LDS Church welfare, humanitarian efforts avg $40m/yr

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I didn't see Property Reserve on the City Creek 990T (Doesn't mean the church doesn't own it, It could be a subsidiary of another entity)

Page 8 in the 18 page 990T.

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I didn't see Property Reserve on the City Creek 990T (Doesn't mean the church doesn't own it, It could be a subsidiary of another entity)

It would appear the Property Reserve is a seperate non profit.  I found their 990-t for their unrelated business income here http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2015_11_T/87-6128054_990T_201412.pdf

on page 9 it says that it is also controlled by the corporation of the president.

It looks like they just about broke even.

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

your welcome

It wouldn't appear that the church is running large profits from their "for profit" entities.

Nope... especially not from City Creek due to the timing of that project.  Bishop Burton once admitted that they might not have done it if they had known how bad the recession was going to be.  But, it's a long term hold, and will someday be profitable.  I think that the Riverton development should turn a good profit.

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Nope... especially not from City Creek due to the timing of that project.  Bishop Burton once admitted that they might not have done it if they had known how bad the recession was going to be.  But, it's a long term hold, and will someday be profitable.  I think that the Riverton development should turn a good profit.

I hope they do eventually turn a profit.

Keep in mind these are tax forms, any relation to reality may be coincidental.

"   Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant. " Judge Learned Hand 

[Danzo]

18 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

NBC News estimated $7 billion tithing

If you are correct, they are referring to gross revenue, not net profit.

[rockpond]

24 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I hope they do eventually turn a profit.

Keep in mind these are tax forms, any relation to reality may be coincidental.

"   Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant. " Judge Learned Hand 

True.

And even more true given that we don't entirely know what the Brethren's goals are with respect to these activities.

[VideoGameJunkie]

$40 million is a lot of money!

[Danzo]

47 minutes ago, rockpond said:

True.

And even more true given that we don't entirely know what the Brethren's goals are with respect to these activities.

I suspect they are probably best stated by Moses 1:39

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

The do, however file a for 990-T which means that they have unrelated business income (Not illegal, just means the income is taxable, same rules as a C corporation)

The 990-T for City creek can be found http://pdfs.citizenaudit.org/2014_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201312.pdf

It reported a loss of about 28 million in 2013. 

24 million appears to be depreciation.  Anyone have a clue what depreciated here?

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

24 million appears to be depreciation.  Anyone have a clue what depreciated here?

I would expect it would be real estate and other fixed assets, like cars, equipment and furniture, leasehold improvements, intangible properties, etc.

That is what is usually depreciated. 

Most equipment is written off over 8 years

vehicles and computers are 6 years.

Commercial real estate 39 years

the code gives large tractor truck combos four years (they must have a good lobby)

Leasehold improvements get 15 years as well as intangible property (patents, copyrights, etc)

 

[Calm]

It was commercial.  I assume this means the wear and tear on buildings drop their value over time?

If so, what is the 24 million...a total of 39 years of wear and tear for certain properties or what.

Sorry, am curious but tired of googling for the day (way too much that and time on the phone for insurance stuff).

[Calm]

Or does it mean they assume commercial buildings have no value after 39 years, so it takes the cost of building, divide by 39 so you can then claim that amount for the next 39 years after you build something?

[Danzo]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was commercial.  I assume this means the wear and tear on buildings drop their value over time?

If so, what is the 24 million...a total of 39 years of wear and tear for certain properties or what.

Sorry, am curious but tired of googling for the day (way too much that and time on the phone for insurance stuff).

Try not to think too hard about it.  Its 39 years because tax law says it is, not for any other logical reason.

The depreciation number is probably a combination of different properties that have different rules and different periods.

when the assets are sold, if they sell them for more than they bought them for, they will have to report a taxable gain on the depreciation they took.

If the depreciation is on equipment that gets worn out and thrown away, they get to keep the write off.

[Danzo]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or does it mean they assume commercial buildings have no value after 39 years, so it takes the cost of building, divide by 39 so you can then claim that amount for the next 39 years after you build something?

Thats how it works, but the 39 years is just tax law for commercial buildings.

Residential buildings are 27.5 years.  I don't know where they got that number either.

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

$40 million is a lot of money!

 

16 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

There are 14,160 LDS congregations in the USA, so let's say each gives 200k of tithing every year (some wards give about one million).  So 200k X 14,160 is 2,832,000,000, so I say it is at least 3 Billion American tithing dollars. 

+ Fast Offerings = At least 3.5 Billion.  

+ Church-owned tax paying businesses = 3.5 Billion+ American dollars 

$40 million worldwide is a lot of money, but it is nothing compared to 3.5 Billion+ American dollars. I do hope our church gives donates money to medical and scientific research.  

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/income-distribution/

 

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

There are 14,160 LDS congregations in the USA, so let's say each gives 200k of tithing every year (some wards give about one million).  So 200k X 14,160 is 2,832,000,000, so I say it is at least 3 Billion American tithing dollars. 

+ Fast Offerings = At least 3.5 Billion.  

+ Church-owned tax paying businesses = 3.5 Billion+ American dollars 

$40 million worldwide is a lot of money, but it is nothing compared to 3.5 Billion+ American dollars. I do hope our church gives donates money to medical and scientific research.  

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/income-distribution/

Is that data US only or worldwide? I know there are wards that give millions every year (grew up in one) but I think the numbers skew the other way when you go to South America, Africa, and some parts of Asia. In the more socialist countries in Europe donations are also lower because they tend to pay on net.

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Is that data US only or worldwide? 

Yes, I am talking about the USA, American dollars.  

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I know there are wards that give millions every year (grew up in one) but I think the numbers skew the other way when you go to South America, Africa, and some parts of Asia. 

but Elder Oaks already said it is only 40 million worldwide. There are rich wards in Mexico and South America, there are areas with a lot of rich members of the church, especially the Mormon colonies in Mexico. Look up Casas Grandes, Mexico. 

According to MormonWiki there are only two countries outside the USA that have more than 1,000 congregations. Brazil and Mexico, at least in 2014. http://www.mormonwiki.com/Membership_Statistics Together they make 3,994 congregation. 3,994 is not much compared to 14K American congregations. Latin America wards tend to be much smaller than USA wards .

So let's say it is the other way in around in Mexico and Brazil. 

1. Chapels don't have pianos,

2. Many chapels in South America don't even have water fountains. Ask the Return Missionaries. 

3. Chapels don't have carpets and don't have nice furniture. 

4. Wards don't have the boy scouts, and poor stakes don't usually make expensive activies.  

5. Many chapels don't have heaters and air conditioners  

6. American chapels are much nicer 

7. Aid (such as food) to LDS members that need temporal help is much smaller. There is no bishop storehouse in Latin America. 

Electricity and Water are cheaper in Mexico and Brazil, I don't think the church needs to pay a lot of money for them. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[The Nehor]

Just now, TheSkepticChristian said:

Yes, I am talking about the USA, American dollars.  

but Elder Oaks already said it is only 40 million worldwide. There are rich wards in Mexico and South America, there are areas with a lot of rich members of the church, especially the Mormon colonies in Mexico. Look up Casas Grandes, Mexico. 

According to MormonWiki there are only two countries outside the USA that have more than 1,000 congregations. Brazil and Mexico, at least in 2014. http://www.mormonwiki.com/Membership_Statistics Together they make 3,994 congregation. 3,994 is not much compared to 14K American congregations. Latin America wards tend to be much smaller than USA wards .

So let's say it is the other way in around in Mexico and Brazil. 

1. Electricity and Water are cheaper in Mexico and Brazil. 

2. Chapels don't have pianos,

3. Many chapels in South America don't even have water fountains. Ask the Return Missionaries. 

4. Chapels don't have carpets and don't have nice furniture. 

5. Wards don't have the boy scouts, and poor stakes don't usually make expensive activies.  

6. Many chapels don't have a heaters and air conditioners  

7. American chapels are much nicer 

 

I was just curious about the logic behind your income number. You seem to be trying to not so subtly make some other point.

As to the idea that the Church is not giving enough I dismiss it. Those numbers do not seem to include Fast Offerings and if my time as a Ward Clerk are any indication then that $40 million would not cover the needs in just the United States and I was not in a perpetually suffering ward.

[TheSkepticChristian]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Those numbers do not seem to include Fast Offerings and if my time as a Ward Clerk are any indication then that $40 million would not cover the needs in just the United States and I was not in a perpetually suffering ward.

okay dude, but aid to LDS members comes from fast offerings, according to the church. Aid does not come from tithing, it comes from fast offerings. 

Quote

The law of tithing is how the Lord funds His Church. Today all faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contribute one tenth of their income as tithing. Tithing funds are used for: Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings. Providing operating funds for the Church. Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.) Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations. Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions. Education

Church pamphlets and ads are very nice, probably very expensive too. 

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was just curious about the logic behind your income number. You seem to be trying to not so subtly make some other point.

 I am not saying anything, Read my post again. Someone simply asked for a CFR. 

Quote

There are 14,160 LDS congregations in the USA, so let's say each gives 200k of tithing every year (some wards give about one million).  So 200k X 14,160 is 2,832,000,000, so I say it is at least 3 Billion American tithing dollars. 

+ Fast Offerings = At least 3.5 Billion.  

+ Church-owned tax paying businesses = 3.5 Billion+ American dollars 

$40 million worldwide is a lot of money, but it is nothing compared to 3.5 Billion+ American dollars. I do hope our church gives donates money to medical and scientific research. 

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[rockpond]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

I suspect they are probably best stated by Moses 1:39

At a high level, of course.  But we don't know much about the financial implementation of that since they decided to stop sharing that info. 

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

At a high level, of course.  But we don't know much about the financial implementation of that since they decided to stop sharing that info. 

Its a trust issue, I guess.

Since I believe that this is the church of Jesus Christ, I believe that any problems with incorrect administration of funds will be corrected by him in his way and in his time.

I personally have seen funds administered very well on a local level, and i seen no reason to fear that there is any widespread misuse of funds.  Since the administration of the funds are in the hands of humans, there will be problems, since we are flawed.  However, this condition affects any other organization.

Just because financial statements are disclosed on tax forms or other reports, doesn't mean that you can see what is really happening.

I earn a large part of my living due to the fact the what is reported on tax and other financial forms doesn't always reflect reality.  I see it every day. 

Form 990s (the tax forms that non profits use) are notorious for their errors.

 

Have you had any experience with misuse of church funds that caused you to lose your trust?

Or is it just the general fear of not knowing?

[BlueDreams]

11 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Yes, I am talking about the USA, American dollars.  

but Elder Oaks already said it is only 40 million worldwide. There are rich wards in Mexico and South America, there are areas with a lot of rich members of the church, especially the Mormon colonies in Mexico. Look up Casas Grandes, Mexico. 

According to MormonWiki there are only two countries outside the USA that have more than 1,000 congregations. Brazil and Mexico, at least in 2014. http://www.mormonwiki.com/Membership_Statistics Together they make 3,994 congregation. 3,994 is not much compared to 14K American congregations. Latin America wards tend to be much smaller than USA wards .

So let's say it is the other way in around in Mexico and Brazil. 

1. Chapels don't have pianos,

2. Many chapels in South America don't even have water fountains. Ask the Return Missionaries. 

3. Chapels don't have carpets and don't have nice furniture. 

4. Wards don't have the boy scouts, and poor stakes don't usually make expensive activies.  

5. Many chapels don't have heaters and air conditioners  

6. American chapels are much nicer 

7. Aid (such as food) to LDS members that need temporal help is much smaller. There is no bishop storehouse in Latin America. 

Electricity and Water are cheaper in Mexico and Brazil, I don't think the church needs to pay a lot of money for them. 

I've been to several ward buildings in Mexico. 3-4 while I was vacationing with a local family a couple weeks ago. The buildings are generally nice but have a different layout. The floors are all tile because most buildings in Mexico are tile-floored. I personally prefer them because they look nicer than the cheap carpet we use in u.s. Buildings. There's no need for carpet.

There was running water in all the ones I visited but the one out in the middle of nowhere in a small branch. It was in a courtyard with open windows and a toilet that you had to take a bucket of water outside to flush. In the area it was at, it was still one of the nicer buildings and the infrastructure of this area was lacking (that was also around 10 years ago). Most places in Mexico don't have water fountains period. Because you can't drink tap water there. I remember both ward buildings having pianos of some sort in Puebla area, though I don't think it was in the impoverished rural area. It wouldn't make much sense. No one could play the piano there. I think there was AC but I can't remember. It wasn't super necessary in the area I was at.

And I don't know if I'd call the colonies super wealthy. The colonies look a lot like a little town in Utah. Some of the members are well off, but many aren't. I prefer Puebla personally. But many of the areas are still poor of have a lot of poor members. Such as a small town in Puebla that was called the "Utah" of Puebla. It was a town of 16,000 that had I think 2-3 (4?) stakes in it. I went to help with a youth fireside for a ward there and there was 30+ youth attending. The area was largely a farming community and was run down.

I don't know about your last 2 points. But I think several of your points preceding it are way too simplified. Overall, minus that one branch, I didn't feel like the wards there were a massive step down from American ones. They were a little less excessive in decor, but still beautiful. 

with luv,

BD

Edited July 15, 2016 by BlueDreams

[strappinglad]

A long time ago in a country far, far away, there arose a cuffuffle from the government of the land about the fact that the church took tithing money from the people and sent it to the US. IIRC the church took in about $12,000 in tithing and the gov't officials were all miffed. The Church then showed that about $250,000 was sent into the country to help support the church. For some reason the Gov't  of the country became vewy, vewy, kwiet.

[Gray]

18 hours ago, Danzo said:

So I guess we have an explanation on why the church doesn't do better.

You would rather help pay red cross's billion dollar salaries (over half of their revenue).

I know you already researched this, so it obviously doesn't bother you.

All big charities have to have leadership, and good leadership costs money. But at least they're transparent. I don't see the point in throwing money into a black hole and hoping it's used for philanthropic purposes. 

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

All big charities have to have leadership, and good leadership costs money. But at least they're transparent. I don't see the point in throwing money into a black hole and hoping it's used for philanthropic purposes. 

A larger portion of our money goes to the philanthropic purpose of getting and keeping people out of hell. Unfortunately our critics do not see this as a worthy cause.