21 Reasons Why it Doesn't Matter if the Church is True-

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 

If these statistics are right, I wonder if there is a rumor mill trying to make the church look bad in some circles. It will be good to get to the bottom of it and make sure we're doing everything possible to stop people from taking their lives. I think enough people think the policy needs to go and they see the hurt it's caused, they might stir up things to get the policy changed. But we'll have to see the correct numbers to be sure. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If these statistics are right, I wonder if there is a rumor mill trying to make the church look bad in some circles. It will be good to get to the bottom of it and make sure we're doing everything possible to stop people from taking their lives. I think enough people think the policy needs to go and they see the hurt it's caused, they might stir up things to get the policy changed. But we'll have to see the correct numbers to be sure. 

There are only currently preliminary numbers, but I find it hard to believe the actual numbers are what? 10 times greater than the preliminaries if they were close to estimated normal ratios and even if we assume there was no climb in heterosexual rates, it seems beyond belief that there was suddenly no heterosexual suicides occurring when there is a climbing rate of homosexual.  Just the contagion effect would seem to indicate some increase.

So we have 2 gay suicides and we need 24 more to meet Montgomery's numbers or 12 a month more or 2-3 a week of gay suicides as opposed to the original count of 10 suicides that might have included 2-3 gay suicides in the two month period of time most likely.

And no one collecting numbers is noticing? 

Or is it a desperate and ultimately sadly ridiculous claim?

if that makes sense, pure luck...floating, but not sleepy urgh...

Edited November 14, 2016 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

This isn't a thread about suicide.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the article and the author's claims about 1- it doesn't matter if the church is true 2- the specific claims about subjects like how church members have better mental and physical health, or how the church takes criticism well or 3- why something like "the church tells good stories" matters in any regarding whether or not a person should engage with the church.

 

 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This isn't a thread about suicide.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the article and the author's claims about 1- it doesn't matter if the church is true 2- the specific claims about subjects like how church members have better mental and physical health, or how the church takes criticism well or 3- why something like "the church tells good stories" matters in any regarding whether or not a person should engage with the church.

 

 

There is no such thing as a "true church". I do agree that goodness matters. I don't think that the LDS church is at the top of any heap (nor would I say that any other church is). You could write a list like this for just about any denomination. 

 

Takes Care of Their Own

Yes, I think that's fair. 

Does Good in the Community

Yes, but I believe we punch far below our weight here. 

Does Good Around the World

Yes, but again we punch below our weight. 

Has Long-term Security

I think that's safe to say

Is Highly Efficient Volunteerism

I would take issue with that. I think we end up doing a lot of redundant "service" with our unpaid ministry. I'd rather that money went to professional ministers who could do more good with more focus. We just end up spending all of our money on infrastructures and teaching materials and BYU. 

Responds Well to Criticism

I think we respond well to criticism from outsiders who don't know much about us. But there is very little tolerance for criticism from within.

Is Open to Truth

I think this is true, but changes as a result of new information take place at a snail's pace

Doesn’t Randomly Change to Keep Up With the Times

True, but we change to keep up with yesterday's times.

Has Moral Courage

I think that's true, although some of our morality is misguided

Physically Healthier

Plausible, I'd like to see some more recent studies

Mentally Healthier

I don't think we have enough evidence to conclude whether or not Mormonism provides any sort of mental health benefits. It works very well for some, it's tolerable for others, and harmful for some. People are different, there is never going to be one church that works for everyone. It doesn't help that we tend to throw out the sample of people who stop attending or leave the church. In my experience I've seen people leave BECAUSE church is making them miserable. Conversely I think you're more likely to stay if church makes you happy.

More Educated

I'm not sure this is true:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/

Self-Reliant

I think for whatever reason poor people (often they are converts) do tend to drop out of the church more, at least in the US. My guess is that they can't afford to pay 10% of their income and so self select out.

Prepared for Emergencies

Can't argue with this.

Connected to Their Heritage

Very much so.

Provides Awesome Stories

I have never found our stories to be "awesome" but sometimes they are interesting!

Come from Many Backgrounds

True to a certain extent, but still very white

Are Happy

Looks like we're second place to Jewish people? But our moderates are not happier than other moderates. 

Promotes Pro-Social Behaviors

I think that's plausible

Creates Social Connection

Definitely

Provides Family Support

Agreed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

Quote

Doesn’t Randomly Change to Keep Up With the Times

True, but we change to keep up with yesterday's times.

Great line.

Quote

Responds Well to Criticism

I think we respond well to criticism from outsiders who don't know much about us. But there is very little tolerance for criticism from within.

I agree.

I think many of the claims of the article are simplistic and unfounded. Most of the claims like "responds well to criticism" is purely subjective. Thanks for sharing the stats on the Education survey results. I was thinking of that specifically but hadn't taken the time to post.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This isn't a thread about suicide.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the article and the author's claims about 1- it doesn't matter if the church is true 2- the specific claims about subjects like how church members have better mental and physical health, or how the church takes criticism well or 3- why something like "the church tells good stories" matters in any regarding whether or not a person should engage with the church.

 

 

I can only repeat.  It really does matter if the church is true ...or not.  Entire lives are revolved,dedicated and focused on what is said to be truth of the church.  Sometimes to damaging degrees on both sides.  It does matter.  The past has to make peace with the present and let people decide for themselves...and when they decide..no judgement, no condenscion, just a genuine respect.

[Gray]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Great line.

I agree.

I think many of the claims of the article are simplistic and unfounded. Most of the claims like "responds well to criticism" is purely subjective. Thanks for sharing the stats on the Education survey results. I was thinking of that specifically but hadn't taken the time to post.

Thanks HJW. Articles like these pop up I think because we still have a superiority complex. We think we're the one true church, which means thinking we're better than everyone else. But also we're a bit insecure because we know we're kind of fringy and weird. 

[HappyJackWagon]

35 minutes ago, Gray said:

Thanks HJW. Articles like these pop up I think because we still have a superiority complex. We think we're the one true church, which means thinking we're better than everyone else. But also we're a bit insecure because we know we're kind of fringy and weird. 

This article struck me as insecure. See, look how awesome we are. In fact, we're so awesome, it doesn't even matter if the church isn't true. It strikes me as both humorous and pathetic.