Tacenda Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: If you see tithing as an investment that might be the problem. Tithing is a commandment to turn give a portion of your property to God's representatives. That is the beginning and end of your concern with that property. It is a little hard when you're giving it to a corporation.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Teancum said: So you are a real estate professional? Well I don't know where you live but where I live there is an empty mall that was built in a spot it never should have been built in And a downtown beautiful 28 floor office building just sold for $5 million. I similar new structure would cost ten to twenty times that to build. Lots of empty office space as well. People who didn't see the housing crisis coming were fools? Real estate and financial planning but I specialize in estate planning for people who own real estate. If that's the market you live in, move. Fools? Of course- the govt through fannie and freddie created the balloon, everybody I know knows that. http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/01/10/one-bad-law-usually-leads-to-others-the-housing-bubble-and-dodd-frank/#32052bf8281e You could get a mortgage on anything with people who could barely fog a mirror due to the govt wanting to create affordable housing. It was ridiculous You could see it coming in 2006. You have to sell when you see the top coming- and it's just about to happen all over again as rates go up, commercial RE will go down. Simple economics. Time to be in cash positions so you can buy 28 storey buildings for 5 M. Unless they are in an area that can't support them, perhaps like yours. Tip of the day: Put together REITS and make hard money loans- firsts only. Ride the rates up. Edited January 2, 2017 by mfbukowski
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2017 Author Posted January 2, 2017 51 minutes ago, Tacenda said: It is a little hard when you're giving it to a corporation. Not for me, but I understand that it could be for others. D&C 119: 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. I pay my tenth as the Lord commanded (net/gross/interest discussion aside). What happens to the money after that is not my concern in any way, shape, or form. It's not my money. This is NOT like paying taxes that the government misuses. Which I still do as well. If you could prove to me that my Bishop was using it to fly to strip shows in Vegas or that my tithing was being funneled directly into President Monson's personal account, I still wouldn't care nor stop paying. But heaven help the men that misuse tithing funds. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 22 hours ago, BCSpace said: I just look at how Conservative it is. Conservatism is an accurate reflection of LDS doctrine and in that case, the more Conservative an administration is, the less worried I am about the personal corruption of politicians. That would be fine if and only if one could define "conservative" in a coherent way so as to describe a substantive position or view on a wide array of matters. Since "conservative" is almost solely an emotional stance, that proves to be difficult. The same applies to "liberal." 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 13 hours ago, Teancum said: I have no question the church does a lot of good things for many people. And often when people complain that the direct humanitarian aid is likely low compared to the assets and annual income of the church I point out that one simply must included fast offering assistance in this which most don't when being critical. This raises. The number of caring for the poor by a likely very large amount. However that said I question the validity of your last sentence and how you can substianet this claim as the church does not publish financial information. Actually, the LDS Church publishes a plethora of concrete data, and it is evaluated on its merits. See my now outdated “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .
Tacenda Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Not for me, but I understand that it could be for others. D&C 119: 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. I pay my tenth as the Lord commanded (net/gross/interest discussion aside). What happens to the money after that is not my concern in any way, shape, or form. It's not my money. This is NOT like paying taxes that the government misuses. Which I still do as well. If you could prove to me that my Bishop was using it to fly to strip shows in Vegas or that my tithing was being funneled directly into President Monson's personal account, I still wouldn't care nor stop paying. But heaven help the men that misuse tithing funds. I don't believe this would ever occur, the leaders misusing in such a way as you describe. I guess I waffle between supporting the church and then not. I have a love/hate relationship sometimes. I do see the good, but sometimes wish we were more down to earth too. We are quite the nice looking church for sure. We do like to look nice in many areas. But at the same time, we aren't to overspend or be materialistic. But the church appears to be that way when it invests in places like the mall and all it's glitz and extravagence, like a stream running through the mall with fish! There is just too much to mention, the list goes on and on. My MIL is extremely careful with her money, or when her husband was alive, their money. They only shopped at the D.I. for clothing and even shoes. They've stayed in the same home, under 1500 square feet that they built. In fact while helping with it she broke her arm and didn't get the required treatment and to this day she can't straighten her arm. They've always grown a garden and have food storage galore. They went to the temple on a weekly basis. She's always talked about making things your idols and to be careful not to do that. She is an amazing woman to be sure. I'd hate for her to see the City Creek Mall, I think she would be dissappointed, especially since knowing that her and her husband gave to the church on top of tithing. They both told their children they would give a lot of their inheritances to the church because they saw that their children were doing well enough without it. I don't know how serious they were, but that is why my husband won't pay tithing now (this has only been a short time, before that we were gross mostly and full tithe payers our entire married life). He worked and was promised it would be worth it later if he stayed with his dad's company at a lower rate of pay than if he'd gone elsewhere. So he's pretty ticked the church is getting it now. Edited January 2, 2017 by Tacenda 1
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: It is a little hard when you're giving it to a corporation. Would you prefer a partnership or sole proprietorship?
Tacenda Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Would you prefer a partnership or sole proprietorship? I would prefer a little chapel, with a preacher and their partner/wife/husband who takes care of their flock. A church that posts their intake of monies and their expenditures in a monthly newsletter. A showing of humanitarian efforts and lots of service projects. Maybe that's my problem, the church is so big and not individualized in each ward. Each ward sending their tithing to Salt Lake and not keeping it in their wards. The ward only getting a small portion. But I understand that isn't my church. In fact it might take most my life to find a perfect church out there that does what I would like. 2
sjdawg Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 1/1/2017 at 2:44 AM, JLHPROF said: 1. The Church doesn't "waste" money and there has been no evidence to support that. Never?
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I would prefer a little chapel, with a preacher and their partner/wife/husband who takes care of their flock. A church that posts their intake of monies and their expenditures in a monthly newsletter. A showing of humanitarian efforts and lots of service projects. Maybe that's my problem, the church is so big and not individualized in each ward. Each ward sending their tithing to Salt Lake and not keeping it in their wards. The ward only getting a small portion. But I understand that isn't my church. In fact it might take most my life to find a perfect church out there that does what I would like. I see more waste and financial foolishness in small churches. 1
sjdawg Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: This is a good reason for the Church not to release this information. If it did, people would nitpick this and that and perhaps demand explanation on why X amount of dollars was spent on this. The Church constantly having to justify it actions and a group of people who will just complain regardless of the reasons. I don't believe the Church needs to be bogged down on always having to justify why it does things. Waste to one person might be not waste to another. People often see waste as outsiders but if they knew all the fact it might not be as much waste as they think. Would I like to know this info? Sure but I don't see the Church gaining much benefit by me having my curiosity satisfied. A good reason for them to release it is to provide transparency to those donated thousands of dollars each year. I look at the reports of institutions I donate to. I want to know where my money will do those most good. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2017 Author Posted January 2, 2017 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'd hate for her to see the City Creek Mall, I think she would be dissappointed, especially since knowing that her and her husband gave to the church on top of tithing. I really don't know what your issue with City Creek Mall is. It was not paid for out of tithing funds. The Church at this point in the game has so many investments, properties, etc that tithing hasn't been their only source of revenue in decades. While we can never know for sure I think it's a safe bet that not a single tithing dollar went towards those projects. And even if they did and we wanted to help the poor instead: Pretty sure City Creek is providing for a LOT of people that would be unemployed and poor without it. 2
Jeanne Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: I would prefer a little chapel, with a preacher and their partner/wife/husband who takes care of their flock. A church that posts their intake of monies and their expenditures in a monthly newsletter. A showing of humanitarian efforts and lots of service projects. Maybe that's my problem, the church is so big and not individualized in each ward. Each ward sending their tithing to Salt Lake and not keeping it in their wards. The ward only getting a small portion. But I understand that isn't my church. In fact it might take most my life to find a perfect church out there that does what I would like. Absolutely my dream. A small chapel..lots of service and love. Women/Men co-partners in spirituality and donations..projects..that benefit everyone. It would be so easy Tacenda and to love going to church..wow..a dream. Edited to add: I have always wondered about some conversations here and elsewhere about people who say they live in "rich" wards...where they have everything and tithing dollars are maxed. What does this say about your mother in law, her deligence and my little grandma and her coin purse. The whole thing is not what tithing is really all about any way...when we give to the Lord...we don't have to use our pride..and all the extravagance be damned. Edited January 2, 2017 by Jeanne 2
Jeanne Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 Another thought...my Dad won a lawsuit from an injury at work. Every month he would gather the family around and have us count the many dollars in the envelope for tithing..proud much? My mom went without many necessities and us kids took on jobs to make the house payment...Then...she was left outside Temple gates because she was not up on tithing on her little part time job. 1
Teancum Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 17 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If you see tithing as an investment that might be the problem. Tithing is a commandment to turn give a portion of your property to God's representatives. That is the beginning and end of your concern with that property. I don't view tithing as an investment. But I do view charitable giving as something to take seriously and like to understand where and how the money is used by the organizations I give to. I was giving to one organization before I did some research on them. When I found little $ went to the intended purpose I stopped giving. 2
Teancum Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 17 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Real estate and financial planning but I specialize in estate planning for people who own real estate. If that's the market you live in, move. Fools? Of course- the govt through fannie and freddie created the balloon, everybody I know knows that. http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/01/10/one-bad-law-usually-leads-to-others-the-housing-bubble-and-dodd-frank/#32052bf8281e You could get a mortgage on anything with people who could barely fog a mirror due to the govt wanting to create affordable housing. It was ridiculous You could see it coming in 2006. You have to sell when you see the top coming- and it's just about to happen all over again as rates go up, commercial RE will go down. Simple economics. Time to be in cash positions so you can buy 28 storey buildings for 5 M. Unless they are in an area that can't support them, perhaps like yours. Tip of the day: Put together REITS and make hard money loans- firsts only. Ride the rates up. Well I apologize for thinking you did not know about real estate. You know what they say about assuming. Cant really move. My business is where I live and at this point in life it is to late to change and I would lose too much financially to move. You and I and others whose circles we run in may have seen the real estate crisis coming but that many did not. I am not sure that makes them fools.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: I see more waste and financial foolishness in small churches. Can you give us some specific examples?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Actually, the LDS Church publishes a plethora of concrete data, and it is evaluated on its merits. See my now outdated “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures . This is all good info and I have seem much of it. But it is a far cry from an accounting of income and expenditures like all non church NFPs do in the USA over a nominal amount of annual donations as well many churches. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Teancum said: This is all good info and I have seem much of it. But it is a far cry from an accounting of income and expenditures like all non church NFPs do in the USA over a nominal amount of annual donations as well many churches. The information I provided (already available from the LDS Church) falsifies your initial claim that they do not provide such data. It is correct to say that the LDS Church does not submit to the sort of independent audit which is normal for say the Billy Graham Evangelistsic Association (BGEA), and I consider that unfortunate. I don't think they have anything to hide, and would like to see a publicly available annual audit.
Tacenda Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The information I provided (already available from the LDS Church) falsifies your initial claim that they do not provide such data. It is correct to say that the LDS Church does not submit to the sort of independent audit which is normal for say the Billy Graham Evangelistsic Association (BGEA), and I consider that unfortunate. I don't think they have anything to hide, and would like to see a publicly available annual audit. https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483395846&sr=1-1&keywords=d.+michael+quinn I'm wondering what this book will say about the church's wealth. It says it's coming out next month.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483395846&sr=1-1&keywords=d.+michael+quinn I'm wondering what this book will say about the church's wealth. It says it's coming out next month. Quinn is brilliant, and his book will be well worth reading. 2
mnn727 Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 12/30/2016 at 7:51 PM, bsjkki said: We used to always pay tithing on gross but recently switched to net with plans to pay tithing on our retirement and social security as we use it. I am at peace with the decision after stewing about it. It's difficult to pay 10 percent on something that you only see 50 percent of. We pay tithing on the money we "see" and I quit thinking about it. I have a feeling that if more people would think that way, more tithing would be paid. So many 'older generation" have been guilted into having to pay tithing on gross and if you don't pay on gross, you might as well not pay at all. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2017 Author Posted January 2, 2017 40 minutes ago, Teancum said: I don't view tithing as an investment. But I do view charitable giving as something to take seriously and like to understand where and how the money is used by the organizations I give to. I was giving to one organization before I did some research on them. When I found little $ went to the intended purpose I stopped giving. I don't consider tithing charity either. I don't claim it back on my taxes. How it is used is not part of the commandment for the giver. Abraham paid tithes to his priesthood head, Melchizedek (Shem). We have no idea what that money was used for. D&C 119 where we get our modern day instruction to tithe names "for the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church" as perfectly acceptable uses of surplus and tithing donations. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 lists both helping the poor AND the priests as uses for tithing. Tithing is a commandment to give God through his representatives a percent of your property. That's it, that's all. We either keep the commandment or we don't.
mnn727 Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 12/31/2016 at 5:03 PM, Tacenda said: I use to pay on gross, then turned to net and paid on our tax return each year. Now, I believe everyone should just pay on increase like was set up in the beginning. The church wastes a lot of your tithing money, IMO. Maybe if they only got increase they'd be more careful and live a lot simply. They tell us to simplify. But they don't. They spend like there is no tomorrow, IMO. I'd like to see them streamline and take care of the needy, none of this gawdy stuff. Been reading the anti-sites again? Please show the waste.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The information I provided (already available from the LDS Church) falsifies your initial claim that they do not provide such data. It is correct to say that the LDS Church does not submit to the sort of independent audit which is normal for say the Billy Graham Evangelistsic Association (BGEA), and I consider that unfortunate. I don't think they have anything to hide, and would like to see a publicly available annual audit. I think you knew what I meant. I easily could have added they do give some detail of welfare aid they have given as well as the fact that in some countries like the UK and Canada they do public financial statements because the law requires it. I thought I was pretty clear I was referring to fully disclosed financial statements. I am happy to know that you agree that it would be a good thing for the Church to submit an independently audited financial statement to the public. I don't think they have anything to hide either and have never said they do. 1
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