What if it's ALL true?

[SteveO]

43 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Four different people relating actual events in their own way. Happens all the time. Even in our "enlightened" times. Something actually occurs: it gets related by different people in different ways, but it doesn't mean the events didn't occur.

I'm beginning to think that there's a commonality among the critics: flawed assumptions and incorrect perceptions...it just floors me that you're having to explain this

[Atheist Mormon]

42 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Four different people relating actual events in their own way. Happens all the time. Even in our "enlightened" times. Something actually occurs: it gets related by different people in different ways, but it doesn't mean the events didn't occur.

Sure, if you accept the discrepancies anything goes.And Then God absolves from the responsibility of confusion with your permission. 

[strappinglad]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

This demonstrates incredible ignorance on the scientific method and how scientists approach their work.

You will note that I put ' lie ' in quotes. That is because I don't think most of the theories in science are complete and hence at some level are neither fully truth or fully lie. If you believe that the only way to truth is through the scientific method , then you ignore  the statements of scientists that reveal that insights about a problem came ' in a flash ' so to speak. Out of the blue. Who, pray tell , is in charge of the blue? Oh ya , I forgot, quirks and quarks. If you think scientists are some special highly evolved subspecies of humanoid that would never be affected by the baggage of the foibles of mere humans , well the history of withdrawn, falsified, and unrepeatable assertions in peer reviewed papers should give you pause. No scientist or group of scientists have ever skewed results to fit a political or economic agenda.  OK , if you insist.

  I think most scientists do their jobs with accuracy and integrity. We in the modern world have greatly benefitted from the accumulation of knowledge. We have also suffered from the misuse ( or the intended use ) of science and tech discoveries. I, however, do not carry around a pair of rose colored glasses to put on whenever I read of some great new finding. I assume most scientists don't either.

  And you are right , I am ( and can be ) quite ignorant.

[Thinking]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But just for kicks, what if you get to the other side and find out everything taught over the pulpit by the prophets and apostles was true.  What if they were absolutely right on the realities of eternity?

I'll just have to quote Martin Gore for my response.

Quote

I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find Him laughing

 

[Damien the Leper]

I find this hypothetical to be rather myopic. In proposing a "what if", we are led to more questions and hypothetical questions. It seems rather redundant and mundane.

[rodheadlee]

16 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I find this hypothetical to be rather myopic. In proposing a "what if", we are led to more questions and hypothetical questions. It seems rather redundant and mundane.

Is that all there is to a fire?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

So...what if isn't true?  None of it.  That there is no restoration or priesthood or work for the dead.  What kind of response would those faithful here have if it is a 19th century man made religion after all?

"Ooops"

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

So...what if isn't true?  None of it.  That there is no restoration or priesthood or work for the dead.  What kind of response would those faithful here have if it is a 19th century man made religion after all?

This is what we spend half of our time on this board debating.  I want to discuss the opposite just for a change of pace.

[Damien the Leper]

42 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Is that all there is to a fire?

I don't understand the question.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

I wouldn't call it playing tricks. I would call it giving us highly challenging tests of our faith and faithfulness.

Except that synoptic Gospels filled each other's shortages, which is an obvious fact for the historians. John's Gospel came 80-90 years later embelishing the story further. 

But this is not the crucial test for Christian Religion. It never fulfilled the promises.....

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Sure, if you accept the discrepancies anything goes.And Then God absolves from the responsibility of confusion with your permission. 

There's a lot of agreement in the gospels and they are united in their witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Also, we have latter-day revelation to corroborate them.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I've followed the various answers and especially your comments. It seems you are under the misconception that the guilty, when confronted with the inevitable truth of the situation, will somehow, in fits of remorse, suddenly feel the ground open under them and cry for mercy.

A guilty person will do everything to conceal their acts but when confronted with the facts will not collapse into a quivering, remorseful shambles. The responses will be all from "I didn't do anything" to "Prove it".

I witnessed a father who had sexually abused his daughter, when confronted by his daughter, responded with, "How dare you, you ungrateful so-and-so!" His counter attack was ferocious, aggressive, loud and unrelenting. Any confession or admission of wrongful act was taken to his grave.      

You're curious how people will respond to finding out that:    

* the flood happened                                                                                                                                                                                    * polygamy was justified                                                                                                                                                                                            * The BofM was historical,                                                                                                                                                                   etc., etc.?

I doubt you or anyone else will get any happiness from the "plight of the guilty" or the "remorse from the unbeliever" or the "fear and dread of unfaithful as they gaze into the abyss of eternal damnation" 

At most, the eternally lost, they (I) will respond with a shrug of their (my) shoulders.

Such cynicism.
This entire thread is merely an attempt to reverse our usual method of discussion, from the "how do we handle it if it isn't true" to the "how do we handle it if it's all true".

This isn't about taking pleasure in the "plight of the guilty".
The critics, doubters, and skeptics frequently ask the faithful members what if Joseph lied.
I am asking those people what if Joseph told the 100% truth.  Can we come to terms with truth over our feelings?

[Atheist Mormon]

24 minutes ago, CMZ said:

There's a lot of agreement in the gospels and they are united in their witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Also, we have latter-day revelation to corroborate them.

CMZ, not that I disrespect your view.....I've bee type of person that I always wanted to have my cake and eat too I hated to wait for promises to be fulfilled....I suspect it had something to do with my ADHD.....Besides life is way too short for waiting any type of promises.

[CMZ]

5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

CMZ, not that I disrespect your view.....I've bee type of person that I always wanted to have my cake and eat too I hated to wait for promises to be fulfilled....I suspect it had something to do with my ADHD.....Besides life is way too short for waiting any type of promises.

Good thing is that each individual can enjoy the witness of the Holy Ghost right now.

[rodheadlee]

47 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I don't understand the question.

 

[carbon dioxide]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But just for kicks, what if you get to the other side and find out everything taught over the pulpit by the prophets and apostles was true.  What if they were absolutely right on the realities of eternity?
Is truth more important than feelings?
 

If what the LDS believe is true and it all happened, the results are simple.  The faithful will be exalted and those that rejected it or would not have the faith to accept it can spend an eternity of time thinking about it in a lower kingdom.  If this life is designed to be a test, than there will be issues that the Lord will allow to come into the Church to test the membership.  If everything made sense to everyone, it would not be much of a test.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Such cynicism.
This entire thread is merely an attempt to reverse our usual method of discussion, from the "how do we handle it if it isn't true" to the "how do we handle it if it's all true".

This isn't about taking pleasure in the "plight of the guilty".
The critics, doubters, and skeptics frequently ask the faithful members what if Joseph lied.
I am asking those people what if Joseph told the 100% truth.  Can we come to terms with truth over our feelings?

JL, what is your answer to those that ask "what if Joseph lied"? I don't think I've ever seen a post from you on this, no need to answer if you'd rather not.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

If what the LDS believe is true and it all happened, the results are simple.  The faithful will be exalted and those that rejected it or would not have the faith to accept it can spend an eternity of time thinking about it in a lower kingdom.  If this life is designed to be a test, than there will be issues that the Lord will allow to come into the Church to test the membership.  If everything made sense to everyone, it would not be much of a test.

So what does that mean when something you just hate or cannot accept here turns out to be true?
If God is perfect and good, and you fundamentally disagree with God and find one of his teachings completely objectionable, how do you move past those feelings.

Not so concerned with future eternity right now. 
We spend a lot of time asking members what they would do if they discovered Mormonism was false (and then some attempt to achieve this goal).
I am asking the critics and doubters what they would do if they discovered Mormonism was true.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So what does that mean when something you just hate or cannot accept here turns out to be true?
If God is perfect and good, and you fundamentally disagree with God and find one of his teachings completely objectionable, how do you move past those feelings.

Not so concerned with future eternity right now. 
We spend a lot of time asking members what they would do if they discovered Mormonism was false (and then some attempt to achieve this goal).
I am asking the critics and doubters what they would do if they discovered Mormonism was true.

I believed Mormonism was true for over 40 years, it's only been the last 10 that I've questioned. I guess I have the belief still that I won't be condemned to hell, blame that on my Mormonism!  Now if I were an EV, it might be a 100 times harder to be a disbeliever, it'd be down right scary if that religion turned out to be true. Does that make sense? Therefore, I'm actually very grateful to have grown up LDS now, thanks for making me aware of this!

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

JL, what is your answer to those that ask "what if Joseph lied"? I don't think I've ever seen a post from you on this, no need to answer if you'd rather not.

I don't have an answer for what they should do.
I have previously stated that I don't believe he lied at all about his revelations (other than withholding information occasionally).
---------------------
But I'm not looking to flip the argument back to the usual format.  So I'll use you for an example if you don't mind.
Your primary issue appears to have been polygamy.

So if I discovered Joseph lied about polygamy coming from God...I fully admit it would have a faith tremor very high on the Richter scale.
But how would I discover such a thing.  His polygamy neither troubles me nor blindsided me.  So I'm not sure what could cause this.
And we have had dozens, nay hundreds of threads about this side.

For this thread of mine:
I am asking you.  What if in this life it could be proven to you from God that polygamy not only came from God but was approved by him, was practiced by him and the Savior in all their perfection, and that polygamy when lived righteously (not like the FLDS) was the family order of heaven.
How would you then go about changing your feelings to match the perfect perspective of God on polygamy?

How do we change ourselves to accept something we had previously despised if we discover it is correct?
 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't have an answer for what they should do.
I have previously stated that I don't believe he lied at all about his revelations (other than withholding information occasionally).
---------------------
But I'm not looking to flip the argument back to the usual format.  So I'll use you for an example if you don't mind.
Your primary issue appears to have been polygamy.

So if I discovered Joseph lied about polygamy coming from God...I fully admit it would have a faith tremor very high on the Richter scale.
But how would I discover such a thing.  His polygamy neither troubles me nor blindsided me.  So I'm not sure what could cause this.
And we have had dozens, nay hundreds of threads about this side.

For this thread of mine:
I am asking you.  What if in this life it could be proven to you from God that polygamy not only came from God but was approved by him, was practiced by him and the Savior in all their perfection, and that polygamy when lived righteously (not like the FLDS) was the family order of heaven.
How would you then go about changing your feelings to match the perfect perspective of God on polygamy?

How do we change ourselves to accept something we had previously despised if we discover it is correct?
 

If it were lived, for the most part, like the show "Sister Wives", I would probably be fine, as long as we had a choice in the matter. My choice would be to be as the angels.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Tacenda

[CMZ]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

JL, what is your answer to those that ask "what if Joseph lied"? I don't think I've ever seen a post from you on this, no need to answer if you'd rather not.

This is why each person is promised an answer from the Spirit, so they can get their own personal revelation direct from heaven. This removes the situation from one of, "Mortal A insists that Mortal B supply x amount of convincing evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet." Evidence can certainly be presented in that regard, and plenty of it, but it will always fall short of the full convincing power of the Holy Ghost. Or... a person can be like Simonds Ryder (sp?) who joined the Church because a Mormon girl accurately predicted an earthquake in China (what he took as intellectual evidence of the proof of the truthfulness of the Church) and then left the Church when Joseph Smith misspelled one letter in his name in a written revelation. He joined based on an intellectual testimony alone but left later because he wasn't rooted in the gospel in the way he would have been if he had also sought for and received the promised spiritual and personal testimony.

Edited December 19, 2016 by CMZ

[emeliza]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

But why would anyone want to stick to one set of principles with the idea that it is all you need to know?  You would be limiting yourself.

I have a hard enough time following the gospel principles that adding more to it seems pretty unnecessary.  They are basic and good and simple and I still mess them up.  Guess I would just rather limit myself until I get them down right.

[The Nehor]

[emeliza]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

So...what if isn't true?  None of it.  That there is no restoration or priesthood or work for the dead.  What kind of response would those faithful here have if it is a 19th century man made religion after all?

That would be awful for those of us who have dedicated our lives to the gospel.  Many would lose all faith in God if they feel they have been deceived by something we have felt was so inspired by God.

Someone online commented on eternal families maybe not being true and that was utterly heartbreaking for me to imagine.