Original Sin. What does it mean to you?

[Glenn101]

On 1/12/2017 at 5:55 PM, pogi said:

 

Pogi, Thanks for an interesting discussion. I am going to let you have the last word in our little exchange. I would feel more comfortable adopting some of your views on the subject had we received more information concerning God's intentions for Adam and Eve rather than having to infer things from later revelations in order to explain away the little that we have received on the state of Adam and Eve by Lehi and Moses. One thing that we both can be assred of is that no matter which way it happened, Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to overcome the effects of that fall.

Glenn

[theplains]

On 11/01/2017 at 7:44 PM, Bobbieaware said:

So God knew it was going to happen and for some strange reason let it happen (like he was powerless to create beings whom he foreknew wouldn't disobey). Or is it that the only kind of beings he could create are of the type that would unavoidably disobey?

God allow us to chose for ourselves. Likewise (if you are a parent), you procreated a son or daughter whom you
knew would disobey you.

Jim

[theplains]

On 11/01/2017 at 8:01 PM, Bobbieaware said:

The point you seem to be missing is that the atonement of Christ counteracts the curse of the fall and makes blessings possible that ...

I understand your point but only the LDS Church says great blessings resulted from the Fall.  Namely, mortality (a first
step in progression towards godhood) and procreation.

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

God allow us to chose for ourselves. Likewise (if you are a parent), you procreated a son or daughter whom you
knew would disobey you.

Mormonism has explanation for this principle you state.

Is the explanation the same for more traditional Christians?  You asked me previously about the usage of the phrase "probationary state".
That explains the need for agency/choosing.   Do you believe this to be a probationary state as well?

Quote

I understand your point but only the LDS Church says great blessings resulted from the Fall.  Namely, mortality (a first
step in progression towards godhood) and procreation.

As above, what purpose in the ability to choose?  What blessings from being in this fallen state and then choosing to return to God?

Edited January 14, 2017 by JLHPROF

[theplains]

On 11/01/2017 at 8:19 PM, JLHPROF said:

So if the atonement was the great blessing and the fall was the great curse does that mean if Adam and Eve hadn't been "deceived" by the devil that there would be no need for Christ?
What does that signify to the standard Christian belief of Christ as God incarnate?

Jesus has always been God, even before his life on earth.  I believe the fall caused the need for the atonement. God
did not require or ordain Adam and Eve to disobey him.

Jim

[theplains]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Mormonism has explanation for this principle you state.

Is the explanation the same for more traditional Christians?  You asked me previously about the usage of the phrase "probationary state".
That explains the need for agency/choosing.   Do you believe this to be a probationary state as well?

As above, what purpose in the ability to choose?  What blessings from being in this fallen state and then choosing to return to God?

I believe that this life is the time to prepare to meet God. There is no chance for making a choice after death. These
parts of the Book of Mormon I can agree with (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 2:30; 9:27).  The LDS
Church teaching that people can accept the gospel after they die gives Hindus false hope that they can reject the 
gospel in this life and accept it in the afterlife when they realize their key Hindu beliefs were false.

Please clarify your other questions. I did not understand.

Thanks,
Jim
 

[pogi]

12 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Pogi, Thanks for an interesting discussion. I am going to let you have the last word in our little exchange. I would feel more comfortable adopting some of your views on the subject had we received more information concerning God's intentions for Adam and Eve rather than having to infer things from later revelations in order to explain away the little that we have received on the state of Adam and Eve by Lehi and Moses. One thing that we both can be assred of is that no matter which way it happened, Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to overcome the effects of that fall.

Glenn

Thanks for engaging me Glenn.  It has been interesting to see other peoples perspectives on this theory.  The important thing, as you mentioned, is that we can agree on the essential elements of the story.  The plan of salvation remains untouched.  I don't really expect anyone to change their mind about this.  I recognize that this is a fairly radical departure from traditional Mormonism, but I don't personally view that as a problem.  There is still so much that we don't know, and I don't doubt that we will all someday be very surprised at just how little we really understood in this life, and just how much our traditions obscure the clarity of the BIG PICTURE.  

Joseph Smith once said:

Quote

I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. 

And this:

Quote

Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?

I don't claim to be right about my theory, but I do think it is worth considering.  Even as a child, the contradictions were evident to me in the traditional telling of the story.  I was never comfortable with it, and never have been.  It has always felt to me like something was missing. 

Anyways, thanks again Glenn!

Edited January 14, 2017 by pogi

[Vance]

On 1/14/2017 at 11:28 AM, theplains said:

Jesus has always been God, even before his life on earth.  I believe the fall caused the need for the atonement. God
did not require or ordain Adam and Eve to disobey him.

Jim

If it wasn't part of the plan then why was Christ foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the blood sacrifice, "the lamb without blemish" as it were?

Edited January 16, 2017 by Vance

[Five Solas]

On 12/29/2016 at 5:12 PM, Okrahomer said:

From John Piper:

"Second, the guilt of Adam's sin is credited not just to Adam himself, but to us all. We are regarded as having sinned in Adam,and hence as deserving of the same punishment. This is imputed sin. Thus, we not only receive polluted and sinful natures because of Adam's sin (original sin), but we are also regarded as having sinned in Adam such that we are guilty of his act as well (imputed sin). Imputed sin is the ruin of our standing before God and is thus not an internal quality but an objective reckoning of guilt, whereas original sin is the ruin of our character and thus is a reference to internal qualities. Both original sin and imputed sin place us under the judgment of God."

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-original-sin-and-imputed-sin

Finally getting a chance to get back to this.  And here I simply have to concede the point:  In light of the doctrine of "Imputed Sin"--the LDS Second Article of Faith is a reasonable representation of some Christians' views (that men are punished "for Adam's transgression").  I was wrong to have called it a straw man.  

I will add it's not a doctrine widely taught.  But figures if someone were teaching it, that someone would be John Piper. 

:0) 

--Erik 

PS.  And much as I appreciate his writings (and the couple of times I've seen him preach)--afraid I'm not wholly persuaded on this one...