Thy Will Be Done?

[JLHPROF]

So recently someone I know recommended that we pray today that the will of the Lord for the country (whether his goal is prosperity or destruction  ) will be done.
This got me to thinking.

Why do we pray that the Lord's will be done?
Obviously this practice comes from Christ's prayer - thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
But how do you think this would work.

Let's use the election example:
1. Let's say (for the sake of argument) God would prefer Trump over Clinton.
2. If God has that preference and purpose he is fully capable of bringing it to pass.  Nothing we pray will change the course he has planned.  If he wants Trump to lead, Trump will win.
3. If God doesn't have a preference and we pray the result if God intervenes won't be his will and if he doesn't intervene it won't be his will.

Do we think that God's will ever WON'T be done if he has a purpose?  No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God etc.
Are we requesting our agency be removed so that God can decide for us?
What exactly are we asking when we ask "thy will be done"?

 

[Marmonboy]

I think basically we're asking for God to give us what He wants us to have, not what we might want the most. Quite often these are not the same things.

[pogi]

I think saying "thy will be done" is more of a verbal affirmation of your submission to God's will, whatever the outcome may be, rather than a plea for him to take control of the situation.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think saying "thy will be done" is more of a verbal affirmation of your submission to God's will, whatever the outcome may be, rather than a plea for him to take control of the situation.

So should we be praying for God's will to be done or should we be praying that WE will put aside our own will?
Isn't God's will going to be done anyway?

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So recently someone I know recommended that we pray today that the will of the Lord for the country (whether his goal is prosperity or destruction  ) will be done.
This got me to thinking.

Why do we pray that the Lord's will be done?
Obviously this practice comes from Christ's prayer - thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
But how do you think this would work.

Let's use the election example:
1. Let's say (for the sake of argument) God would prefer Trump over Clinton.
2. If God has that preference and purpose he is fully capable of bringing it to pass.  Nothing we pray will change the course he has planned.  If he wants Trump to lead, Trump will win.
3. If God doesn't have a preference and we pray the result if God intervenes won't be his will and if he doesn't intervene it won't be his will.

Do we think that God's will ever WON'T be done if he has a purpose?  No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God etc.
Are we requesting our agency be removed so that God can decide for us?
What exactly are we asking when we ask "thy will be done"?

I think it means that we commit that we will do His will. When pray for something and add, "according to Thy will," it is a commitment to accept His decision and action on our petition, whatever it may be in His greater wisdom.

[Boanerges]

I agree to with what others are saying, the "thy will be done" is more about our willingness to submit to His will than anything else - similar to the way Jesus submitted to the will of the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I personally don't think cares about or influences political elections - otherwise there would be no despots. I'm not sure what God does do, but I know one thing He will not do and that is that He will never interfere with someone's agency or free will.

[Jeanne]

Maybe God doesn't have a will in this.  It is agency and choice..which is His divine right that He gives us.  We may be just judeged (or willed) to live with the consequences..and that is the real test.

[bluebell]

I think when we pray "Thy will be done" it's just another way to say "not my will, but thine be done."

[Jeanne]

I love "The Lord's Prayer"...in fact had it sung at my husband's funeral...but does anyone think that through the "will of the Lord"..that it  speaks for pre-destination or pre-ordination that has nothing to do with us?  I know this doesn't make sense..but hey..I know what I am talking about...

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So recently someone I know recommended that we pray today that the will of the Lord for the country (whether his goal is prosperity or destruction  ) will be done.
This got me to thinking.

Why do we pray that the Lord's will be done?
Obviously this practice comes from Christ's prayer - thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
But how do you think this would work.

Let's use the election example:
1. Let's say (for the sake of argument) God would prefer Trump over Clinton.
2. If God has that preference and purpose he is fully capable of bringing it to pass.  Nothing we pray will change the course he has planned.  If he wants Trump to lead, Trump will win.
3. If God doesn't have a preference and we pray the result if God intervenes won't be his will and if he doesn't intervene it won't be his will.

Do we think that God's will ever WON'T be done if he has a purpose?  No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God etc.
Are we requesting our agency be removed so that God can decide for us?
What exactly are we asking when we ask "thy will be done"?

 

Are you sure about #2? 

Although it's an interesting idea in the context of this election (and the past few elections).  Because if we assume that LDS are most in tune with the Spirit and God's will, then it would seem that either God doesn't care who leads the country, or He has preferred losing candidates for the past few elections.

I think the most logical and doctrinally sound conclusion is that God has preferences for who leads the nations of the world, but gives citizens absolute freedom in choosing their leaders and doesn't get involved.  Hopefully He endeavors to inspire them as much as they ask, regardless of whether or not they were His first pick on election day.

Edited November 8, 2016 by cinepro

[Marmonboy]

It makes sense...maybe sometimes God's will is that we make a decision, one way or another. His plan covers whatever we decide. The important thing is that WE decide, and not sit around waiting for Him to do everything.

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So should we be praying for God's will to be done or should we be praying that WE will put aside our own will?
Isn't God's will going to be done anyway?

Whoever says, "thy will be done" has already committed to put aside his own will and is simply acknowledging that fact to the Father.  For someone who has not yet reached that depth of submission, praying for help to lay aside our will is perfectly appropriate.

God's will is an interesting thing.  On one hand God's will is always done.  His will is for us to use our agency either to our destruction or our salvation.  Either way, God's will is done and ultimately God wins.  On the other hand, God's will is for us to turn to him in submission in all things, in which case God's will is rarely done.  Ultimately yes, God gets his way in the end, but it doesn't necessarily unfold in the way that he would wish for us due to our unwillingness to submit to Him. 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Are you sure about #2?

I see what you are saying.
The people chose to go against God.
But did that in any way frustrate "God's will" or "God's purpose".

We do have our agency but scriptures also say God's work will not be frustrated.
Kind of an interesting conflict.
For example - Malachi said without the keys of Elijah the earth would be utterly destroyed.  If we as agents of choice elected to corrupt the priesthood and lost the keys (as was done in other dispensations) could this entire earth be lost?  Could God's work and glory be stopped by our choices?
And if it can what of the scriptures promising that it won't?

[JLHPROF]

So back to the OP scenario?

If we pray that God's will be done in today's election, AND we have our own agency to choose/vote how does that work?
Does God influence us to vote against our agency?
Does that mean that whoever wins was God's will because it cannot be frustrated and he has a purpose in it?
Does praying to God that his will be done have ANY impact on the outcome of our choice?

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

So back to the OP scenario?

If we pray that God's will be done in today's election, AND we have our own agency to choose/vote how does that work?
Does God influence us to vote against our agency?
Does that mean that whoever wins was God's will because it cannot be frustrated and he has a purpose in it?
Does praying to God that his will be done have ANY impact on the outcome of our choice?

How do we vote against our agency?  If we choose to do something without being forced, then we have used our agency.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So recently someone I know recommended that we pray today that the will of the Lord for the country (whether his goal is prosperity or destruction  ) will be done.
This got me to thinking.

Why do we pray that the Lord's will be done?
Obviously this practice comes from Christ's prayer - thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
But how do you think this would work.

Let's use the election example:
1. Let's say (for the sake of argument) God would prefer Trump over Clinton.
2. If God has that preference and purpose he is fully capable of bringing it to pass.  Nothing we pray will change the course he has planned.  If he wants Trump to lead, Trump will win.
3. If God doesn't have a preference and we pray the result if God intervenes won't be his will and if he doesn't intervene it won't be his will.

Do we think that God's will ever WON'T be done if he has a purpose?  No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God etc.
Are we requesting our agency be removed so that God can decide for us?
What exactly are we asking when we ask "thy will be done"?

 

Sister Gui and I have been having this very discussion as we grapple with children in addiction. What exactly should we pray for? That God's will be done? What we want would be for Him to override their agency.

What is God's will? His will is that we all be given immortality and eternal life.  So we conclude that our prayer is to help us accept that God knows them and has their best interest at heart. He will provide for them what we cannot.

Perhaps our prayers should be that God give us the ability to align ourselves with his grand purpose (his will) and to do that which is in our sphere of influence to be a part of it. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So recently someone I know recommended that we pray today that the will of the Lord for the country (whether his goal is prosperity or destruction  ) will be done.
This got me to thinking.

Why do we pray that the Lord's will be done?
Obviously this practice comes from Christ's prayer - thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
But how do you think this would work.

Let's use the election example:
1. Let's say (for the sake of argument) God would prefer Trump over Clinton.
2. If God has that preference and purpose he is fully capable of bringing it to pass. 

True.  But God stays His hand all the time, allowing us to do things that are not in accordance with His will.  So while His overall objectives cannot be frustrated, he allows His children to mess up on issues large and small.  All the time.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Nothing we pray will change the course he has planned.  If he wants Trump to lead, Trump will win.

Or not.  God does not want us to sin, and yet we do.  God does not want us to war against each other, and yet we do.

Or it may be that God does not want either major candidate to win.  

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

3. If God doesn't have a preference and we pray the result if God intervenes won't be his will and if he doesn't intervene it won't be his will.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence.  

I see no downside to praying for the Lord's will to come to pass.  it is not a foregone conclusion that it will.  "Prayer and fasting" appear to be prerequisites for at least some aspects of God's will being brought to pass.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Do we think that God's will ever WON'T be done if he has a purpose? 

I don't think the wicked designs of men will frustrate God's Plan.  That does not mean, however, that such designs cannot create interim injuries to the children of God.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God etc.

In the macro sense, yes.  But as to individuals and individual events, God allows bad people to do bad things.  Consider Alma 14 (emphases added):

Quote

 8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

 9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

 12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

 13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not.

Let's think about that.  "The Spirit" constrained Alma and Amulek from saving people who were being burned to death.  Those murders were plainly not in accordance with the will of God, and yet not only did not allow them to happen, He actively constrained His servants from stopping them.  Verse 11 seems to explain at least part of the reason why this sort of thing can happen.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Are we requesting our agency be removed so that God can decide for us?

I think we are requesting that God help us in properly exercising our agency.

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

What exactly are we asking when we ask "thy will be done"?

Submitting to the will of God appears to consist of us discerning the will of God and then using our agency in ways that conforms to His will.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

How do we vote against our agency?  If we choose to do something without being forced, then we have used our agency.

If I think Trump should win and God's will is that Hillary wins, and people are praying that God's will be done, does that mean God could "soften my heart" or "speak to my mind" that I should vote to achieve his purpose?

[JLHPROF]

Thank you all for your responses.
This question occurred to me this morning after it was suggested to me that we pray today that God's will would be done in this election.
I am not sure how God would answer that prayer without intervening in our choices.
And if he didn't intervene then does that mean his will or purpose is being frustrated by our agency?

Thought it would make a good discussion.

[rpn]

His will is that His children love and seek Him, and vote the people that they think will help them and society be the best place to flourish in becoming like Him.    He doesn't have any will at all about whether it is Trump or Clinton or someone else.   He cares whether or not we are seeking Him and turning to Him.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If I think Trump should win and God's will is that Hillary wins, and people are praying that God's will be done, does that mean God could "soften my heart" or "speak to my mind" that I should vote to achieve his purpose?

I think so.  If you are praying to know who best to vote for (or praying to vote how God wants you too, etc.), then the Spirit can answer that question and it's not a loss of your agency to adjust your vote accordingly.

Even if you aren't praying, I think there are a million different ways that God could provide information/knowledge/guidance to someone (from articles, to friends, to what secrets come to light, etc..) that could influence how they ultimately choose to vote, if that was His will.

And if His will is to let us do whatever we want and then deal with the aftermath, He could NOT do those things too.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think so.  If you are praying to know who best to vote for (or praying to vote how God wants you too, etc.), then the Spirit can answer that question and it's not a loss of your agency to adjust your vote accordingly.

Even if you aren't praying, I think there are a million different ways that God could provide information/knowledge/guidance to someone (from articles, to friends, to what secrets come to light, etc..) that could influence how they ultimately choose to vote, if that was His will.

And if His will is to let us do whatever we want and then deal with the aftermath, He could NOT do those things too.

Well in any case...we sure need Him today!!

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think when we pray "Thy will be done" it's just another way to say "not my will, but thine be done."

I also look at it as a hope that this will come to pass, that the people of this earth will come to obey the will of the Lord here on earth as it is done in Heaven.

 

[waveslider]

I think it all stems down to the atonement. If we are truly seeking to be one with God then we should willingly give our free agency over to Him and only seek for His will all the time. The sacramental prayers help us to commit to this and we have promises that His Spirit will always be with us. The key is for us to always remember His son. Take His name upon us and keep His commandments.

We are told by Chirst, "....Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Luke 11:9) So if we ask and it shall be given us, how does that work? It can only work if we are led by the Spirit in what to ask. If we are truly seeking to be at one with God we will seek His guidance in what we ask.

Here is a list of scripture references, that I won't copy and paste since it would just take up a lot of room, that let us know that we can be led in what to ask in prayer, and that's why the righteous are promised that all that they ask for will be given.... Because they have given all the of their free will to the cause of being at one with God and His purposes.

D&C 50:29,30

Romans 8:26

D&C 46:30-32

D&C 3:4

2 Nephi 32:3,5,8,9

Alma 37:40-46

Moses 4:4

I think the true test of our free agency is if we will completely give it over to God, on our own free choice, without any coercion whatsoever, trying to become one with Him, as Christ gives us that grace to be able to do so, by leading us with His Spirit and with the infinite atonement. That's how I look at it anyway.

 

 

 

[pogi]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you all for your responses.
This question occurred to me this morning after it was suggested to me that we pray today that God's will would be done in this election.
I am not sure how God would answer that prayer without intervening in our choices.
And if he didn't intervene then does that mean his will or purpose is being frustrated by our agency?

Thought it would make a good discussion.

If I prayed "thy will be done" in reference to this election, it would not so much be an effort to evoke intervention from God to have his favorite candidate win, because I don't believe that he wouldn't do that.  It would be more of a "I trust that you know what you are doing up there in the grand scheme of things, because we may screw this one up big time, and if you are going to let us screw it up, thy will be done."

I say that jokingly, but in all honesty I think that kind of mindset can actually give us peace through troubling times.

Edited November 9, 2016 by pogi