Major Stake and Ward Realignment Today. Do such moves hurt or help?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Having lived in the "mission field" most of my life, I've been through quite a few of these realignments. I have mixed feelings, the worst of which is the loss of good friends that became so after time and experiences together. Being in another ward or stake is like being in a different state. While I recognize the need, I usually wished I wasn't in the unit that got redistributed.

Does this kind of upheaval occur in areas where the church population is more dense? I remember living for a while in Springville UT where our ward was just 6 blocks in area.

That is where I am now.  There is a lot of growth in Utah Valley and shifting of population around SLC, so it is happening a lot.  I don't know if it happens much in stakes that are primarily well developed with little to no new building.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

The Mormon church is indeed unique in the way it is organized.  By having members assigned to a specific building attending church at a specific time, you get to know the community better.  Strong bonds are formed.  And when someone is missing, it is often noticed.  There is something else related to this.  Each building throughout the world teaches the same lesson in sunday school and other meetings.  I have attended church services all over the world.  When I have arrived, the members immediately recognize that I am new there and often make a special effort to welcome me and my family in.  When the lessons start, I already know what was discussed last week which gives background on what will be discuss in a ward I have never attended.  I remember attending a ward in Italy with my children a few years back.  When we got to our sunday class, the instructor recognized that we were Americans and even though they had missionaries there to translate, he asked how many in the class spoke English.  I think he already knew that most in that room spoke English because they attend the same class every week.  There were only two in the class that didn't speak English.  They offered to attend another class in the building so that the visitors could hear the lesson in English.  How welcoming and touching is that!  There is great value in being assigned a time and place to meet.  I think more religions should think about it.

Well said brother...

[bsjkki]

My bottom line:  I see absolute chaos if choosing a ward turns into a popularity contest.  Ward changes are very difficult and I moved into a "new"' ward after a boundary change and the youth program was decimated.  We struggled for 3 years before the ward was realigned and more youth came in.  Part of the problem was the surrounding wards had huge youth programs but would completely ignore the kids in the small ward which was also the less affluent ward. (Most of the youth from those years are now completely inactive.)  My sister was in a ward where they placed hall monitors during youth activities so the youth could not return or socialize with their old youth groups.  I think that is taking it too far.  If losing their friends causes so much anxiety in the youth, let them adjust slowly and give them time.  I know one family let their child attend their old ward but eventually they moved over to the new one on their own.  That is a much healthier way to let youth adjust to these changes which are difficult for adults and for teenagers are even more stressful.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

The Mormon church is indeed unique in the way it is organized.  By having members assigned to a specific building attending church at a specific time, you get to know the community better.  Strong bonds are formed.  And when someone is missing, it is often noticed.  There is something else related to this.  Each building throughout the world teaches the same lesson in sunday school and other meetings.  I have attended church services all over the world.  When I have arrived, the members immediately recognize that I am new there and often make a special effort to welcome me and my family in.  When the lessons start, I already know what was discussed last week which gives background on what will be discuss in a ward I have never attended.  I remember attending a ward in Italy with my children a few years back.  When we got to our sunday class, the instructor recognized that we were Americans and even though they had missionaries there to translate, he asked how many in the class spoke English.  I think he already knew that most in that room spoke English because they attend the same class every week.  There were only two in the class that didn't speak English.  They offered to attend another class in the building so that the visitors could hear the lesson in English.  How welcoming and touching is that!  There is great value in being assigned a time and place to meet.  I think more religions should think about it.

I became much more aware of this last fall when my neighbor died.  I really didn't do much for them - having them across the street it was simple and easy to do things. They remarked that I had done more for them than members of their own church, none of whom lived close. When I went to the funeral luncheon I could tell the family was loved, but the friends didn't know some of the needs just for the practical reason of being farther away than I was. The set up had always made sense to me,  but this was the first time I really saw the effects.  

Now obviously some wards are geographically larger than others, but it doesn't take much to see it is easier to grow closer if you see each other more because you are 2 minutes (or 1 hour) away from each other in a geographical boundary church verses 15 minutes (or 3 hours) away in a no boundary church.

[cinepro]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

And then there is the problem of depending on people for callings if people just show up where they want as well as never knowing how big of a bulding, how many teachers, etc. are needed.  

That's not really how it works.  Non-LDS tend to find a church family they feel comfortable with and stick with it.  They're not driving all over town each week attending different congregations willy-nilly. 

And in light of this, it's almost ironic for LDS.

[flameburns623]

Catholic parishes also more-or-less assign members within a geographical area to a specific parish and diocese. Vatican II changes make that policy often honored in the breach, but Catholics are supposed to attend and support their local parish and local diocese.

Whose boundaries can shift, although not dramatically nor often.

If you lived in an old Catholic city like St. Louis, you would know the heartbreak of generations-old parishes which falter and are closed because of the shifts in demographics.

An inner-city parish designed to seat hundreds has fewer than fifty mostly grey-headed members attending the two Masses held each Sunday (and about thirty at the Anticipatory Mass on Saturdays). 

The parishioners are mostly on fixed incomes and their offerings can't begin to pay the heating or cooling of the cavernous building. Nevermind upkeep and maintenance. 

There is wisdom in adjusting ward and stake boundaries. It may be happening too often, but it probably does need to occur.

I say this as someone who fell between the cracks during not just one, but two such adjustments. In the first case, I was a fairly active member, but shifting  work demands coincided with some significant changes in stakes and wards (because it was announced that St. Louis would be constructing it's temple).

Would my abrupt reversion to inactivity have gone unnoticed had my work needs not changed at just that time? I was just starting out in what would turn into a life's career for me-and I really wasn't planning on making it a career.

Might I have pursued different work opportunities if I had been more closely connected to the ward I had attended for four years prior?

In the second ward change: I was a less-active who had attended pretty regularly for several prior months. I fell thru the cracks again, and also due to changes in work demands. 

In both cases, I never saw home teachers. In fact, I never had contact with more than one or two HT'rs,  from about 1983 until my resignation in 2008, excluding one postcard and one empty envelope with "Address Correction Requested" on it. 

I note what someone said about home teaching averaging 3% to 5%. I wonder if it would help if the Church announced intentions to make changes several months in advance, and pushed all potentially-affected wards/stakes to step up home teaching to 25% particularly among less-active and inactive members?

And follow-up with a similarly intense emphasis after the changes are made, for at least several more months? 

In any case, I see the need for adjusting wards and stakes. I also see some of the problems they engender. 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

That's not really how it works.  Non-LDS tend to find a church family they feel comfortable with and stick with it.  They're not driving all over town each week attending different congregations willy-nilly. 

And in light of this, it's almost ironic for LDS.

I grew up going to non-denominational christian churches and we switched every 6 months.  As soon as the pastor said something my dad didn't like we were on to the next one.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I grew up going to non-denominational christian churches and we switched every 6 months.  As soon as the pastor said something my dad didn't like we were on to the next one.

Wow...was this fun or difficult for you?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

That's not really how it works.  Non-LDS tend to find a church family they feel comfortable with and stick with it.  They're not driving all over town each week attending different congregations willy-nilly. 

And in light of this, it's almost ironic for LDS.

Yes, I recognize that and assumed that it did not mean they are put on membership rolls and may get jobs within the congregation.  The original post I was responding to seemed to be suggesting a completely free form with no sense of commitment, you go to the ward you decide to go to as you are driving out kind of thing.  If he meant that people chose a ward by desire and then stuck with it until they moved to a different place, then I agree that will not be much of an issue.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Calm

[flameburns623]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I grew up going to non-denominational christian churches and we switched every 6 months.  As soon as the pastor said something my dad didn't like we were on to the next one.

Evangelicals have several things in play when selecting a church home. Geography is one factor: most prefer a neighborhood congregation if possible.

Then there is theology: if you're a Dispensational pre-tribber, you don't want part of an amillenial/covenantal ascribing congregation. Even if that particular local church affirms liberty in nonessential doctrines. There are often quibbles between members on some perpheral aspects of doctrine; but Evangelicals usually shun a high level of dissonance between their private opinions and what is taught from the pulpit and/or Sunday School lectern. 

Finally, there are aspects of service and social interaction involved. Are the congregants friendly or cliquish? Does the church offer ministries which appeal to you? If part of the reason you are looking around is because you feel a calling to serve--do such opportunities exist?

Church-hopping over mere taste, however, is looked down upon. Changing churches every six months is not common. Ev's usually bond almost as much as do LDS, and sometimes more so. 

[bsjkki]

35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Wow...was this fun or difficult for you?

It was a difficult dynamic in my family since my mom had converted (but not been baptized) into the Mormon faith.  I was aware of the conflict in religion between my parents. I attended a lot of church growing up but I think the christian church hopping made it more difficult to understand my dads faith.  My mormon church congregation remained stable throughout my childhood. (Even though I didn't exactly fit in there either.)  I was also aware of the many anti-mormon sentiments of the christian congregations because they were so public in their condemnation of mormons.  This was a huge turn-off for me.

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

It was a difficult dynamic in my family since my mom had converted (but not been baptized) into the Mormon faith.  I was aware of the conflict in religion between my parents. I attended a lot of church growing up but I think the christian church hopping made it more difficult to understand my dads faith.  My mormon church congregation remained stable throughout my childhood. (Even though I didn't exactly fit in there either.)  I was also aware of the many anti-mormon sentiments of the christian congregations because they were so public in their condemnation of mormons.  This was a huge turn-off for me.

Just to add:  My step-family is Catholic so I have been exposed to a lot different religious experiences in my life.

[HappyJackWagon]

These kinds of changes are a mixed bag; some good, some bad, sometimes necessary.

Sometimes these changes are necessary, and when they can be shown to be necessary I think they go well. People get on board with creating a new ward, starting fresh etc. But sometimes it feels like leaders are using the members as pawns on a chess board, trying to "grow" the stake by creating new wards, thus making the stake look successful.

I'm in a ward now that has been dramatically changed twice in the past 13 months. The second move somewhat corrected the mistakes of the first move, but it creates a transitory attitude in the ward where eventually no one wants to invest in creating something special because it will just be changed again in 6 months. And for what purpose? To claim "miraculous growth" when the actual numbers tell a different story. These last 2 changes have really soured my opinion as members who live 10 minutes from a building are now required to drive 50 minutes to get to their new ward.

Members should not be treated like pawns.

[6EQUJ5]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've sometimes questioned the popular but unofficial catch-phrase in the Cuurch "ward family". Is it really a family if it's just as apt as not to be disrupted tomorrow by realignments and divisions? Most people who relocate away from their wards do so without looking back. 

The real "family," it seems to me, is or ought to be the broader Curch membership. 

I hate to disagree with you, Scott.  But "ward family" is an official Church phrase:

June 2002 Ensign: "Singles in the Ward Family"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/06/singles-in-the-ward-family?lang=eng

March 1999 Liahona: "Belonging to a Ward Family" -- Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1999/03/belonging-to-a-ward-family?lang=eng

December 2005 Ensign: "Becoming a Ward Family"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/12/becoming-a-ward-family?lang=eng

There are plenty of other examples and we know that anything published by the Church is considered Church doctrine as it has passed both GA and Correlation approval.

"Ward Families" are fully sanctioned by the Church.

 

ETA: I don't know what kind of wards you have been in but our family stays in contact with former ward members from 2 decades ago.  We've even had occasion to have unofficial "ward reunions" when visiting friends.

Maybe leaving a ward behind without thought for former ward members must be a Utah thing?

Edited July 11, 2016 by 6EQUJ5

[rongo]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've sometimes questioned the popular but unofficial catch-phrase in the Cuurch "ward family". Is it really a family if it's just as apt as not to be disrupted tomorrow by realignments and divisions? Most people who relocate away from their wards do so without looking back. 

The real "family," it seems to me, is or ought to be the broader Curch membership. 

While wards are geographic, and not chosen, families we were raised in weren't chosen, either. Even if they were chosen in the pre-existence, we all, parents and children, are really brothers and sisters. Parents just got here before children, and are showing them the way (like senior companions on a mission). Ward members are "family" in a real sense as much as "family" is "family" --- but without the DNA exchange of the parents.

Each ward has a personality and character, every bit as real as individual families. The first ward I was a bishop of was newly-formed, and has a special place in many people's hearts (some have even seriously suggested having a ward reunion for "original" ward members ---- a major realignment of the wards in our stake has essentially shuffled the decks). My current ward was a pre-existent ward when we moved there, and it has a much different "feel" and personality than our previous ward. While our old ward has a special place in our hearts, our current ward is the most accepting and non-judging ward I have ever been in. Very simple, and humble. Last Saturday, many of us attended a live endowment session for a brother (he asked me to be his escort), and in the celestial room as we welcomed him, the thought "I love them as I love my family" actually went through my mind.

I've never actually heard anyone criticize or disparage the notion of a "ward family." 

Yeah, "ward family" is real. So real, that it isn't really wiped out by realignments and divisions. And, it is clear in talking to people who move into wards who was impacted by their previous wards. Many, many people carry that experience with them, and it becomes part of who they are.

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by rongo

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've sometimes questioned the popular but unofficial catch-phrase in the Cuurch "ward family". Is it really a family if it's just as apt as not to be disrupted tomorrow by realignments and divisions? Most people who relocate away from their wards do so without looking back. 

The real "family," it seems to me, is or ought to be the broader Curch membership. 

Absolutely

These are tests which allow ourselves to determine how much we are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ instead of being members of a social club.

We make covenants in the temple in sort of an abstract sense- "Sure I will help the gospel" is what goes through members minds when they make the covenant.

These kinds of changes test us where the rubber meets the road.   If we can't handle these little changes, what will we do in case there is the need for some huge change?

We are thinking about the pioneers around this time of year- would they be upset about ward changes and meeting in a different air-conditioned building with Saints they happen not to know?

Maybe they need a little reality therapy.  Make a wood pile in the parking lot, tell them to build their own handcarts, put their stuff in them and walk to the other building.

(just kidding of course...)

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I grew up going to non-denominational christian churches and we switched every 6 months.  As soon as the pastor said something my dad didn't like we were on to the next one.

So much for "One faith, one baptism".

I know many Evangelicals who preach that "Christians" are unified, but I see little evidence of that in practice.  I find it very ironic that they preach we are not "Christian" when there is so much division in what acceptable "Christianity" even is, or who could possibly even make any rules defining that.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My bottom line:  I see absolute chaos if choosing a ward turns into a popularity contest.  Ward changes are very difficult and I moved into a "new"' ward after a boundary change and the youth program was decimated.  We struggled for 3 years before the ward was realigned and more youth came in.  Part of the problem was the surrounding wards had huge youth programs but would completely ignore the kids in the small ward which was also the less affluent ward. (Most of the youth from those years are now completely inactive.)  My sister was in a ward where they placed hall monitors during youth activities so the youth could not return or socialize with their old youth groups.  I think that is taking it too far.  If losing their friends causes so much anxiety in the youth, let them adjust slowly and give them time.  I know one family let their child attend their old ward but eventually they moved over to the new one on their own.  That is a much healthier way to let youth adjust to these changes which are difficult for adults and for teenagers are even more stressful.

I agree, if,people just choose where they attend you will find with few and others overflowing. This can cause great divisions among congregations 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So much for "One faith, one baptism".

I know many Evangelicals who preach that "Christians" are unified, but I see little evidence of that in practice.  I find it very ironic that they preach we are not "Christian" when there is so much division in what acceptable "Christianity" even is, or who could possibly even make any rules defining that.

I have seen this as well, the Church I attended with my parents was a one room Church geared only to getting people to the altar. Nothing for young people. So the younger Pastors left MT. Zion to from "New Zion". For Sunday school I went with my sister to Atury Bapist thus splinting our family every Sunday. "One Church, one Baptisim" is nearly lost as a concept, if not completely. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

When we first got married 25 years ago we used to have 2 big things a year with DH's family. There were over 100 people that would attend,  but it wasn't long till we were down to just once a year and now just special occasions with just some of the people.  The family had just grown too much. When you get enough people you have to whittle down contact whether or is a ward family or related family because it would get overwhelming otherwise.

Even if you "whittle down contact" the larger extended family doesn't cease to be regarded as family. The so-called "ward family" is here today and gone tomorrow. 

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even if you "whittle down contact" the larger extended family doesn't cease to be regarded as family. The so-called "ward family" is here today and gone tomorrow. 

In your experience. In my experience my relationships have been pretty similar in both my extended family and ward families, both in terms of contact and lack of contact and strength of relationship. I've had sweet relationships within my last 3 wards over a 20 year time period that still exist today.  Haven't hit that point with my current ward yet though.  

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

The Mormon church is indeed unique in the way it is organized.  By having members assigned to a specific building attending church at a specific time, you get to know the community better.  Strong bonds are formed.  And when someone is missing, it is often noticed.  There is something else related to this.  Each building throughout the world teaches the same lesson in sunday school and other meetings.  I have attended church services all over the world.  When I have arrived, the members immediately recognize that I am new there and often make a special effort to welcome me and my family in.  When the lessons start, I already know what was discussed last week which gives background on what will be discuss in a ward I have never attended.  I remember attending a ward in Italy with my children a few years back.  When we got to our sunday class, the instructor recognized that we were Americans and even though they had missionaries there to translate, he asked how many in the class spoke English.  I think he already knew that most in that room spoke English because they attend the same class every week.  There were only two in the class that didn't speak English.  They offered to attend another class in the building so that the visitors could hear the lesson in English.  How welcoming and touching is that!  There is great value in being assigned a time and place to meet.  I think more religions should think about it.

(responded to wrong post)

Edited July 12, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I grew up going to non-denominational christian churches and we switched every 6 months.  As soon as the pastor said something my dad didn't like we were on to the next one.

Perhaps the LDS equivalent would be someone who just stops going.  Maybe with more variety and free choice among wards (and dare I say, competition?), there would be fewer inactive people.

[Okrahomer]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So much for "One faith, one baptism".

I know many Evangelicals who preach that "Christians" are unified, but I see little evidence of that in practice.  I find it very ironic that they preach we are not "Christian" when there is so much division in what acceptable "Christianity" even is, or who could possibly even make any rules defining that.

Over on the "Rainbow flag..." thread, Five Solas included a link to his church's website.  The website includes an interesting discussion about "dead or dying" evangelical congregations in Seattle and how it is basically impossible to revive such congregations.  There is an implicit invitation then to forget about your "dead or dying" congregation and come join the new and exciting one.  I guess this is known as "church planting" in EV parlance?  

Whatever it's called, it strikes me as a house of cards: What prevents the "church du jour" from becoming the "church d'hier"?  It seems like a popularity contest in which smaller EV congregations get swallowed-up by the latest iteration of the mega church.  Perhaps it works for some folks, but I prefer the orderly way it works under the tent of Zion.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I hate to disagree with you, Scott.  But "ward family" is an official Church phrase:

June 2002 Ensign: "Singles in the Ward Family"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/06/singles-in-the-ward-family?lang=eng

March 1999 Liahona: "Belonging to a Ward Family" -- Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1999/03/belonging-to-a-ward-family?lang=eng

December 2005 Ensign: "Becoming a Ward Family"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/12/becoming-a-ward-family?lang=eng

There are plenty of other examples and we know that anything published by the Church is considered Church doctrine as it has passed both GA and Correlation approval.

"Ward Families" are fully sanctioned by the Church.

 

ETA: I don't know what kind of wards you have been in but our family stays in contact with former ward members from 2 decades ago.  We've even had occasion to have unofficial "ward reunions" when visiting friends.

Maybe leaving a ward behind without thought for former ward members must be a Utah thing?

I stand corrected about the phrase being more or less officially recognized in the Church, but I still think the concept is problematic for reasons already stated. Our benevolence and feelings of love and kinship ought to extend to all members of the Church, not just those in the particular ward to which we belong.