charge of the newsletter and other items. Our copier in the library was too slow and we were only allowed a certain amount. We were only allowed to use another copier on Saturdays in a locked smaller room. Then that was taken and put into the Stake offices. It became a headache for all because the pain it was to get copies from a very old printer that was constantly getting repaired rather than replaced. So in that respect, yes the church was reusing. And rather than pay janitors, the members now clean most of the church. So again, very frugal. But when it comes to other scenarios, the church goes all out, great!

[Teancum]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess it was so plain for me to see. I guess I really am not very loyal to the church as most on this board. The church is very frugal or careful how they spend at times. I remember not being able to make copies as easily as the secretary in Relief Society. I was in charge of the newsletter and other items. Our copier in the library was too slow and we were only allowed a certain amount. We were only allowed to use another copier on Saturdays in a locked smaller room. Then that was taken and put into the Stake offices. It became a headache for all because the pain it was to get copies from a very old printer that was constantly getting repaired rather than replaced. So in that respect, yes the church was reusing. And rather than pay janitors, the members now clean most of the church. So again, very frugal. But when it comes to other scenarios, the church goes all out, great!

Your opinion on this is as valid as anyone else's here. You gave some examples of what you thought was wasteful.  Personally I think the members cleaning rather than janitors was not so much frugal as it was cheap.   The members run the wards and stakes already at great sacrifice.  To add cleaning buildings IMO was simply ridiculous. I do it but I do it grudgingly.  How do we know but this labor cutting cost saving was not due to some mismanagement of $ somewhere else.  Well problem is we don't because there is no transparency or accountability by those who manage the money members give often at great sacrifice,  

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know you haven't done that, and my comment wasn't directed at you.  Many do assume the worst though.  Tacenda in this thread stated as a fact that the church wastes our tithing money and we should all pay on net so they have less to squander (she then amended it to her opinion that the church wastes our tithing money when she was issued a CFR).

 

When did I say the bold?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

When did I say the bold?

Actually you said on "increase", perhaps bluebell didn't realize you didn't mean "net",

"The church wastes a lot of your tithing money, IMO. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply."

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

.  Well problem is we don't because there is no transparency or accountability by those who manage the money members give often at great sacrifice,  

I don't recall it being the widow's concern what her mite what to be used for.  She was blessed simply in the giving.

[cdowis]

The results may be tainted by poor controls.  For example, did they control the sample for such factors as "converts" vs "born in the church" 

Garbage In, Garbage out.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I guess it was so plain for me to see. I guess I really am not very loyal to the church as most on this board. The church is very frugal or careful how they spend at times. I remember not being able to make copies as easily as the secretary in Relief Society. I was in charge of the newsletter and other items. Our copier in the library was too slow and we were only allowed a certain amount. We were only allowed to use another copier on Saturdays in a locked smaller room. Then that was taken and put into the Stake offices. It became a headache for all because the pain it was to get copies from a very old printer that was constantly getting repaired rather than replaced. So in that respect, yes the church was reusing. And rather than pay janitors, the members now clean most of the church. So again, very frugal. But when it comes to other scenarios, the church goes all out, great!

I don't really see it as an issue of loyalty so much as an issue of speaking accurately.   

[Teancum]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't recall it being the widow's concern what her mite what to be used for.  She was blessed simply in the giving.

So?  We live in a different world.  If you don't think so I assume you would be fine giving over your retirement money to Bernie Madoff.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't really see it as an issue of loyalty so much as an issue of speaking accurately.   

Bluebell, how do you know more than I? Do you have first hand experience at discrepancies such as I noted in another post. When our ward building went months with a bad copier. Many times I would just go buy copies at the store. So the church can spend thousands on a prop (this was a few years ago and it did help a woman who made it) and throw it away, but they stall on getting a new copier? I have heard from a member on this board about other scenarios who was/is a bishop. I now can't think of his name but he posts and I believe he has a British flag as his avatar that said his church was falling apart and they couldn't get the needed work done. 

[bluebell]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Bluebell, how do you know more than I? Do you have first hand experience at discrepancies such as I noted in another post. When our ward building went months with a bad copier. Many times I would just go buy copies at the store. So the church can spend thousands on a prop (this was a few years ago and it did help a woman who made it) and throw it away, but they stall on getting a new copier? I have heard from a member on this board about other scenarios who was/is a bishop. I now can't think of his name but he posts and I believe he has a British flag as his avatar that said his church was falling apart and they couldn't get the needed work done. 

I don't know more than you.  And that's why i don't make statements of fact as if i do.   

What i do know is that it's almost impossible to know whether or not the way someone manages money is moral if you have no information on why they are making the decisions they are or what they are working with.  

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yet this only speaks to the Ward and stake level. I have been both a bishop and a state auditor as well

  You and I nor any member in the rank and file have any idea what goes on at the highest levels of Church expenditures. 

Which means we have no basis for criticizing what we don't know.

I DO know real estate investing, and I have absolutely no problem with real estate investments for the church because I know they are low risk and highly lucrative, and make money in any economic situation- obviously some economies are better than others.

The church has many missions- including many I am sure that we do not know about.  But we do know that the "establishment of Zion" is one we can be confident that the 15 are thinking about, and that is going to take some serious money to gather thousands of people together into a great city and establish a new economy from absolutely nothing, after, as the belief goes, much of the earth has been destroyed and the population which makes it to Zion will be in the status of penniless refugees, perhaps full of the spirit, but without wealth.

Were I an apostle, that would be a major consideration to weigh in deciding how much support we should give the poor today vs providing for the future monumental expense of building Zion, building temples which build spirituality, and then advertising budgets for missionary efforts.

You are right that we have no idea what really goes on, but I do know that those would be some of my major considerations which would encourage me to lean toward finding large-scale investment opportunities which would fund the church far into the future.  Yes there are welfare considerations today, but I would also be thinking about welfare concerns following earthquakes and civil wars yet to come which dwarf today's needs.  On the other hand, I would also be aware that critics would have a field-day with those kind of decisions without any clue about what I was certain about for the future.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Actually you said on "increase", perhaps bluebell didn't realize you didn't mean "net",

"The church wastes a lot of your tithing money, IMO. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply."

I think some do not understand that "increase" does not mean "profit" or "how much better off I am this year than last year"

On this theory, if I made $50k last year and $60k this year, I would owe tithing on the increase of $10k.

I am not sure that is what is happening here, but I think this might be the misunderstanding.

[Teancum]

52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Which means we have no basis for criticizing what we don't know.

I DO know real estate investing, and I have absolutely no problem with real estate investments for the church because I know they are low risk and highly lucrative, and make money in any economic situation- obviously some economies are better than others.

The church has many missions- including many I am sure that we do not know about.  But we do know that the "establishment of Zion" is one we can be confident that the 15 are thinking about, and that is going to take some serious money to gather thousands of people together into a great city and establish a new economy from absolutely nothing, after, as the belief goes, much of the earth has been destroyed and the population which makes it to Zion will be in the status of penniless refugees, perhaps full of the spirit, but without wealth.

Were I an apostle, that would be a major consideration to weigh in deciding how much support we should give the poor today vs providing for the future monumental expense of building Zion, building temples which build spirituality, and then advertising budgets for missionary efforts.

You are right that we have no idea what really goes on, but I do know that those would be some of my major considerations which would encourage me to lean toward finding large-scale investment opportunities which would fund the church far into the future.  Yes there are welfare considerations today, but I would also be thinking about welfare concerns following earthquakes and civil wars yet to come which dwarf today's needs.  On the other hand, I would also be aware that critics would have a field-day with those kind of decisions without any clue about what I was certain about for the future.

Which means there is no basis for claiming the church does not waste money as you did.  If one has no basis to criticize one has no basis to claim the church does not waste money.

and do you know real estate investing?  Low risk?   Hardly.  Just look at the real estate melt down of 2008.   Real estate is a highly risky investment.  I work with people who invest in all sorts of real estate,   Some do quite well.  Others not so much.   Just like most investments..Your comment lends me to think you really don't know real estate or your experience with it is in a very narrow geographic location.  

As for the rest of your remarks......we'll ok.  The end of the world has been coming since whenever people could speculate about such things.  I would not hold my breath nor invest based on such things. My guess is the LDS church leaders don't either.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

The results may be tainted by poor controls.  For example, did they control the sample for such factors as "converts" vs "born in the church" 

Garbage In, Garbage out.

If I understand the linking correctly, she is gathering data from other studies as well as her own stuff:

http://religionnews.com/2016/04/14/mormons-20s-30s-leaving-lds-church/

From her article:

http://religionnews.com/2016/12/26/study-shows-young-adult-mormons-are-most-likely-generation-to-tithe-but-theres-a-catch/

* The fine print: The entire survey garnered 1696 complete responses, including both the “current” and the “former” samples. For this question on tithing, 1155 people who self-identified as current Mormons responded. (This only includes current Mormons, not those who have left the Church; the more than 500 former Mormons who participated in our survey were not asked this particular question.)

The Baby Boomers (born from 1945-1964) are combined with the Silent Generation (born from 1928 to 1944) because we did not have enough members of the Silent Generation to be able to make reliable conclusions from that generation by itself. The margin of error would be too high. 

But if you’re interested, 62% of our Silent Generation members said they pay tithing from gross income, and only 11% pay from their after-tax income. That means the SGs have the highest rate of tithing overall (73%) and are more than 20 points higher than Millennials and GenXers in the percentage who tithe from their before-tax income.

For simplicity, percentages have been rounded up or down so that 68.3% becomes 68% and 69.6% becomes 70%. As a result, the tallies when any two numbers are added together (e.g., gross tithers + net tithers = all tithers) will be within one percentage point of the correct total but may not be exact.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Here is a link to her original description.  Given that she addresses parental influence as the number one factor in predicting millennial behaviour and it is a four generational study, Iwould be shocked if the convert/bic wasn't asked.

http://religionnews.com/2016/07/15/the-next-mormons-who-they-are-what-they-want-and-how-the-lds-church-is-changing/

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Which means there is no basis for claiming the church does not waste money as you did.  If one has no basis to criticize one has no basis to claim the church does not waste money.

and do you know real estate investing?  Low risk?   Hardly.  Just look at the real estate melt down of 2008.   Real estate is a highly risky investment.  I work with people who invest in all sorts of real estate,   Some do quite well.  Others not so much.   Just like most investments..Your comment lends me to think you really don't know real estate or your experience with it is in a very narrow geographic location.  

As for the rest of your remarks......we'll ok.  The end of the world has been coming since whenever people could speculate about such things.  I would not hold my breath nor invest based on such things. My guess is the LDS church leaders don't either.

LOL

There is a real estate investment strategy for each economy.  My clients were lending hard money in the downturn as they always do and made out like bandits, foreclosing on the speculators who didn't see it coming.  If you need income you buy free and clear property and get the highest rents you can.  Most RE investors are mom and pop investors who do not have enough capital to hang on.  They bet on continued growth and always get hit on the downturn when the bubble bursts.  They go in with 3% down with adjustable mortgages and when the market turns, they are gone with the wind.

You really think owning shopping malls in stable metropolitan areas free and clear is risky?   That is laughable.

You can have the government and the strongest corporations that exist for tenants.  You can rent to the post office and government offices.   THAT is investment grade real estate, not some house with 5% down.

Very narrow geographic area?  You bet your life!  Why buy in random locations or where there is more risk in one-horse towns where if one industry goes down, it's all over??

I have been at it 30+ years and know the bubbles and how to ride them down and up.

The only people who lost out in the decline 1- didn't see it coming, so they were fools, AND were highly leveraged and did not have the cash flow to make it through the hard times.

You can invest in REITS, you can invest IRA funds,  you can make loans, and buy options. There are tax lien sales, and all kinds of tax shelters with charitable trusts, 1031 exchanges- the list goes on and on.

You have to know the business, have a lot of cash, and know the economy and how to spot cycles.   This is a very hazardous time right now for RE because it all depends on interest rates.   As rates go up, you should be lending and only buy with very low leverage if any.  You should have cash available to buy out those who did not see it coming.

Right now with the changes in the last few years in Reg D, it is a great time again to be forming REITS.   The advertising restrictions have been greatly relaxed and you can put together groups to buy commercial real estate free and clear quite easily.   If it goes up, great, if it goes down you have the cash flow from the rents to ride it out- no biggie.

THIS is the way the church invests.

Do you really think owning a place like City Creek is "risky"- when you have enough capital to hang on even if every tenant went upside down? (that would require an economic melt down much worse than anything the US have ever experienced, and even then you still own bricks and mortar that could be converted into housing- whatever! )

Let me talk to your friends and I will teach them now to invest in RE with low risk if they do not know how to do it.  If they don't have cash, they can use their IRA money and buy a building with the government as a tenant with rents which go up every year.

But I suppose the government could go bankrupt?   They just print some more money as they always have.   It's probably the safest IRA you can have.  It's essentially a high interest government bond- and where can you get those in your IRA?

Edited January 2, 2017 by mfbukowski

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Here is a link to her original description.  Given that she addresses parental influence as the number one factor in predicting millennial behaviour and it is a four generational study, Iwould be shocked if the convert/bic wasn't asked.

http://religionnews.com/2016/07/15/the-next-mormons-who-they-are-what-they-want-and-how-the-lds-church-is-changing/

Very little shocks me when it comes to research methodologies.  I would hope to see the results of comparing convert vs bic on tithing behaviour, but you are probably right.

Surely they are not so incompetent.

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

II simply state it as a fact that nobody can know whether the church wastes money or not since it does not publish financial data.

This is a good reason for the Church not to release this information.  If it did, people would nitpick this and that and perhaps demand explanation on why X amount of dollars was spent on this.  The Church constantly having to justify it actions and a group of people who will just complain regardless of the reasons.  I don't believe the Church needs to be bogged down on always having to justify why it does things.  Waste to one person might be not waste to another.  People often see waste as outsiders but if they knew all the fact it might not be as much waste as they think.  Would I like to know this info?  Sure but I don't see the Church gaining much benefit by me having my curiosity satisfied.

Edited January 2, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

This is a good reason for the Church not to release this information.  If it did, people would nitpick this and that and perhaps demand explanation on why X amount of dollars was spent on this.  The Church constantly having to justify it actions and a group of people who will just complain regardless of the reasons.  I don't believe the Church needs to be bogged down on always having to justify why it does things.  Waste to one person might be not waste to another.  People often see waste as outsiders but if they knew all the fact it might not be as much waste as they think.  Would I like to know this info?  Sure but I don't see the Church gaining much benefit by me having my curiosity satisfied.

That is not a good reason IMO.  But I said I was not going to argue about this issue.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

LOL

There is a real estate investment strategy for each economy.  My clients were lending hard money in the downturn as they always do and made out like bandits, foreclosing on the speculators who didn't see it coming.  If you need income you buy free and clear property and get the highest rents you can.  Most RE investors are mom and pop investors who do not have enough capital to hang on.  They bet on continued growth and always get hit on the downturn when the bubble bursts.  They go in with 3% down with adjustable mortgages and when the market turns, they are gone with the wind.

You really think owning shopping malls in stable metropolitan areas free and clear is risky?   That is laughable.

You can have the government and the strongest corporations that exist for tenants.  You can rent to the post office and government offices.   THAT is investment grade real estate, not some house with 5% down.

Very narrow geographic area?  You bet your life!  Why buy in random locations or where there is more risk in one-horse towns where if one industry goes down, it's all over??

I have been at it 30+ years and know the bubbles and how to ride them down and up.

The only people who lost out in the decline 1- didn't see it coming, so they were fools, AND were highly leveraged and did not have the cash flow to make it through the hard times.

You can invest in REITS, you can invest IRA funds,  you can make loans, and buy options. There are tax lien sales, and all kinds of tax shelters with charitable trusts, 1031 exchanges- the list goes on and on.

You have to know the business, have a lot of cash, and know the economy and how to spot cycles.   This is a very hazardous time right now for RE because it all depends on interest rates.   As rates go up, you should be lending and only buy with very low leverage if any.  You should have cash available to buy out those who did not see it coming.

Right now with the changes in the last few years in Reg D, it is a great time again to be forming REITS.   The advertising restrictions have been greatly relaxed and you can put together groups to buy commercial real estate free and clear quite easily.   If it goes up, great, if it goes down you have the cash flow from the rents to ride it out- no biggie.

THIS is the way the church invests.

Do you really think owning a place like City Creek is "risky"- when you have enough capital to hang on even if every tenant went upside down? (that would require an economic melt down much worse than anything the US have ever experienced, and even then you still own bricks and mortar that could be converted into housing- whatever! )

Let me talk to your friends and I will teach them now to invest in RE with low risk if they do not know how to do it.  If they don't have cash, they can use their IRA money and buy a building with the government as a tenant with rents which go up every year.

But I suppose the government could go bankrupt?   They just print some more money as they always have.   It's probably the safest IRA you can have.  It's essentially a high interest government bond- and where can you get those in your IRA?

So you are a real estate professional?  

Well I don't know where you live but where I live there is an empty mall that was built in a spot it never should have been built in   And a downtown beautiful 28 floor office building just sold for $5 million.  I similar new structure would cost ten to twenty times that to build.   Lots of empty office space as well.

People who didn't see the housing crisis coming were fools?

 

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

So?  We live in a different world.  If you don't think so I assume you would be fine giving over your retirement money to Bernie Madoff.

If you see tithing as an investment that might be the problem.
Tithing is a commandment to turn give a portion of your property to God's representatives.
That is the beginning and end of your concern with that property.