Original Sin. What does it mean to you?

[theplains]

By original sin, I usually use the term "first sin."  I would agree with the 2008 Ensign 
Magazine (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng).

"These include His ransom for Adam’s original transgression so that no member of the human 
family is held responsible for that sin."

"For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve from Adam’s 
sin through no effort of their own, they are not given a reprieve from their own sins ..."

This is repeated several times in other LDS teachings.  See attached.

If you disagree with these teachings, why?

Thanks,
Jim

lds_sin_of_adam.pdf

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, theplains said:

By original sin, I usually use the term "first sin."

Only one of these is a Ben & Jerry's flavor.

[LittleNipper]

The original sin stemmed  from both Adam and Eve coming to the deceived conclusion that God was withholding knowledge that they were entitled to.

[waveslider]

It was only Eve who was deceived, Adam did it in order to be able to still be with Eve after she got kicked out of Eden, so they could at least still obey the command to multiply and replenish the Earth.

 

[Glenn101]

21 minutes ago, waveslider said:

It was only Eve who was deceived, Adam did it in order to be able to still be with Eve after she got kicked out of Eden, so they could at least still obey the command to multiply and replenish the Earth.

 

Then again, maybe Eve understood more than we have been told and wanted to take the next step. There is a lot that we have not been told in the Biblical version (or any other, for that matter).

Glenn

[Abulafia]

As I understand it, original sin is an Augustinian creation.  (300s)  It's interesting to note how Jewish belief deals with the concept.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

 

 

Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. The basis of his belief is from the Bible (Genesis 3:17-19) where Adam is described as having disobeyed G-d by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. This, the first sin of man, became known as original sin.

Many Christians today, particularly members of the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches, subscribe to this belief. They maintain that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations, tainting even the unborn. Substantiation for this view is found in the New Testament (Romans 5:12) where Paul says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man's disobediance many were made sinners."

Christianity believes that only through the acceptance of Jesus that the "grace" of G-d can return to man. A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her.

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudictimes who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

 

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

Then again, maybe Eve understood more than we have been told and wanted to take the next step. There is a lot that we have not been told in the Biblical version (or any other, for that matter).

Glenn

Perhaps Eve did, but I was just replying to what LittleNipper said. I just forgot to click on the quote part before I wrote it. I don't think Adam was deceived, since it was through Eve that Adam partook of the fruit.

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The original sin stemmed  from both Adam and Eve coming to the deceived conclusion that God was withholding knowledge that they were entitled to.

 

[JLHPROF]

Since it's not a scriptural term, it means very little to me.
Adam transgressed.  Meaning, crossed over, stepped across, violated a barrier.

I don't consider it a sin (as in going against God's will).  Scripture usually calls it transgression for a reason.
The so-called original sin was to fulfill God's first command to multiply and replenish the earth.  That required mortal bodies which required the fall.

It was the plan all along.  Hardly a wicked act.

 

[Five Solas]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

...

The so-called original sin was to fulfill God's first command to multiply and replenish the earth.  That required mortal bodies which required the fall.

It was the plan all along.  Hardly a wicked act.
 

Why do you think that, JLHPROF?  Consider, in Genesis 3:16 God declares the consequence of disobedience for Eve--

I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth
In pain you will bring forth children

This suggests the exact opposite of what you espouse: Prior to The Fall there would have been a much more pleasant, comfortable way for Eve (and her descendants) to give birth to children.  The before & after difference of which God speaks is not the act of childbearing itself, the difference is childbearing in pain.   

--Erik

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Why do you think that, JLHPROF?  Consider, in Genesis 3:16 God declares the consequence of disobedience for Eve--

I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth
In pain you will bring forth children

This suggests the exact opposite of what you espouse: Prior to The Fall there would have been a much more pleasant, comfortable way for Eve (and her descendants) to give birth to children.  The before & after difference of which God speaks is not the act of childbearing itself, the difference is childbearing in pain.   

--Erik

Perhaps the place Adam and Eve came from there was not so much pain in childbirth there.

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

[Jeanne]

The whole thing is kind of like a sad story.  There is no sin if it was planned to be that way....and what's more..it is no all Eve...the whole thing is just a story to me.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well I'm happy they sinned, so we could be born with bodies of flesh and bone.

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, waveslider said:

Perhaps Eve did, but I was just replying to what LittleNipper said. I just forgot to click on the quote part before I wrote it. I don't think Adam was deceived, since it was through Eve that Adam partook of the fruit.

 

10-4.

 

[Thinking]

 

[Glenn101]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Why do you think that, JLHPROF?  Consider, in Genesis 3:16 God declares the consequence of disobedience for Eve--

I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth
In pain you will bring forth children

This suggests the exact opposite of what you espouse: Prior to The Fall there would have been a much more pleasant, comfortable way for Eve (and her descendants) to give birth to children.  The before & after difference of which God speaks is not the act of childbearing itself, the difference is childbearing in pain.   

--Erik

Then, again, they were in a completely innocent state, not knowing good from evil. They did not even know they were naked. Would they ever have had children under such circumstances? Carnal attraction did not seem to exist before they partook of the fruit.

Can a person sin in the eyes of God if they do not have the ability to understand right from wrong? Take for instance a developmentally retarded person, like my son. He is forever five years old. He does not really know and understand right from wrong. He knows only that there are things that adults disapprove of, but he does not understand why. Can he actually sin in the eyes of God?

Those questions are not answered anywhere in the Bible that I can find, but are answered by scriptures that you do not accept.

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Why do you think that, JLHPROF?  Consider, in Genesis 3:16 God declares the consequence of disobedience for Eve--

I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth
In pain you will bring forth children

This suggests the exact opposite of what you espouse: Prior to The Fall there would have been a much more pleasant, comfortable way for Eve (and her descendants) to give birth to children.  The before & after difference of which God speaks is not the act of childbearing itself, the difference is childbearing in pain.   

--Erik

Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

That's why I think that.  Eve said it was the case that they would never have fulfilled God's command to multiply which would have thwarted his work if they had not fallen. Additionally the premortal choosing of a Savior to redeem us from the fall indicates the fall was the plan all along.  Unless the atonement was a back up plan just in case the fall occurred and Christ wasn't supposed to be needed.

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Since it's not a scriptural term, it means very little to me.
Adam transgressed.  Meaning, crossed over, stepped across, violated a barrier.

I don't consider it a sin (as in going against God's will).  Scripture usually calls it transgression for a reason.
The so-called original sin was to fulfill God's first command to multiply and replenish the earth.  That required mortal bodies which required the fall.

It was the plan all along.  Hardly a wicked act.

 

 if so, then you are saying that the father has a mortal body in order to procreate with Mary if I understand your Interpretation of Brigham Young's words.

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 if so, then you are saying that the father has a mortal body in order to procreate with Mary if I understand your Interpretation of Brigham Young's words.

Not mortal, but physical.
And a physical body is gained during mortality, showing that the Father was once mortal.

[Bobbieaware]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

By original sin, I usually use the term "first sin."  I would agree with the 2008 Ensign 
Magazine (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng).

"These include His ransom for Adam’s original transgression so that no member of the human 
family is held responsible for that sin."

"For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve from Adam’s 
sin through no effort of their own, they are not given a reprieve from their own sins ..."

This is repeated several times in other LDS teachings.  See attached.

If you disagree with these teachings, why?

Thanks,
Jim

lds_sin_of_adam.pdf

One of the elements of the doctrine of original sin (chapter 6 of the LDS Book of Moses calls it "original guilt") that appears to be somewhat overlooked by some members of the LDS Church is that while it is taught in the Church that Christ did indeed atone for the original guilt of our first parents -- and by that atonement the children cannot be held liable for the sins of their fathers -- nevertheless, the most serious and eternal consequences of the transgression in Eden (physical and spiritual death) ARE passed down to the descendants of Adam and Eve. Just as an alcoholic might repent and successfully turn away from the consumption of alcoholic beverages for the remainder of his life, that successful transition to sobriety often cannot cancel out the deleterious physical consequences (often cirrhosis of the liver) the excessive and continuous consumption of alcohol has wrought upon his body. Similarly, it's well-established LDS doctrine that the transgression in Eden brought dire consequences upon the world in spite of the remission of sins given to Adam and Eve. In fact, the consequences of the transgression in Eden are of such dire consequence that without the infinite and eternal suffering sacrifice of the Son of God every one of us, without exception, even including Adam and Eve, would end up in hell with the devil and his angels. So while our first parents were forgiven by the Lord for their transgression in Eden, the most serious eternal consequences of the transgression remained. Here's how the Book of Mormon prophet Alma puts it...

 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state. (Alma:42)

So in the eternal wisdom of God, the consequences of the fall came upon each of us that our faith and faithfulness could be tried in the refining fire of great adversity.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

Perhaps you could share where in the bible original sin is taught, so that we can all discuss the same reference.

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The original sin stemmed  from both Adam and Eve coming to the deceived conclusion that God was withholding knowledge that they were entitled to.

 

19 hours ago, waveslider said:

It was only Eve who was deceived, Adam did it in order to be able to still be with Eve after she got kicked out of Eden, so they could at least still obey the command to multiply and replenish the Earth.

Eve was the smartest of the two, and she certainly recalled that God specifically gave her and her partner free choice to decide the issue on their own.  She realized that without knowledge, she and Adam's destiny could not be realized (multiply & replenish, etc.).  And, yes, Adam knew that he had no choice but to follow her.  More importantly, she and Adam followed the script of the ritual which had to take place, as it has on all worlds created for that purpose.  The Garden Story is a temple story, and the events depicted are not historical narrative, but temple ritual.  On that see Tom Wright (former Anglican Bishop of Durham):  https://churchmousec.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/n-t-tom-wright-on-genesis-and-adam/ .

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Garden Story is a temple story, and the events depicted are not historical narrative, but temple ritual. 

SO true!
When we read the creation in Genesis/Moses we are not reading a history.  We are reading Moses' account of his temple endowment. 
When we read the creation in Abraham we are not reading a history.  We are reading Abraham's account of his temple endowment.

Now, depending on how accurately those accounts record the visions they describe, we CAN consider them histories too.  But there is no contemporary history of the creation.  Just visions of the creation, not all that different from the endowment.  Personally I think Joseph Smith received his endowment like Moses and Abraham did, and was tasked with recreating the ordinance.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

By original sin, I usually use the term "first sin."  I would agree with the 2008 Ensign 
Magazine (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng).

"These include His ransom for Adam’s original transgression so that no member of the human 
family is held responsible for that sin."

"For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve from Adam’s 
sin through no effort of their own, they are not given a reprieve from their own sins ..."

This is repeated several times in other LDS teachings.  See attached.

If you disagree with these teachings, why?

Thanks,
Jim

lds_sin_of_adam.pdf

The official doctrine is part of the LDS Canon:  Articles of Faith #2, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." One must add that children are born innocent and cannot be held accountable for their own sins until the age of accountability, which is 8 years of age for Mormons, and 12 for Jews -- who share the same approach.  The doctrine of original sin incorporates the belief that even newborns are tainted with it, which is absurd and false.

[RevTestament]

I believe this story of the Garden of Eden represents our premortal decision to come to Earth, and  be tried. Eve's decision to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was a premeditated choice and is akin to the choice we all made to come to this earth, and be tried.

[Jeanne]

If this is not literal...and part of a Temple ritual or whatever...please tell those folks and kids that this...is just a story.  Duh!!  How many times have I felt like a dink or less than because Eve took a bite out of an apple!!

Edited to add:...This story takes some of the joy of birth away...because at the same time of delivery and the process thereof...I am thinking..this is my punishment Eve...thank you.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Jeanne