What if it's ALL true?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

So...what if isn't true?  None of it.  That there is no restoration or priesthood or work for the dead.  What kind of response would those faithful here have if it is a 19th century man made religion after all?

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Then we are all suckers who wasted our lives. Admittedly it probably means life itself is pretty pointless so it really won't matter that much.

Fortunately it does happen to all be real so all is well. Well, except for the heathen apostates who go to Perdition. They are pretty much doomed.

[CMZ]

"And we did live after the manner of happiness."

The gospel helps people live after the manner of happiness now; it's not all just about some future reward.

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But just for kicks, what if you get to the other side and find out everything taught over the pulpit by the prophets and apostles was true.  What if they were absolutely right on the realities of eternity?
Is truth more important than feelings?
 

I would ask God why he didn't answer my prayers. Why didn't he honor Moroni's promise when I came to him after much fasting and study.  Did he not want me in his church?  

[CMZ]

3 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I would ask God why he didn't answer my prayers. Why didn't he honor Moroni's promise when I came to him after much fasting and study.  Did he not want me in his church?  

Sounds like you have a kernel of a testimony.

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Sounds like you have a kernel of a testimony.

I think most members who lose their testimony, at one time had a very strong testimony and didn't take it lightly. I believe Sunstoned very well asked over and over and never got an answer. I too have not received one either. 

[Five Solas]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Is that all there is to a fire?

I just wanna say - I picked up on your reference before you subsequently posted the link.  Well played, rodheadlee!

--Erik

PS.  And now I'm going to go back & enjoy it. 

:0)

[sam]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I would ask God why he didn't answer my prayers. Why didn't he honor Moroni's promise when I came to him after much fasting and study.  Did he not want me in his church?  

Millions of people can testify of the power of pray and how god has answered their prays. 

I would say most people grow in faith over several years if not decades. 

I would say you gave up on pray to quickly.

but this is a question that takes some introspection pray study and faith.

good luck if you have the desire to do so.

[CMZ]

57 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think most members who lose their testimony, at one time had a very strong testimony and didn't take it lightly. I believe Sunstoned very well asked over and over and never got an answer. I too have not received one either. 

Okay, so if they had a testimony and then lose it (for whatever reason) does that then mean the gospel ceases being true?

I don't know the exact details of yours and Sunstoned's situations. My testimony came together in something of a piecemeal fashion that was partly due to asking about the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon, partly due to reading and intently studying other gospel resources, partly getting smacked with the Spirit unexpectedly while listening to some talks, partly from trying in my own haphazard and weak way to try to continuously live the gospel even when all the answers weren't crystal clear. Over time the acorn became a mighty oak. Following Moroni's promise is the main prescribed method for receiving a testimony of the gospel, but there can be other factors involved, and each individual has a journey custom-tailored to them.

[Five Solas]

Not to elevate PJ Harvey (admittedly where I first heard the song & a massive talent in her own right) above Peggy Lee, but this cover is at least worth consideration, rodheadlee. 

--Erik

_______________________________________

I know what you must be saying to yourselves
If that's the way she feels about it why doesn't she just end it all?
Oh, no, not me I'm not ready for that final disappointment
'Cause I know just as well as I'm standing here talking to you
When that final moment comes and I'm breathing my last breath, I'll be saying to myself

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

[CMZ]

From the Lectures on Faith:

Quote

How do men obtain a [personal] knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes? By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly strengthening their faith in him, until, like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves.

 

[strappinglad]

I assume that sunstoned did as said. Three thoughts: 1.  Were  prayers ever answered about any other aspect of life or have the heavens always been as a brass shield for any query? 2. Consider the parable of the Sower. Is it fair to blame the soil for the rejection of the seed? 3. Even Christ had a time when He felt abandoned by His Father.

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Except that synoptic Gospels filled each other's shortages, which is an obvious fact for the historians. John's Gospel came 80-90 years later embelishing the story further. 

But this is not the crucial test for Christian Religion. It never fulfilled the promises.....

So says an atheist who denies the very existence of God and the reality of the spiritual realm. Will you still be trying to convince yourself and others others that there is no God when on the day of judgement you are looking directly into the face of the living God? 

[bcuzbcuz]

11 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I believe that the situation will be quite a bit different when a person stands at the judgment bar. We are told that we shall "have a bright recollection of all our guilt." (Alma 11:43)

"A bright recollection of all our guilt" That could certainly be a possibility. But that wasn't my point. My memory of what I've done in my life isn't a fog or filled with rosy pictures. When you're married and have free spoken children, those rosy pictures are often shattered with a simple, "No, that wasn't what happened at all."

My take on it is that much like a runner who knows he/she is outclassed, isn't heartbroken when he/she looses a race. There are people who act and proclaim their goal to the highest of salvations (and this whole thread is devoted to the idea that that, somehow, is going to be the reality). I imagine those who announce such as their goal will be extremely disheartened if they fail to make the grade (because they overlooked some essential issue or stumbled at the finish line).

Me, I'm quite content to pace myself. I live my life with a goal not featured in an afterlife, but to live it in the here and now. I spend time and money on working with refugees and handicapped. If that doesn't measure up to some external standard, I'm not going to cry buckets in self deprecation or even to fear supposed penalties for goals missed. I am content with my decisions

On the other hand, you quote scripture. The Bible has dozens, many dozens, of verses concerning the afterlife and the day of judgment. Painters like Michelangelo, and a whole host of medieval painters, preachers, priests and scaremongers have tried to portray an awaiting doom for those who have not done well in life. Current day hellfire and damnation preachers also revel in screaming out a doctrine of fear. They glory in defining the utmost of gory details of eyes being poked out by fiery spears and the sinner's innards torn out from living bodies, all in an attempt to bring the sinner to repentance through fear of damnation.

How's that going for them?  Are those preachers gaining ground? Are people turning from their sinful ways to strive for a better judgment. Judging from world news and internet tubers posting pictures of wild fests in LAs Vegas, I think the fear of damnation is not gaining much ground.

Back to the question. What will be the end result of getting to the afterlife and finding everything taught by Joseph Smith was 100% correct, or finding that 100% of everything taught from the GA's mouths was the complete truth? From me, a shrug of my shoulders. I lost a race I refused to participate in. It's like scraping a lottery ticket to find out you didn't win the big prize. A fleeting disappointment that goes over like a puff of wind. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by bcuzbcuz

[Atheist Mormon]

11 hours ago, CMZ said:

Good thing is that each individual can enjoy the witness of the Holy Ghost right now.

CMZ,

That is not Holy Ghost, not a third party....All the information flows go through your brain & your body gets commands accordingly. 

Very simple, as Spock would say "it's logical".

[Jeanne]

15 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I would say, why did men come up with a more just, merciful, fair, compassionate, wise and truly loving plan of salvation than you did?

I didn't come up with the idea...it was pretty much the only alternative. 

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

"Ooops"

I love this.   Oooops...that would be my feelings..the thing is..all the "what if's" in the world means we simply just don't know.  Moroni's promise..prayers answered or not..we don't know the whys..

[snowflake]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you for the very honest answer.
I am genuinely curious how people think they will respond.  Not how the doubter even will respond.  But specifically how someone who believes Joseph Smith was a fraud would respond to find out he was everything we claim ( and more).
I am curious how the person who believes polygamy is nothing but evil would respond to find out it came from God.
I am curious how the scientist would respond if they found out there was a global flood.
I am curious how the anthropologists would respond if they found out the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham actually are historical records.
I am curious how the SSM advocates would respond if they found out that SSM is a great sin and not a part of eternity.
I am curious how the astronomers and physicists would respond if they found out God did live on the planet Kolob and the earth did fall from that location.
I am curious how the traditional Christian believer would respond if they found out that the King Follett doctrine is true.

What if it's all true?  And by it, I mean the teachings of the gospel.
We spend a lot of time on this board asking the "what ifs" different teachings are false, what are members to do.
I want to know the what ifs the teachings are all true.
 

By the way great OP! Not many willing to answer your question though.

As a Bible believing Christian, to answer this question, I would be quite shocked by:

Mutiple Gods, God has a wife, wow!  God is trapped by a physical body in time and space. God has a Dad, incredible!  Matter is eternal, awesome.  I would be shocked by the LDS gospel as well, Jesus alone was not enough, I had to work my way to be good enough to get up to God.  And here is another one I would absolutely by blown away by, Joseph is a true prophet!!!!! He was an upstanding member of the community and all the anti-material you learned about is a lie! The BOM and BOA are accurate both historically and theologically. Thomas Monson is a true prophet as well???? I guess I got that one wrong too.

I would not be shocked in the least by: There is one God who exists outside of time, space and matter.  A global flood, dinosaurs lived with man before the flood, people before the flood lived a very long time, the earth is only 6000 years old, I couldn't earn and don't deserve God's grace. Jesus is enough, all my hope faith and trust is in Him alone. The Bible is God's true Word.

Now with that said, JHLPROF, according to you where do I stand, What would my fate be? Terrestrial, outer darkness? Thanks.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Now with that said, JHLPROF, according to you where do I stand, What would my fate be? Terrestrial, outer darkness? Thanks.

Completely irrelevant to this thread.
Only concerned with reversing the "what is the faithful member to do if they discover it's wrong" debate and get some thoughts on "what is the doubter/critic to do if they realize it's all true".
 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, snowflake said:

By the way great OP! Not many willing to answer your question though.

As a Bible believing Christian, to answer this question, I would be quite shocked by:

Mutiple Gods, God has a wife, wow!  God is trapped by a physical body in time and space. God has a Dad, incredible!  Matter is eternal, awesome.  I would be shocked by the LDS gospel as well, Jesus alone was not enough, I had to work my way to be good enough to get up to God.  And here is another one I would absolutely by blown away by, Joseph is a true prophet!!!!! He was an upstanding member of the community and all the anti-material you learned about is a lie! The BOM and BOA are accurate both historically and theologically. Thomas Monson is a true prophet as well???? I guess I got that one wrong too.

I would not be shocked in the least by: There is one God who exists outside of time, space and matter.  A global flood, dinosaurs lived with man before the flood, people before the flood lived a very long time, the earth is only 6000 years old, I couldn't earn and don't deserve God's grace. Jesus is enough, all my hope faith and trust is in Him alone. The Bible is God's true Word.

Now with that said, JHLPROF, according to you where do I stand, What would my fate be? Terrestrial, outer darkness? Thanks.

Despite your misunderstanding of some main LDS doctrines (like the relationship between faith and works and the Atonement), I think it's awesome that you were willing to actually answer the question.  Most of the posters who have replied on this thread haven't been able to even mentally go there.  

Per your last question, definitely not outer darkness or Telestial kingdom (if you've represented yourself accurately here).  Possibly terrestrial or celestial.  No LDS person worth anything would ever actually try to judge where you'll end up in the eternities though.  None of us have enough information to do so.

[canard78]

On 12/18/2016 at 3:47 PM, mfbukowski said:

Of course it's true.

The problem is that we can only know that through feelings 

God told me so.

Even after death? Will the truth of whether blacks were denied the priesthood based on human bias or godly command still only be answered through feelings?

[canard78]

On 12/18/2016 at 5:35 AM, JLHPROF said:

Just for fun (not so much for deep theological debate) because of 2 or 3 threads on the board right now (eternal nature, attracting disaffected, etc)

What if ALL recorded official/semi-official teachings and doctrines of Mormonism turn out to be absolutely true?

We spend a lot of time on this board debated how maybe the Book of Mormon is false, or polygamy was a mistake, or doctrine X or Y or Z is false because of reasons.
We break every teaching and practice of the Church down the smallest minutia.  We worry about whether the gospel is "true for me" and how it makes me feel.
And then we discuss what believers, doubters, questioners, former believers, etc should do/have done.

But just for kicks, what if you get to the other side and find out everything taught over the pulpit by the prophets and apostles was true.  What if they were absolutely right on the realities of eternity?
Is truth more important than feelings?
 

To have a stab at answering your question as accurately and directly as possible... if it all turns out to be true... I'll be gutted!

If it turns out that, by pure random chance, I was lucky enough to be one of the <0.001% of people born into Mormonism, the one true path to godliness and then was stupid enough to step off it, I will weep and wail and gnash my teeth for a few million years.

I'll then spend a few decades working out how to make the most out of the next umpteen billion years of existence. The person who is currently my wife will, in all likelihood be in the same kingdom, as will, I'd expect, my children. According to Mormon doctrine, they won't be my wife and children any more. But we'll still get to hang out, as spiritual siblings. Some of my earthly siblings will probably be there too... still as my siblings, but spiritual siblings.

I might set up the Telestial or Terrestrial choir. We'll cover uplifting songs most of the time but throw in a few heavy rock numbers, to remember the old days. I'll have an awesome orchestra and a great group of vocalists. Imagine a million-strong choir, with soloists from the likes of Nina Simone, David Bowie, John Lennon... I'm almost excited at the thought. I'll also have a stab at recreating the World Cup and the Olympics. Not all of the earth's sports stars are going to be celestial, right? Imagine a tournament including the likes of Pele, Maradonna, Stanley Matthews, Paul Gascoigne and Ronaldo... all at their prime? And I'd love to see if a drug-free Ben Johnson could beat Usain Bolt or Jesse Owens.

Perhaps, on very rare occasions, I'll get to meet up with one of you from the Celestial kingdom. I know we're told we won't... but 10 trillion years is a long time, right? So there's a chance one of you might, at some point, accidentally bump into me while they're travelling round the universe. I'll ask you how you're getting on with your eternal family. I'll be sure to ask you the technicalities of how those spirit babies are created and whether you are in a polygamous relationship. I'll ask you how polygamy's working out for you. I'll acknowledge that I miss being married, but I will also explain to you that I wouldn't be interested in having an eternal family if polygamy was the cost of having one. I'll look for ways of celebrating and praising the good you are now doing, whatever that happens to be.

I'll also be sure to ask you a question: I'll ask you, next time you're meeting with God (our god... not one of the other million-or-so that would now exist), why he decided to be so absent, so anonymous, so obscure. I'll want you to ask him why he taught us not to hide our light under a bushel, but then chose to hide his own truths under such a mountain of complicated bushels. I'll ask you to get a direct answer, rather than a "pearl of great price worth searching for" obfuscation. I'll ask you to ask him why it was buried so deep that the only glimmers of light that escaped were so dim and fragmented that thousands and millions of different articulations of that truth were created that all contradicted, caused uncertainty, dispute and confusion.

If it all turns out to be true, then I'll wish all you, the faithful Mormons, well on your progression towards godliness and I'll also ask you to think of the rest of us, in our Telestial/Terrestrial playground in the sky. Finally, if it's all completely true, and you're all now gods and goddesses of your own worlds, I'll ask and encourage you to consider doing a better and more structured job of teaching your spirit children the truth than our father appears to have done for us.

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, canard78 said:

Even after death? Will the truth of whether blacks were denied the priesthood based on human bias or godly command still only be answered through feelings?

Why not? Will the question even need to be asked, and if so, will it actually be answered or will it be discovered?

9 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I'll ask and encourage you to consider doing a better and more structured job of teaching your spirit children the truth than our father appears to have done for us.

This (bolded) is why I point to "discovery."

Edited December 19, 2016 by CV75

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, canard78 said:

To have a stab at answering your question as accurately and directly as possible... if it all turns out to be true... I'll be gutted!

If it turns out that, by pure random chance, I was lucky enough to be one of the <0.001% of people born into Mormonism, the one true path to godliness and then was stupid enough to step off it, I will weep and wail and gnash my teeth for a few million years.

I'll then spend a few decades working out how to make the most out of the next umpteen billion years of existence. The person who is currently my wife will, in all likelihood be in the same kingdom, as will, I'd expect, my children. According to Mormon doctrine, they won't be my wife and children any more. But we'll still get to hang out, as spiritual siblings. Some of my earthly siblings will probably be there too... still as my siblings, but spiritual siblings.

I might set up the Telestial or Terrestrial choir. We'll cover uplifting songs most of the time but throw in a few heavy rock numbers, to remember the old days. I'll have an awesome orchestra and a great group of vocalists. Imagine a million-strong choir, with soloists from the likes of Nina Simone, David Bowie, John Lennon... I'm almost excited at the thought. I'll also have a stab at recreating the World Cup and the Olympics. Not all of the earth's sports stars are going to be celestial, right? Imagine a tournament including the likes of Pele, Maradonna, Stanley Matthews, Paul Gascoigne and Ronaldo... all at their prime? And I'd love to see if a drug-free Ben Johnson could beat Usain Bolt or Jesse Owens.

Perhaps, on very rare occasions, I'll get to meet up with one of you from the Celestial kingdom. I know we're told we won't... but 10 trillion years is a long time, right? So there's a chance one of you might, at some point, accidentally bump into me while they're travelling round the universe. I'll ask you how you're getting on with your eternal family. I'll be sure to ask you the technicalities of how those spirit babies are created and whether you are in a polygamous relationship. I'll ask you how polygamy's working out for you. I'll acknowledge that I miss being married, but I will also explain to you that I wouldn't be interested in having an eternal family if polygamy was the cost of having one. I'll look for ways of celebrating and praising the good you are now doing, whatever that happens to be.

I'll also be sure to ask you a question: I'll ask you, next time you're meeting with God (our god... not one of the other million-or-so that would now exist), why he decided to be so absent, so anonymous, so obscure. I'll want you to ask him why he taught us not to hide our light under a bushel, but then chose to hide his own truths under such a mountain of complicated bushels. I'll ask you to get a direct answer, rather than a "pearl of great price worth searching for" obfuscation. I'll ask you to ask him why it was buried so deep that the only glimmers of light that escaped were so dim and fragmented that thousands and millions of different articulations of that truth were created that all contradicted, caused uncertainty, dispute and confusion.

If it all turns out to be true, then I'll wish all you, the faithful Mormons, well on your progression towards godliness and I'll also ask you to think of the rest of us, in our Telestial/Terrestrial playground in the sky. Finally, if it's all completely true, and you're all now gods and goddesses of your own worlds, I'll ask and encourage you to consider doing a better and more structured job of teaching your spirit children the truth than our father appears to have done for us.

This is good Canard. The CK has the carrot that you'll be with God. But many of us just want to be with our family we have on earth. If we live with God, and go to the top tier, won't we be so busy creating our world, and having spirit babies, living polygamy, where would we really be with our current families? Sounds like they'd be creating their worlds or be in another kingdom, if they are faithful LDS. The lower kingdoms sound like heaven to me. I always say I'd be fine being an angel. But an angel that helps those on earth, not an angel like Brigham Young mentions, that will be a servant to those at the top, really now? That's not what the Bible teaches. 

When we're told in the church that it's all about eternal families, the eternal families aren't the ones living on earth really. Because in my understaning if we're all Gods we'll be making new ones. Our children on earth will be too. But in the non LDS Christian viewpoint, they'll be with their original families in heaven not making new ones too. I like that better, and I believe we will be married in heaven. That is the kind of God I believe in.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Despite your misunderstanding of some main LDS doctrines (like the relationship between faith and works and the Atonement), I think it's awesome that you were willing to actually answer the question.  Most of the posters who have replied on this thread haven't been able to even mentally go there.  

Per your last question, definitely not outer darkness or Telestial kingdom (if you've represented yourself accurately here).  Possibly terrestrial or celestial.  No LDS person worth anything would ever actually try to judge where you'll end up in the eternities though.  None of us have enough information to do so.

I can respect your comment, thank you!

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, canard78 said:

To have a stab at answering your question as accurately and directly as possible... if it all turns out to be true... I'll be gutted!

If it turns out that, by pure random chance, I was lucky enough to be one of the <0.001% of people born into Mormonism, the one true path to godliness and then was stupid enough to step off it, I will weep and wail and gnash my teeth for a few million years.

I'll then spend a few decades working out how to make the most out of the next umpteen billion years of existence. The person who is currently my wife will, in all likelihood be in the same kingdom, as will, I'd expect, my children. According to Mormon doctrine, they won't be my wife and children any more. But we'll still get to hang out, as spiritual siblings. Some of my earthly siblings will probably be there too... still as my siblings, but spiritual siblings.

I might set up the Telestial or Terrestrial choir. We'll cover uplifting songs most of the time but throw in a few heavy rock numbers, to remember the old days. I'll have an awesome orchestra and a great group of vocalists. Imagine a million-strong choir, with soloists from the likes of Nina Simone, David Bowie, John Lennon... I'm almost excited at the thought. I'll also have a stab at recreating the World Cup and the Olympics. Not all of the earth's sports stars are going to be celestial, right? Imagine a tournament including the likes of Pele, Maradonna, Stanley Matthews, Paul Gascoigne and Ronaldo... all at their prime? And I'd love to see if a drug-free Ben Johnson could beat Usain Bolt or Jesse Owens.

Perhaps, on very rare occasions, I'll get to meet up with one of you from the Celestial kingdom. I know we're told we won't... but 10 trillion years is a long time, right? So there's a chance one of you might, at some point, accidentally bump into me while they're travelling round the universe. I'll ask you how you're getting on with your eternal family. I'll be sure to ask you the technicalities of how those spirit babies are created and whether you are in a polygamous relationship. I'll ask you how polygamy's working out for you. I'll acknowledge that I miss being married, but I will also explain to you that I wouldn't be interested in having an eternal family if polygamy was the cost of having one. I'll look for ways of celebrating and praising the good you are now doing, whatever that happens to be.

I'll also be sure to ask you a question: I'll ask you, next time you're meeting with God (our god... not one of the other million-or-so that would now exist), why he decided to be so absent, so anonymous, so obscure. I'll want you to ask him why he taught us not to hide our light under a bushel, but then chose to hide his own truths under such a mountain of complicated bushels. I'll ask you to get a direct answer, rather than a "pearl of great price worth searching for" obfuscation. I'll ask you to ask him why it was buried so deep that the only glimmers of light that escaped were so dim and fragmented that thousands and millions of different articulations of that truth were created that all contradicted, caused uncertainty, dispute and confusion.

If it all turns out to be true, then I'll wish all you, the faithful Mormons, well on your progression towards godliness and I'll also ask you to think of the rest of us, in our Telestial/Terrestrial playground in the sky. Finally, if it's all completely true, and you're all now gods and goddesses of your own worlds, I'll ask and encourage you to consider doing a better and more structured job of teaching your spirit children the truth than our father appears to have done for us.

I like your angle.

But I do have one question.  Your post seems to imply that even if everything is true, you still can't conceive of anyway that the concept of God being just could be true.  

I say that because parts of your post (bolded above) clearly blame God, should you end up having chosen wrong.  You seem to be saying that, while you would accept whatever eternity holds, it wouldn't really be fair and that if God had only been a better Father/God, you would have a different outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on 'what if it's all true' that don't ignore the 'God is merciful and just' doctrine that the LDS church is built on.