Original Sin. What does it mean to you?

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

If you get a second look up the writings of George Macdonald, he was a major influence on C.S. Lewis and wrote some beautiful fiction and nonfiction.

Love Sir Gibbie!

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

If you get a second look up the writings of George Macdonald, he was a major influence on C.S. Lewis and wrote some beautiful fiction and nonfiction.

I've just downloaded Phantastes and have already followed wiith the young man the path into the forest and am wondering what is going on with the ash.  Delightful!  Thank you for the tip!

[boblloyd91]

10 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

I've just downloaded Phantastes and have already followed wiith the young man the path into the forest and am wondering what is going on with the ash.  Delightful!  Thank you for the tip!

That book is great! Afterwards read Lilith, then unspoken sermons, great stuff!

[pogi]

On 12/31/2016 at 5:39 PM, Glenn101 said:

Okay, what way was being prepared for them to keep both commandments? Was the Atonement a backup plan?

They were being prepared to partake of the fruit, whereby they could fulfill both commands.  There was nothing inherent in the fruit which brings death.  Sin does that.  They were human and would have fallen eventually, just as we all do.  There was no need for God to contradict himself.  My theory does not negate the need for a fall and an atonement, and does no harm to the plan of salvation in the least.  I think it clarifies it actually.

On 12/31/2016 at 5:39 PM, Glenn101 said:

Now, I also ask, what would have been the moral equivalent of God telling Adam to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and thus bring death and sin into the world?

Your perception of the tree as a poison which brings death and sin in the world will distort my answer to your question.  The tree only brought death and sin into the world through disobedience and was not inherently evil, wrong, bad, poisonous, or corrupt.  Quite the contrary.  The moral equivalence and symbology of God offering Adam the fruit is simply this: It symbolizes God offering us knowledge of good through obedience, patience, and faith vs. Lucifer offering us knowledge of evil through disobedience.   

One of the biggest problems that I have with popular perception is that it entirely distorts the beautiful and obvious symbology inherent in the tree.  Let me explain the symbology and share what I see in the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is one of the oldest stories presented in Christian writing.  It makes its appearance in the very heart of where it all began - the Garden of Eden.  Everybody knows of the tree, yet so little is known about it.   There is very little written about this tree, in both ancient and modern times. 

The tree of knowledge, for me, has always evoked unsettling and contrasting emotions, as is inherent in its name.  I’ve never really known quite how to feel about it and have struggled to understand its nature.  In the scriptural world of black and white, light and dark, good and bad, right and wrong, it is difficult to classify this tree.  It has always seemed to embrace both the light and the dark - the Christian yin and yang.  In my mind, it was not necessarily good, yet it was not necessarily evil either - it somehow was both.   It was the only entity in scripture that harmoniously embodied the qualities of good and evil, light and dark, right and wrong in its nature.  Partaking of the fruit was the only action that has ever been seemingly both right and wrong in the eyes of God, or at least according to popular interpretation.  The partaking of it was a direct transgression of God’s law and yet the fulfillment of His will at the same time, and was therefore both good and bad.  It brought both light and darkness into the heart and life of man.

Though the tree seems to embody both good and evil, this misunderstood tree seems to have tipped on the scale of evil in the perceptions of most Christians, it has fallen into the annals of history as the source of death, corruption, and evil.  It is connected with sin, death, and forbidden temptation, and therefore it is often perceived as a poisonous corruption standing in opposition to God.   To make such a conclusion however is misguided. Once you understand its significance and symbolism, you will see clearly that such a judgment is a gross mistake.  

This tree was of central importance to everything.  It was the only way back to the Father, and was planted by the very hand of God himself who proclaimed that it was not only good, but “very good”.  The scriptures state, “God saw every thing that he had made, and behold it was very good (Genesis 1:31).” It was so good and of such significance that it was planted by God in the very center of the most sacred garden near the most sacred tree of life.  This central placement was symbolic in its central role in the plan of salvation.  It was the only way back to the Father, and the only way to know Him and his goodness.  The tree of life brought immortality, but without the tree of knowledge, eternal life evaded Adam and Eve.  The tree of life was the key to immortality, but the tree of knowledge was the key to eternal life - to know God (John 17:3).  “O taste and see that the Lord is good…(Psalms 34:8)”

Nourishment strengthened Adam as he partook of the tree of life.  The sustaining flesh and juice filled his soul like a sacrament, giving him life, for so is the love of God.  “…and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God” (1 Nephi 11:25).

Though they partook of God’s love, they were not and could not be intimately and thoroughly acquainted with its goodness, which brings “unspeakable joy”.   Though they were surrounded by God’s love, they knew not the emotional comfort of its embrace.  Though they were filled with His love, they were not satiated; nor could they be.  

The love of God (tree of life) cannot save us alone. Without the tree of knowledge, we cannot know the love of the Father.  Christ, very symbolically opened the eyes of the blind.  Like the tree of knowledge, Christ is the only way back to the Father, as he proclaimed: “No man cometh unto the Father but by me”.  The fruit of knowledge of good and evil is, and was, the only way to know the fruit of the tree of life, or the love of God, which enters through our spiritual eyes and penetrates our hearts.  It was the original eye opener.  

Ask yourself these questions:  Who is it that is the central part of the plan of salvation?  Who is it that has power over life and death, both physically and spiritually?  Who is it that bestows upon us the knowledge of both good and evil?  In the Salt Lake temple, the tree of knowledge is depicted in a beautiful mural on the right hand of the tree of life.  Who then was the only other being in the garden that stood, even on the right hand of God?  Through whose fruit do we become even as God to know good and evil?  When we think of the light or spirit of Christ, the association I think becomes obvious:  “For behold, the spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil…” (Moroni 7:16). 

Christ comprehended the darkest abyss and the depths of evil itself as he bent over in pain and bled drops of blood from every pore.  Who could have a better knowledge of evil than he who took all evil upon himself as he partook of that bitter cup? On the other hand, who could have a better knowledge of good than he who was raised up and placed on the right hand of goodness himself, to become one with the source of all good - even God?  Is it any wonder than that the light of him who has tasted the furthest extremes of both the bitter and the sweet is represented in the fruit by which man gained a knowledge of both good and evil - the conscience of man?  

Could such a good fruit of the Savior (the key to eternal life) be poisonous except through disobedience?  It was forbidden not because it was bad, but because it was good and they were unprepared.  Like the beautiful, necessary, and precious gift of sex, Satan highjacked this intended gift and perverted it into a thing of darkness and poison.  It became poisonous and darkness through disobedience, unpreparedness, instant gratification, and carnal desire. They were deceived indeed. 

“He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things [knowledge of good and evil], that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; which truth shineth.  This is the light of Christ.” (D&C 88:6-7)

The hands that fed Eve the fruit were not the hands of him to whom the fruit belonged, the hands of whom planted it in the garden, the hands that later proved ownership by the prints on the wrists and palms, which caused Christ to know all good and all evil. 

In a very powerful symbolic display, Christ “hung on a tree (Gal 3:13).” The Greek word used for “tree” in this passage is the same word that is used for the tree of knowledge in the Septuagint, different from the usual New Testament word for tree.

The two trees in the garden represented the two heavenly beings that walked in their midst, even God and his love and Christ and his light. 

The tree undoubtedly represents the light of Christ, a gift from God, the conscience of man, which gives us to know good and light through obedience as offered by the hand of God, or to know evil and darkness through disobedience as offered by the hand of Lucifer. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 One day I expect to laugh about all this with you and the rest of my brothers and sisters. 

Why wait? 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The tree undoubtedly represents the light of Christ, a gift from God, the conscience of man, which gives us to know good and light through obedience as offered by the hand of God, or to know evil and darkness through disobedience as offered by the hand of Lucifer. 

Pogi, thanks for laying out your thoughts an beliefs on this point. I would only be repeating myself to continue further. I just do not find any scriptural evidence that concurs with your position. It has been an interesting and though provoking conversation.

Glenn

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Pogi, thanks for laying out your thoughts an beliefs on this point. I would only be repeating myself to continue further. I just do not find any scriptural evidence that concurs with your position. It has been an interesting and though provoking conversation.

Glenn

Thanks Glen for engaging me.  I have enjoyed our discussion. The tree of knowledge is a topic of keen interest for me over the last couple years.  My theory was inspired by scripture study and meditative prayer.  I have tons of other supporting scriptural evidence that I will not get into here about Satan and his role and reason for giving the fruit.  If you disagree with my interpretation of scripture that is fine, but to say that my theory has no scriptural evidence is not really accurate.

There are only 2 scriptures that I have found in all of my studies which may cause difficulty for my theory.  They are the ones that you have mentioned.  I have offered a possible explanation and interpretation for those passages.  If you disagree with my interpretation, I understand.  What I don’t understand however is how anyone could possibly disagree with my interpretation of supporting scriptures for my theory which I will list below.  Most of these passages cause serious difficulty for your theory which no one has even attempted to explain throughout this thread, as I have already mentioned most of these:

God planted the tree - Moses 3:9

The tree was deemed “very good” by God himself. - Genesis 1:31  

The fruit was actually sweet and delicious tasting according to Eve.  The bitterness was only symbolic of the consequences of disobedience of eating the fruit before the time - death. 

The following are passages which support my theory in that the fruit was intended as a gift from God predicated upon obedience, and represents the light of Christ which opens our eyes to know good from evil:

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The Spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil (Moroni 7:16)

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Knowledge is a precious gift (Prov. 8:10; Hos. 6:6; Prov. 1:7; Prov. 9:10; Col. 2:3; Prov. 14:18).

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He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things [knowledge of good & evil]…Behold here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.” (D&C 93: 28,31-32)

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And the light which shineth…is through him who enlighteneth your eyes and quickened your understanding D&C 88:11

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By the power of the Spirit our eyes are opened and our understanding quickened - D&C 76:12 and D&C 138:29

Numerous other scriptures testify that it is Christ who opens the eyes of the blind, both physically and spiritually speaking.

The command to not partake of the fruit was based on spiritual and moral law and not natural law:

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For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

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Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.  Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual (D&C 29: 34-35).

Sin is the cause of death and not some poisonous fruit:

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For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23)

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Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death (James 1:15)

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For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

A way is always provided to obey God’s command:

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“I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commanded them” (1 Nephi 3:7). 

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“Stop, and stand still until I command thee, and I will provide means whereby thou mayest accomplish the thing which I have commanded thee” (D&C 5:34). 

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…but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

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He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things [knowledge of good and evil] (D&C 93:28).

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by pogi

[theplains]

On 29/12/2016 at 5:55 PM, JLHPROF said:

The same way we did.
Being born into mortality on a previous earth.

Do you believe the god you worship was a sinner?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 30/12/2016 at 9:31 AM, CV75 said:

King Benjamin said it best: “And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.”

What do you believe Adam's first sin was?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the god you worship was a sinner?

Thanks,
Jim

Possibly.  Depends on whether he was the sinless perfect Savior of his earth or not.
If he wasn't then his sins were paid for by his Savior, just as our are.

[Glenn101]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

God planted the tree - Moses 3:9

The tree was deemed “very good” by God himself. - Genesis 1:31  

The fruit was actually sweet and delicious tasting according to Eve.  The bitterness was only symbolic of the consequences of disobedience of eating the fruit before the time - death. 

The following are passages which support my theory in that the fruit was intended as a gift from God predicated upon obedience, and represents the light of Christ which opens our eyes to know good from evil:

Numerous other scriptures testify that it is Christ who opens the eyes of the blind, both physically and spiritually speaking.

The command to not partake of the fruit was based on spiritual and moral law and not natural law:

Sin is the cause of death and not some poisonous fruit:

A way is always provided to obey God’s command:

 

 

Pogi, you have raised some points which I believe need to be addressed. All of the quotes that you made apply after the fall. Take the light of Christ for instance. It is clear from the scriptures that Adam and Eve had not received the Light of Christ because they did not know good from evil. In fact I believe that it was imperative that they did not receive that knowledge while they were unmortal else they could heave sinned and not died.It seems to me that knowledge of good and evil and mortality had to come simultaneously, or at least mortality would have had to come first. Can you show me a scripture that shows how they could have become mortal without eating of that fruit? The Light of Christ may be the influence by which people can know right from wrong, but there are those who cannot comprehend it, such as my son. He is not capable of comprehending it. That appears to be the state in which Adam and Eve were i the Garden of Eden. I think that we have already agreed that they did not sin, even though God told them "I forbid it" he also told them, "you may choose for yourself."

It is my belief that God could not just have made Adam and Eve mortal and given them the knowledge of good and evil. He would have been, in essence, the one ushering in death and sin. It had to be a choice made by Adam and Eve. He had to tell them "I forbid it" but leave the choice up to them. If it were not necessary, there is no reason for Him to have put that tree and its fruit there.

Glenn

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Pogi, you have raised some points which I believe need to be addressed. All of the quotes that you made apply after the fall.

I don’t know how you can claim this. Many of these specifically mention Adam’s name, or are in reference to God planting the tree and calling it “very good”.  Other’s are eternal truths such as the light of Christ being the knowledge of good and evil, and that our eyes are opened through the spirit of Christ.  They reference other eternal truths like spiritual/temporal death being the result of transgression, and that God does not give command without providing a way to obey.  How do these not apply to Adam?  Many are in direct reference to him and the cause of the fall.  

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Take the light of Christ for instance. It is clear from the scriptures that Adam and Eve had not received the Light of Christ because they did not know good from evil. 

Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough.  I am not claiming that Adam had the light of Christ prior to eating the fruit.  My claim is that the fruit represents the light of Christ.  How can this possibly be disputed when it is in the name of the tree and was indeed the fruit of the tree?  The scriptures I listed show that it would have been given them through obedience, and that it was intended as a gift.

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In fact I believe that it was imperative that they did not receive that knowledge while they were unmortal else they could heave sinned and not died.

What scripture do you base this idea on?  Why would sin not bring death as the scriptures state?  To assume that they could have sinned and not died contradicts scripture and the justice of God.  This idea that it was a poisonous fruit, and not transgression, which corrupted immortality is not supported by scripture.  The cause and source of immortality was innocence, which gave them access to the tree of life, which gave them immortality.   Death came by means of being cut off from the tree of life (presence of God) through transgression of moral/spiritual law. 

Transgression brought temporal and physical death by means of being cut off from the presence of God.  And though it was only a transgression, it required repentance for the atonement to take effect:

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3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

(Alma 42: 3-7).

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Can you show me a scripture that shows how they could have become mortal without eating of that fruit?

I have already provided abundant evidence regarding the cause of death in the world which is transgression to spiritual/moral law cuts us off from the presence of God (tree of life) which leads to both spiritual and physical death.  (See Alma 42 above; see also James 1:15, Romans 6:23, and Romans 7:11-16)

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It is my belief that God could not just have made Adam and Eve mortal and given them the knowledge of good and evil. 

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came by means of the fruit, which is the spirit of Christ.
  
As far as mortality goes, I agree God would not make Adam mortal without cause or transgression.  Remember, God promised them further instruction.  I believe that had they been faithful, God would have taught them the gospel of Jesus Christ in preparation to, or directly after, offering them the fruit.  Transgression/death did not need to come by means of the fruit, but by means of transgression. Any transgression would suffice.  There was nothing inherently corrupt or lethal about the fruit, on the contrary it was "very good" and represents the light of Christ.   Adam and Eve were human and Lucifer provided opposition.  God didn't need to contradict himself and force a fall, the opposition was present in Satan.  They could have fallen any number of ways.  Any transgression would have brought expulsion from the presence of God (tree of life) bringing spiritual/physical death.

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He would have been, in essence, the one ushering in death and sin. 

Actually, it is my theory where obedience is even a choice.  Without that option, is true agency even possible?  Could they truly choose disobedience for themselves if obedience was not an option? Or, was it a forced fall where they are forced to choose disobedience/transgression one way or the other?  So, what you say is kind of ironic because it is your theory where God ushers in disobedience/transgression/death/sin.  Your theory is rigged for disobedience one way or the other. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by pogi

[Glenn101]

18 hours ago, pogi said:

What scripture do you base this idea on?  Why would sin not bring death as the scriptures state?  To assume that they could have sinned and not died contradicts scripture and the justice of God.  This idea that it was a poisonous fruit, and not transgression, which corrupted immortality is not supported by scripture.  The cause and source of immortality was innocence, which gave them access to the tree of life, which gave them immortality.   Death came by means of being cut off from the tree of life (presence of God) through transgression of moral/spiritual law. 

Transgression brought temporal and physical death by means of being cut off from the presence of God.  And though it was only a transgression, it required repentance for the atonement to take effect:

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18 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that knowledge of good and evil came by means of the fruit, which is the spirit of Christ.
  
As far as mortality goes, I agree God would not make Adam mortal without cause or transgression.  Remember, God promised them further instruction.  I believe that had they been faithful, God would have taught them the gospel of Jesus Christ in preparation to, or directly after, offering them the fruit.  Transgression/death did not need to come by means of the fruit, but by means of transgression. Any transgression would suffice.  There was nothing inherently corrupt or lethal about the fruit, on the contrary it was "very good" and represents the light of Christ.   Adam and Eve were human and Lucifer provided opposition.  God didn't need to contradict himself and force a fall, the opposition was present in Satan.  They could have fallen any number of ways.  Any transgression would have brought expulsion from the presence of God (tree of life) bringing spiritual/physical death.

Sin brings about a spiritual death. Partaking of the fruit by Adam and Eve was not a sin, as we have already agreed. They could not sin until they knew right from wrong according to all of the scriptures that I have read.

Now, as spirits in Heaven during the great War in Heaven, did Adam and Eve know right from wrong? Did all of us know right from wrong? The answer, I believe must be yes because if we did not know right from wrong there how Satan and his followers make a sinful choice that caused them to lose their place in Heaven?

Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with no recollection of their pre-existence nor with the ability to know right from wrong, much as my son is unable to comprehend it now, even though the Light of Christ is in this world. What was it then that caused Adam and Eve to become able to comprehend right and wrong? What was the impediment? Since Adam and Eve could not sin, what was it that caused the temporal death?

I believe that there was an actual Garden of Eden. I believe that there was an actual fruit. That so far is according to the scriptures. This next is just something that is my personal opinion. I believe that the fruit caused some type of actual physical cjange in Adam and Eve's bodies and brains that actually "opened their eyes" and also caused them to become mortal beings, not sin, because they could not sin, but the fruit itself. Once that happened, man became mortal and sin entered the world and they were cut off from the presence of God, and would have been so forever if not for the Atonement of Christ.

You said, in several places "Remember, God promised them further instruction" but I cannot find any reference to further instructions. Please point me to some references if you don't mind. Neither the account in Moses or Genesis talk about further instructions.

Thanks.

Glenn

[pogi]

19 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Sin brings about a spiritual death. Partaking of the fruit by Adam and Eve was not a sin, as we have already agreed. They could not sin until they knew right from wrong according to all of the scriptures that I have read.

Are you suggesting that spiritual death was an indirect consequence of the fall?  If that is your claim, than I am not the only one who is unorthodox in their beliefs here . The scriptures define spiritual death as separation from God, which was a direct consequence of Adam's transgression.  Re-read the verses in Alma 42 closely.  There are many others that I can reference if you would like.

It is true that sin is the cause of death.  However, it is clear that "sin" is loosely used in scripture to mean any transgression of God's law.  "Sin" and "transgression" are often used synonymously.  Adam's transgression is frequently referred to as "sin" in the scriptures, and they frequently reference those who have sinned ignorantly.  Spiritual and physical death are the consequence of transgression of God's law, be it performed in ignorance or not.  Without an atonement, transgression (or "ignorant sin") would lead to eternal spiritual and physical death.

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For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned (Mosiah 3:11)

See also:

Lev 4:13 and Num 15:27

Lets start with this and address the rest later.

Edited January 4, 2017 by pogi

[theplains]

On 03/01/2017 at 6:33 PM, Glenn101 said:

Sin brings about a spiritual death. Partaking of the fruit by Adam and Eve was not a sin, as we have already agreed. They could not sin until they knew right from wrong according to all of the scriptures that I have read.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Some gifts coming from the Atonement are universal, infinite, and unconditional. These include 
His ransom for Adam’s original transgression so that no member of the human family is held 
responsible for that sin.

Other aspects of Christ’s atoning gift are conditional. They depend on one’s diligence in keeping 
God’s commandments. For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve 
from Adam’s sin through no effort of their own.

Thanks,
Jim
 

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Some gifts coming from the Atonement are universal, infinite, and unconditional. These include 
His ransom for Adam’s original transgression so that no member of the human family is held 
responsible for that sin.

Other aspects of Christ’s atoning gift are conditional. They depend on one’s diligence in keeping 
God’s commandments. For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve 
from Adam’s sin through no effort of their own.

Thanks,
Jim
 

 

Elder Holland was using the words "sin" and "transgression" interchangeably in this address; however, LDS teaching has been consistent:  there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression" which is particularly relevant to the Fall of Adam:

"This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall. "

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng&_r=1

 

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Okrahomer

[theplains]

On 04/01/2017 at 8:19 PM, Okrahomer said:

 

Elder Holland was using the words "sin" and "transgression" interchangeably in this address; however, LDS teaching has been consistent:  there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression" which is particularly relevant to the Fall of Adam:

"This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall. "

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng&_r=1

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed 
upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

Jim

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, theplains said:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed 
upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

Jim

D&C 29:40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.

Paul is just as likely to be wrong as Joseph is.
No prophet is infallible.

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed 
upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

Jim

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

(Romans 5:14)

[Glenn101]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed 
upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

Jim

So, what does that quote mean? It is accurate, because of the transgression of Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil entered the world and thus he they and all posterity could knowingly (and did) sin.

Glenn

 

[Bobbieaware]

48 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

So, what does that quote mean? It is accurate, because of the transgression of Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil entered the world and thus he they and all posterity could knowingly (and did) sin.

Glenn

 

A couple things I have always wondered about are: 1) If partaking of the forbidden fruit was not really a deadly sin, why was the punishment for the transgression the worst punishment imaginable -- permanent physical death and permanent banishment from God's presence with the devil in hell (see 2 Nephi 9 for a full presentation of the punishment for the transgression of our first parents  in Eden). Remember, Christ had to suffer mightily in order to atone for the original guilt of the transgression in Eden. 2) I can actually see a scenario where we could be held personally responsible for our first parent's transgression in Eden that would fit well into the theology of the Restored Gospel. Could it be that in the pre-earth life we all chose Adam and Eve to represent us as the first inhabitants of the earth (just like they represent us in the temple) and that we knew they had to fall in order to make the plan of salvation and exaltation move forward. So I'm wondering if there was a vote in the council in heaven whereby we publicly manifested we agreed with the proposition that our first parents needed to fall and that by our yes vote we acknowledged WE WOULD DO THE VERY SAME THING OURSELVES IF WE WERE ONE OF THE ONES CHOSEN TO BE ONE OF THE TWO FIRST PARENTS. So under the perview of the law of justice we might very well be looked upon as sort of co-conspirators in initiating the fall, in very much the same way someone who plans a bank robbery, but sends others to carry out his plan, is just as guilty as the ones who actually do the physical work of robbing the bank. So in other words, because Adam and Eve did what we agreed we would also do if we were one of the ones called upon to initiate the fall, in the eyes of the law of justice we would be considered just as guilty as out first parents BECAUSE WE TOLD THEM TO DI IT.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Glenn101]

On 1/4/2017 at 1:59 PM, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that spiritual death was an indirect consequence of the fall?  If that is your claim, than I am not the only one who is unorthodox in their beliefs here . The scriptures define spiritual death as separation from God, which was a direct consequence of Adam's transgression.  Re-read the verses in Alma 42 closely.  There are many others that I can reference if you would like.

It is true that sin is the cause of death.  However, it is clear that "sin" is loosely used in scripture to mean any transgression of God's law.  "Sin" and "transgression" are often used synonymously.  Adam's transgression is frequently referred to as "sin" in the scriptures, and they frequently reference those who have sinned ignorantly.  Spiritual and physical death are the consequence of transgression of God's law, be it performed in ignorance or not.  Without an atonement, transgression (or "ignorant sin") would lead to eternal spiritual and physical death.

See also:

Lev 4:13 and Num 15:27

Lets start with this and address the rest later.

Spiritual death was a direct consequence of the fall. Adam and Eve by partaking of the fruit that had been forbidden they through some process, had their eyes immediately opened to the knowledge of right and wrong, and became mortal. Sin for all mortals except Jesus happened as a direct consequence.

As to transgression versus sin, the translators of the Old and New Testaments often used the words interchangeably and even today it is evident that many people view them the same. Also, there are many verses in the Bible, especially where sin and transgression are used in the same verse. It is not clear whether those verses equate those as being the same. And there are a couple of different Hebrew words that are translated as transgression.  Read Okrahomer's post on the subject though how LDS theology differentiates between the two.

As to those who sinned ignorantly, it seems to me that it is addressing those who would have been able to realize they were sinning had they known the they were breaking the law. It does seem that any transgression of God's law must be atoned for in some manner though. We are told that little children cannot sin until they become accountable to God. That is deemed to be  years of age as a rule, but some children may become accountable earlier in life. That is not my call. But we do know from the Doctrine and Covenants (29:46-47). Also Moroni chapter eight, affirms that little children cannot sin, nor people who live without the law. They are alive in Christ.

 

Glenn

[Glenn101]

34 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

A couple things I have always wondered about are: 1) If partaking of the forbidden fruit was not really a deadly sin, why was the punishment for the transgression the worst punishment imaginable -- permanent physical death and permanent banishment from God's presence with the devil in hell (see 2 Nephi 9 for a full presentation of the punishment for the transgression of our first parents  in Eden). Remember, Christ had to suffer mightily in order to atone for the original guilt of the transgression in Eden. 2) I can actually see a scenario where we could be held personally responsible for our first parent's transgression in Eden that would fit well into the theology of the Restored Gospel. Could it be that in the pre-earth life we all chose Adam and Eve to represent us as the first inhabitants of the earth (just like they represent us in the temple) and that we knew they had to fall in order to make the plan of salvation and exaltation move forward. So I'm wondering if there was a vote in the council in heaven whereby we publicly manifested we agreed with the proposition that our first parents needed to fall and that by our yes vote we acknowledged WE WOULD DO THE VERY SAME THING OURSELVES IF WE WERE ONE OF THE ONES CHOSEN TO BE ONE OF THE TWO FIRST PARENTS. So under the perview of the law of justice we might very well be looked upon as sort of co-conspirators in initiating the fall, in very much the same way someone who plans a bank robbery, but sends others to carry out his plan, is just as guilty as the ones who actually do the physical work of robbing the bank. So in other words, because Adam and Eve did what we agreed we would also do if we were one of the ones called upon to initiate the fall, in the eyes of the law of justice we would be considered just as guilty as out first parents BECAUSE WE TOLD THEM TO DI IT.

I don't see that in the scriptures. I have no idea exactly what was taught and transpired in that Grand Council, but I believe that Adam and Eve were chosen by God due to their own faithfulness and diligence in carrying out all of God's commands there, just as Christ was chosen to be our Savior because He was in perfect harmony with God the Father in the pre-existence. I do believe that the conversation and discussions were a bit more detailed and lengthy than are presented in Genesis and the Book of Moses, though. I believe that our votes were sustaining votes for those who were chosen and foreordained.

But I do not know the details. So, your guess is as good as mine.

Glenn

[Bobbieaware]

15 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I don't see that in the scriptures. I have no idea exactly what was taught and transpired in that Grand Council, but I believe that Adam and Eve were chosen by God due to their own faithfulness and diligence in carrying out all of God's commands there, just as Christ was chosen to be our Savior because He was in perfect harmony with God the Father in the pre-existence. I do believe that the conversation and discussions were a bit more detailed and lengthy than are presented in Genesis and the Book of Moses, though. I believe that our votes were sustaining votes for those who were chosen and foreordained.

But I do not know the details. So, your guess is as good as mine.

Glenn

In choosing God the Father's plan of salvation, we agreed that Adam and Eve should come to the earth, transgress and fall, so we were complicit.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

In choosing God the Father's plan of salvation, we agreed that Adam and Eve should come to the earth, transgress and fall, so we were complicit.

The mere fact that we (God) chose a Savior to redeem us from a fall that hadn't happened shows that not only were we complicit but it was supposed to happen.  God wanted the Fall.  So did we.

• Moses 4:1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
  2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
  3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
  4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
  5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.
  6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

So:
1. Prior to the fall plans were being made for redemption and a Savior was born.  The Fall had to be part of the plan of salvation.
2. When the fallen Satan sought to beguile Eve to disobey he "knew not the mind of God".  He thought he would destroy the world.  Instead he allowed for God's work to continue and allowed Adam and Eve to fulfill the first commandment God gave them to multiply and replenish the earth.