HappyJackWagon Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 This article is terrible. I find it hard to believe that either the progressive or orthodox member would agree with the article but I'm open to alternate views. Here are some of claims the article makes. Quote 1) Takes Care of Their Own 2) Does Good in the Community 3) Does Good Around the World 4) Has Long-term Security 5) Is Highly Efficient Volunteerism 6) Responds Well to Criticism 7) Is Open to Truth Doesn’t Randomly Change to Keep Up With the Times 9) Has Moral Courage 10) Physically Healthier 11) Mentally Healthier 12) More Educated 16) Provides Awesome Stories etc. I'm interested in thoughts about the general premise, that because of these 21 things the church gets right, it doesn't matter if the church is "true". Or is the "good fruits" test sufficient? If it is sufficient, don't many church's and other organizations also meet these standards? http://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/it-doesnt-matter-mormon-church-is-true/
ksfisher Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This article is terrible. I find it hard to believe that either the progressive or orthodox member would agree with the article but I'm open to alternate views. Here are some of claims the article makes. I'm interested in thoughts about the general premise, that because of these 21 things the church gets right, it doesn't matter if the church is "true". Or is the "good fruits" test sufficient? If it is sufficient, don't many church's and other organizations also meet these standards? http://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/it-doesnt-matter-mormon-church-is-true/ I don't think that the "good fruits" test is ever sufficient. Any such test seems fraught with subjective judgements. And yes, many other organizations also seem to appear good by this test. What would seem to be important is a combination of temporal and eternal fruit. 4
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 I need the church to be true to be happy and hopeful. Or at least truth that there is a God and an afterlife and I'll be with my loved ones for eternity. That's what matters most to me.
waveslider Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) It is definitely very important to know that the church is true, as testified by the Holy Ghost to each of us personally. We can't live off of, "borrowed light." There is a reason why Christ Himself said: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24 Without that testimony, it will be very easy to be deceived. From some of the things I have seen discussed on this very board, I see people already being deceived, and the world is only going to get more wicked creating more deception. Edited November 12, 2016 by waveslider Punctuation error 1
Jeanne Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) All I can say is...are you kidding me??? I think I could make mincemeat out of these. Trust me...it does matter. Edited November 12, 2016 by Jeanne 1
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted November 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) On 11/12/2016 at 10:17 AM, HappyJackWagon said: This article is terrible. I find it hard to believe that either the progressive or orthodox member would agree with the article but I'm open to alternate views. Here are some of claims the article makes. I'm interested in thoughts about the general premise, that because of these 21 things the church gets right, it doesn't matter if the church is "true". Or is the "good fruits" test sufficient? If it is sufficient, don't many church's and other organizations also meet these standards? http://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/it-doesnt-matter-mormon-church-is-true/ The late Professor Sterling McMurrin did not believe that the LDS Church was "true," but he admired its socio-cultural structure and said so. Horrible things are often said about the LDS Church and its members. Perhaps that is why articles like this are seen as a necessary corrective. Yes, there are plenty of other religions and other groups which do a lot of good in the world. We should respect them all, and work with them --which is what we currently do. What's not to like? Edited November 15, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 5
Jeanne Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 There are many good things about the church that does not make it unique. Some very good things are also found in other religions.
boblloyd91 Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 I didn't like the article at all. It's a fallacy I see some members engage in unfortunately, where because there are some temporal blessings it must mean it is the ultimate truth. The church isn't true if it makes someone happier, healthier or more socially involved. It's true because of the Book of Mormon, The First Vision, and Priesthood restoration. Of course some good temporal fruits come from this, but it needs to go deeper than the article is talking about.
theplains Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: There are many good things about the church that does not make it unique. Some very good things are also found in other religions. The true church of Christ is not a visible organization. Jim
Robert F. Smith Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 7 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: I didn't like the article at all. It's a fallacy I see some members engage in unfortunately, where because there are some temporal blessings it must mean it is the ultimate truth. The church isn't true if it makes someone happier, healthier or more socially involved. It's true because of the Book of Mormon, The First Vision, and Priesthood restoration. Of course some good temporal fruits come from this, but it needs to go deeper than the article is talking about. It isn't so much that the LDS Church is true, as that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. And the only way to know that is not by temporal means, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit. Professor McMurrin did not think that the LDS Church was true, but he did admire its socio-cultural nature -- and he didn't feel a need to bear false witness about it. As though that could justify his disbelief. 4
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 13 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: This article is terrible. I find it hard to believe that either the progressive or orthodox member would agree with the article but I'm open to alternate views. Here are some of claims the article makes. I'm interested in thoughts about the general premise, that because of these 21 things the church gets right, it doesn't matter if the church is "true". Or is the "good fruits" test sufficient? If it is sufficient, don't many church's and other organizations also meet these standards? http://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/it-doesnt-matter-mormon-church-is-true/ I guess this article might be directed toward members like me who, for one, do not accept truth claims, but continue to attend church. In reading this article, you could apply these same 21 reasons to most religions, in my opinion. I was a little shocked by: 11) Mentally Healthier "Mormon teens are more optimistic and less likely to commit suicide. And overall the more active you are in the LDS church the more meaning you find in your life." Isn't teen suicide for young, gay Mormons a pretty big epidemic in Utah?
waveslider Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Isn't teen suicide for young, gay Mormons a pretty big epidemic in Utah? Just how many young, gay Mormons are there? I would think that it is a very small minority, when compared to the amount of Mormon teens all counted together. I don't think it is enough to make that statement false, IMO Edited November 13, 2016 by waveslider Punctuation error
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 1 minute ago, waveslider said: Just how many young, gay Mormons are there? I would think that it is a very small minority, when compared to the amount of Mormon teens all counted together. I don't think it is enough to make that statement false, IMO http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-youth-suicide-now-leading-cause-of-death-for-utah-kids-ages-11-17?lkj
waveslider Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-youth-suicide-now-leading-cause-of-death-for-utah-kids-ages-11-17?lkj I guess there are more young, gay Mormons. Now that society glamorizes it, perhaps it is now the new cool thing to be gay, or something. Interesting time frame coinciding with all the gay rights issues and changes in legislation, and reports in media to the masses. Perhaps that blog statement is incorrect after all.
waveslider Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 17 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-youth-suicide-now-leading-cause-of-death-for-utah-kids-ages-11-17?lkj Oh, I just looked up the citation of where he got the stats that Mormon youth were more mentally stable. The time on it was back in 2004, so perhaps it was true then, but not now. Thanks for the updated info.
Bernard Gui Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-youth-suicide-now-leading-cause-of-death-for-utah-kids-ages-11-17?lkj Quote There is no one cause or clear reason why the numbers are rising..... In November, the LDS church added same-sex marriage to its definition of apostasy, excluding children of same-sex marriages from membership until they turn 18. If children of gay couples wish to become members as adults, the Church requires them to disavow their parents' practice of same-sex cohabitation or marriage and stop living within the household. The church's governing First Presidency would need to approve such baptisms. "We have been closely watching our rates since various events that happened in Utah relating to the LDS church," Hood said. "We have not seen an increase tied to those announcements." Or this: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2016/suicide-replaces-homicide-second-leading-cause-death-among-us-teens.aspx Quote (June 2016) Suicides have become the second-leading cause of death among teenagers in the United States, surpassing homicide deaths, which dropped to third on the list. The teenage suicide rate increased from 8 deaths per 100,000 in 1999 to 8.7 deaths per 100,000 in 2014. KUTV: Quote The youth suicide rate has tripled in Utah since 2007 -- jumping from three out of every 100,000 youth to 8.5, an alarming increase not seen anywhere else in the country PRB: Quote The teenage suicide rate increased from 8 deaths per 100,000 in 1999 to 8.7 deaths per 100,000 in 2014. It would appear Utah is .2/100,000 under the national average. Edited November 13, 2016 by Bernard Gui 1
Calm Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Isn't teen suicide for young, gay Mormons a pretty big epidemic in Utah? There are no actual stats demonstrating this iirc, just anecdotes, some that have been proved impossible (for example, one claim there were not enough deaths among teens in general for the claimed place and time period, let alone for LDS gay teens which would be a low percentage of the population and thus minority of suicides even at a higher than four times as likely rate usually given for the national US rate among gay teens iirc). Otoh there are strong statistics demonstrating that active LDS young men are much less likely to commit suicide than there less active or nonMormon counterparts. Edited November 13, 2016 by Calm 2
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Calm said: There are no actual stats demonstrating this iirc, just anecdotes. Otoh there are strong statistics demonstrating that active LDS young men are much less likely to commit suicide than there less active or nonMormon counterparts. From the Utah Department of Health website:http://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/topics/suicide/ "Utah's suicide rate has been consistently higher than the U.S. rate for the last decade. Utah had the 7th highest suicide rate in the U.S. in 2014 for persons aged 10 years and older (4). A CDC study found that Utah had the highest prevalence of suicidal thoughts among adults in the U.S." Another government website: https://ibis.health.utah.gov/indicator/complete_profile/SuicDth.html "From 2012 to 2014, Utah's age-adjusted suicide rate was 20.8 per 100,000 persons. This is an average of 557 suicides per year. Utah has one of the highest age-adjusted suicide rates in the U.S. In 2014, suicide was the leading cause of death for Utahns ages 10 to 17 and 18-24. It is the second leading cause of death for ages 25 to 44 and the fourth-leading cause of death for ages 45-64. Overall, suicide is the eight-leading cause of death for Utahns ages 10+."
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Or this: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2016/suicide-replaces-homicide-second-leading-cause-death-among-us-teens.aspx KUTV: PRB: It would appear Utah is .2/100,000 under the national average. "Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all ttp://www.kued.org/sites/default/files/utah-facts-2016_2000.pdf http://utahsuicideprevention.org/facts-data 1
Tacenda Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 8 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: "Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all ttp://www.kued.org/sites/default/files/utah-facts-2016_2000.pdf http://utahsuicideprevention.org/facts-data It's time that people face the truth, some are in denial. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: It's time that people face the truth, some are in denial. I agree. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10798286
Calm Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: "Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all ttp://www.kued.org/sites/default/files/utah-facts-2016_2000.pdf http://utahsuicideprevention.org/facts-data Yeah, this Mamadragon claim is the one that is impossible. Discussed in detail here when it came out, so if you are interested you can find it easily. There were also news articles mentioning the problem, iirc the best one was in the Trib. Linking to a whole site tells us nothing. What on that site supports your claim. Edited November 13, 2016 by Calm 2
Ouagadougou Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 These are Utah State Gov sites that clearly illustrate that youth suicides is a problem in Utah.
Calm Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: It's time that people face the truth, some are in denial. Yes, the truth that those making the claims have never done actually studies to demonstrate this. While suicide numbers are collected by the government, neither religion nor sexual identity/orientation is. There are some good studies out there showing for older homosexuals iirc, activity in their faith may have a negative coorelation as well as leaving that faith actually increases the suicide rate, not decreases it. Iirc Nevo cited the study in the same thread that demonstrated the Mamadragon claim was impossible due to there not being even teen suicides in general (and possibly teen deaths even), let alone when you adjusted for percentage of religion and orientation. 3
Calm Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: These are Utah State Gov sites that clearly illustrate that youth suicides is a problem in Utah. Youth suicide is definitely a problem in Utah as it is in surrounding states, including those without a high LDS population. Plus studies that deal specifically with LDS religion as a variable demonstrate that being an active LDS has a high protective effect for teen males (iirc, it is close to nonactive being four times as likely to commit suicide as well as nonLDS being 7 times as likely as active LDS). There have been no studies that have dealt specifically with gay LDS teens so it is impossible to judge how much weight other demonstrated, but conflicting variables would play for that demographic group. Would the protective nature of being LDS, especially active LDS be negated or would it negate the higher general suicide rate of gay teens? 1
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