ALarson Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, USU78 said: This way if he ends up in the first presidency, they're ahead of the "I hated him first" game No one is hating anyone here. It's a discussion about part of a talk Elder Holland just gave. I've seen some great insights given here too. . Edited May 3, 2016 by ALarson
Jeanne Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 32 minutes ago, USU78 said: We are now not quite a month into a 3rd 6-7 month bounceback to accommodate a new home build/purchase ... this time with 3 3-and-under plus a dog that digs up everything, including the 5 new trees we spent $2K on ... and a 3-year old who'll eat nothing but skittles and pop tarts. AAAAaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh! Wow...you need a bishop's warehouse full of skittles and pop tarts! That does sound overwhelming. I remember going to the grocery store years ago and going down the baby aisle and not having to buy anything for the first time....I thought hey..I am done with this! Yeah right.. Good luck with all your plans!
USU78 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Wow...you need a bishop's warehouse full of skittles and pop tarts! That does sound overwhelming. I remember going to the grocery store years ago and going down the baby aisle and not having to buy anything for the first time....I thought hey..I am done with this! Yeah right.. Good luck with all your plans! Our plans are never to have another bounceback after this one ... though my 25-year-old daughter, the only one of our 7 not to have bounced back, still has an open invite ... because we have to be fair ... dang it!
USU78 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 20 minutes ago, ALarson said: No one is hating anyone here. It's a discussion about part of a talk Elder Holland just gave. I've seen some great insights given here too. If you say so.
Jeanne Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think it to be extremely unfair for a human to have to be tied to a church like that, and give up so much of their time with family and friends, they aren't Priests as in Catholic church, with no wives or kids. I'd be tired and angry! I'd love to see one of them up and retire. I'll bet it's all a matter of just changing the rules, it's been done in the past, even doctrinal ones. Watching my elderly father trying to get from point A to point B, i can't imagine traveling all over the place the way they do. I think it would be nice to reach the age of 70 and have an option. Whether I agree with a lot of the apostles or not, they certainly have done their duty and time in service to their church.
Jeanne Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: Our plans are never to have another bounceback after this one ... though my 25-year-old daughter, the only one of our 7 not to have bounced back, still has an open invite ... because we have to be fair ... dang it! I hear you, I do. It is what parents call being between a rock and a hard place.
JAHS Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 34 minutes ago, ALarson said: But would he (Nelson) still be the senior Apostle if he had chosen to retire and go on emeritus status? I'm just wondering this too. What if they had a choice? (I know they don't, so this is a "what if?") . He would still be senior apostle since one cannot be unordained from being an Apostle (except for excommunication). The Apostles are not forced to do more than they can physically do. If their health is suffering they simply cut back on their activities. 2
ALarson Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 41 minutes ago, JAHS said: He would still be senior apostle since one cannot be unordained from being an Apostle (except for excommunication). The Apostles are not forced to do more than they can physically do. If their health is suffering they simply cut back on their activities. Thanks (and yes, I knew they are not "forced" to do anything they are not able to do!).
Robert F. Smith Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 5 hours ago, Thinking said: It doesn't even make sense that an omnipotent being could be tired. It seems that such a being would have unlimited patience and strength to help His children navigate through their trials. God is finite, not omnipotent. A God who weeps might very well grow tired of the nonsense which He must deal with on a regular basis. Why, just look at this board, and a thousand like it !! Does the idiocy never end? 2
JAHS Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 14 minutes ago, ALarson said: Thanks (and yes, I knew they are not "forced" to do anything they are not able to do!). I knew you probably knew that, but there are many church critics who claim that the older general authorities are being manhandled and forced to keep working when they should be retired. "Why don't they let those poor old men retire and live what's left of their lives in peace? It 's elder abuse!" etc. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, ALarson said: But would he (Nelson) still be the senior Apostle if he had chosen to retire and go on emeritus status? I'm just wondering this too. What if they had a choice? (I know they don't, so this is a "what if?"). Seniority is malleable. Brigham took away Orson Pratt's seniority, thus preventing him from becoming Church President. Sure, an apostle could retire. It might be unusual, but it could be done without church members becoming hysterical. 1
JLHPROF Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 hours ago, ALarson said: But would he (Nelson) still be the senior Apostle if he had chosen to retire and go on emeritus status? I'm just wondering this too. What if they had a choice? (I know they don't, so this is a "what if?") That's up to God. God doesn't send a revelation and you get to say, sorry God, I'm retired. The Apostleship is a priesthood office, not a Church calling. 2
Danzo Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 5 hours ago, Nevo said: No, it does fit. Elder Holland is was relating a story from the NT: Thanks for the context
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted May 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) Nevo clearly pointed out on page 1 of this thread (and in fact in the 8th post) that this entire discussion is based on a complete misreading, and here we are, two-plus additional pages later earnestly discussing whether God is ever tired of us and psychoanalysing if this really just means that Elder Holland and the other apostles are tired of their priesthood offices and secretly want to retire. I think I may finally be grasping what 'patty cake taffy pulling' means... Edited May 4, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 7
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted May 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nevo clearly pointed out on page 1 of this thread (and in fact in the 8th post) that this entire discussion is based on a complete misreading, and here we are, two-plus additional pages later earnestly discussing whether God is ever tired of us and psychoanalysing if this really just means that Elder Holland and the other apostles are tired of their priesthood offices and secretly want to retire. I think I may finally be grasping what 'patty cake taffy pulling' means... Indeed. These threads are becoming so pervasive, perhaps a separate "Pat-a-Cake/Taffy Pull" forum could be established on the board, where those driven to apoplexy by Elder Holland's latest commentary could indulge in unrestrained venting of their mutual indignation. Edited May 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 6
Teancum Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: God is finite, not omnipotent. A God who weeps might very well grow tired of the nonsense which He must deal with on a regular basis. Why, just look at this board, and a thousand like it !! Does the idiocy never end? How do you know God is finite?
Popular Post Bobbieaware Posted May 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nevo clearly pointed out on page 1 of this thread (and in fact in the 8th post) that this entire discussion is based on a complete misreading, and here we are, two-plus additional pages later earnestly discussing whether God is ever tired of us and psychoanalysing if this really just means that Elder Holland and the other apostles are tired of their priesthood offices and secretly want to retire. I think I may finally be grasping what 'patty cake taffy pulling' means... This fact that this thread started out as a hasty misreading of more of Elder Holland's words indicates to me that some on this board want so badly to find fault with the leaders of the Church that they will seize on just about anything they can find that will serve their purposes, and do so without any attempt at evenhandedness or studying the issue out to be sure they are justified in their complaint before pushing "submit." 5
Robert F. Smith Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, Teancum said: How do you know God is finite? I don't know much of anything. However, Mormon theology makes Him finite and a part of nature, and there are certain logical consequences of that status. 2
ALarson Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: That's up to God. God doesn't send a revelation and you get to say, sorry God, I'm retired. The Apostleship is a priesthood office, not a Church calling. Of course I understand that, I was just asking where we have written or recorded that this office is to be a life time of active service rather than some lifetime priesthood offices (Seventy, Patriarch, etc.) where these men serving go onto emeritus status. It's not a big deal to me, I was just asking the question. . Edited May 4, 2016 by ALarson
Gray Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: God is finite, not omnipotent. A God who weeps might very well grow tired of the nonsense which He must deal with on a regular basis. Why, just look at this board, and a thousand like it !! Does the idiocy never end? I think what you say fits well with foundational LDS theology, and is logically sound, but the message from church leadership seems to present a more traditionally Christian view of God - they're saying He is omnipotent and omniscient: https://www.lds.org/topics/christians?lang=eng Quote Latter-day Saints believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, and they pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. Edited May 4, 2016 by Gray
stemelbow Posted May 4, 2016 Author Posted May 4, 2016 18 hours ago, Nevo said: But Elder Holland isn't talking about Heavenly Father here. He's talking about the mortal Jesus. Who did get tired and hungry and all of that. He's talking about both. He asks if we ever consider that God is tired of us and then uses Jesus' mortal example to explain that. It seems he's suggesting since Jesus God tired as a mortal, with all the problems he faced, that God Himself is tired of us. At least that's the way it came off to my wife and I. Quote But Christ is tired. Does it ever, does it ever dawn on you, does it ever dawn on me, does it ever dawn on anybody that God might be tired? Or that Christ might be tired? That's not just asking if we ever think Christ got tired when mortal. If feels like He's saying we're wearing out God the Father to me. if we are, that'd be terrible, of course. But if God doesnt' wear out because He is immortal and all that, then I'm not sure the point of this, at all. Can someone shed the light? 1
stemelbow Posted May 4, 2016 Author Posted May 4, 2016 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I don't know much of anything. However, Mormon theology makes Him finite and a part of nature, and there are certain logical consequences of that status. Are we suggesting then that God does tire out? That his immortal exalted body wears down? If so, what eternal effect does that have? Does He retire at some point because He can't keep going? If we're wearing HIm out and we should be concerned of that, why did He have billions of children, perhaps 100 billion? Why not just keep it smaller so He doesn't resent us for wearing Him down? This whole concept is just foreign to me. I thought we were to go to God for everything, at least that's what's been said in the past. We should even have a prayer in heart directed to HIm constantly. Considering only a very few, relatively speaking, do anything near that, what did He expect if we're wearing Him out?
stemelbow Posted May 4, 2016 Author Posted May 4, 2016 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nevo clearly pointed out on page 1 of this thread (and in fact in the 8th post) that this entire discussion is based on a complete misreading, and here we are, two-plus additional pages later earnestly discussing whether God is ever tired of us and psychoanalysing if this really just means that Elder Holland and the other apostles are tired of their priesthood offices and secretly want to retire. I think I may finally be grasping what 'patty cake taffy pulling' means... I question whether Nevo resolved this. Nevo seemed to indicate that Elder HOlland wanted to point out that Christ was tired as a mortal, but Holland clearly asked if we ever consider that God get's tired like Christ did. It seems Nevo was suggesting that this was squarely concerned about Christ's mortal life and He was tired. But Elder Holland asks, "But Christ is tired. Does it ever, does it ever dawn on you, does it ever dawn on me, does it ever dawn on anybody that God might be tired? Or that Christ might be tired?" That's not asking if we ever considered that Christ was tired as a mortal, but that He's tired and God the Father are tired now, or get tired now. Let's discuss. I'm willing to listen and come around, but I need to be convinced not dismissed.
stemelbow Posted May 4, 2016 Author Posted May 4, 2016 8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: This fact that this thread started out as a hasty misreading of more of Elder Holland's words indicates to me that some on this board want so badly to find fault with the leaders of the Church that they will seize on just about anything they can find that will serve their purposes, and do so without any attempt at evenhandedness or studying the issue out to be sure they are justified in their complaint before pushing "submit." Sheesh. We can discuss. If we have a problem with what someone says, then point out the issue, stop complaining about the individual. Tha'ts all I'm trying to do with what Elder HOlland said. I have nothing against him. I don't think anyone has explained my misreading to the point of resolution. If I've misread I misread. But it seems to me Nevo is not addressing my concern. he only suggested that Elder HOlland is speaking about Christ's mortal life. He clearly is not. He clearly is asking if in the present God and Christ are tired, no?
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