Elder Holland, Part II

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think Nevo's post explains the storm thing pretty well. I wasn't sure what he meant either until I saw it in full context. 

Thanks!  I admit I haven't read through all of the posts here, but I will now  

[JAHS]

29 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not entirely,  but yes please try give him a break every now and then unless you're really really really sure you can't solve your own problems yourselves with what he has already taught you.

Basically just try to be the kind of children you'd  like your own children to me when they have a problem and you've already taught them how to work through it or endure it.

 

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Tired, huh.

Oh my heck..both kids in their 30's still living with me ...I am so.o.o.tired!!  Love them to death..but I want my bedroom back!

[flameburns623]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seriously?

Another thread dedicated to bashing Elder Holland?

Sheesh! This is getting tiresome.

 

Do you happen to know a good blacksmith? Or an old-time barber?

I'm gonna need some teeth pulled.

The old-fashioned way.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 

Yep,  every moment of every day, I reckon.

Being a Father is 24/7 and he will never stop having more children. 

Makes me tired just trying to imagine it.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I found that section to be quite disappointing as well.  Elder Holland sounded like the tired one to me. I think he was expressing his personal journey in that section.  

I actually feel bad for the guy, and for all the Apostles.  They should have emeritus status.  They should be able to spend the sunset years of their lives with their families, not in these demanding roles.  Sure its an ego boost, and they enjoy a celebrity status of sorts, but I'm sure it can be exhausting.  

I imagine deep down..they just want to be a grandpa.  Relax and enjoy..and no matter what kind of status ..I wonder if they would rather be one of us.

[stemelbow]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seriously?

Another thread dedicated to bashing Elder Holland?

Sheesh! This is getting tiresome.

 

Scott, no one's bashing him.  is it not fair to discuss his ideas, and even disagree with them? 

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Do you happen to know a good blacksmith? Or an old-time barber?

I'm gonna need some teeth pulled.

The old-fashioned way.

On a purely unrelated note, since you live near St. Louis, I wonder if you know my former mission president Richard Oscarson. His brother, Paul (also my former mission president), is married to Bonnie, current Young Women general president. The Oscarsons are St. Louis natives and very well known among the good saints there in the area.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I imagine deep down..they just want to be a grandpa.  Relax and enjoy..and no matter what kind of status ..I wonder if they would rather be one of us.

The same exact thought came to me when I read this part.  I thought "I'll bet sometimes he'd just love to be retired and be with his grandkids!"

I can only imagine how tiring his schedule is.  Who wouldn't be tired?  

[flameburns623]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

On a purely unrelated note, since you live near St. Louis, I wonder if you know my former mission president **** Oscarson. His brother, Paul (also my former mission president), is married to Bonnie, current Young Women general president. The Oscarsons are St. Louis natives and very well known among the good saints there in the area.

I have beard the name. I think associated with the St. Louis Temple. Perhaps with the Mission. 

[hope_for_things]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I imagine deep down..they just want to be a grandpa.  Relax and enjoy..and no matter what kind of status ..I wonder if they would rather be one of us.

How cool would it be to just have one of them up and retire.  Just come out in public and say they are done being an Apostle, that they feel God has released them from the calling and they are going to spend the rest of their life enjoying family and relaxing.  How courageous considering the peer pressure to "endure to the end".  I would applaud that for sure.  

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

How cool would it be to just have one of them up and retire.  Just come out in public and say they are done being an Apostle, that they feel God has released them from the calling and they are going to spend the rest of their life enjoying family and relaxing.  How courageous considering the peer pressure to "endure to the end".  I would applaud that for sure.  

Has any Apostle retired in all the history of the church?  Where is it recorded that they must serve their entire life once they're called?

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

I have beard the name. I think associated with the St. Louis Temple. Perhaps with the Mission. 

Richard did serve as the president of the St. Louis Temple for a time, and his wife Linda was matron. Interestingly, at the same time, Paul and Bonnie were president and matron of the Stockholm Sweden Temple. Sweden was where both of the brothers simultaneously served as mission presidents.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Has any Apostle retired in all the history of the church?  Where is it recorded that they must serve their entire life once they're called?

I think the only time one hasn't served until death is in the early church when some apostasized, didn't they?

In the scriptures apostle is a life calling so maybe that's where it comes from. 

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Has any Apostle retired in all the history of the church?  Where is it recorded that they must serve their entire life once they're called?

That is a question I would like to know the official answer to, too.

[JLHPROF]

Pretty sure that we are told that we can "weary God" with our prayers.  Elder Holland may just have been extending the thought:

Isaiah 40: 28 ¶ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

but

Isaiah 43:  24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

2 Nephi 17:13 And he said: Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

"Weary the Lord Until He blesses you" - Joseph Smith

[JulieM]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In the scriptures apostle is a life calling so maybe that's where it comes from. 

But aren't other callings for life too and those men are given emeritus status (Patriarchs, Seventies and so on)?

I honestly believe members would love to see some of these older Apostle have emeritus status (and some have been very sick and still serving, it's like a full time job for them, I would think).  

But there must be a reason this calling is different and for life.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But aren't other callings for life too and those men are given emeritus status (Patriarchs, Seventies and so on)?

I honestly believe members would love to see some of these older Apostle have emeritus status (and some have been very sick and still serving, it's like a full time job for them, I would think).  

But there must be a reason this calling is different and for life.

Could be. I really have no idea. Hopefully someone shows up who does!

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But aren't other callings for life too and those men are given emeritus status (Patriarchs, Seventies and so on)?

I honestly believe members would love to see some of these older Apostle have emeritus status (and some have been very sick and still serving, it's like a full time job for them, I would think).  

But there must be a reason this calling is different and for life.

Depends on how we understand the "Apostleship".

One can retire from a calling in the Church, but if the senior worthy living Apostle is always God's chosen mouthpiece, I don't see that retirement is much of an option.
If President Monson dies tomorrow, President Nelson becomes the head according to God's standards.  A change in Church policy that allowed President Nelson to be designated emeritus wouldn't necessarily mean the Lord would bypass him as president in the event of President Monson's passing.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Has any Apostle retired in all the history of the church?  Where is it recorded that they must serve their entire life once they're called?

Once you are ordained an Apostle you retain that office for life. The question I think you mean to ask is; has an Apostle ever retired from being a member of the quorum of the twelve?  I don't know of any that have retired or have gotten emeritus status. A few, like Richard R. Lyman, were excommunicated from the church.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Oh my heck..both kids in their 30's still living with me ...I am so.o.o.tired!!  Love them to death..but I want my bedroom back!

We are now not quite a month into a 3rd 6-7 month bounceback to accommodate a new home build/purchase ...  this time with 3 3-and-under plus a dog that digs up everything, including the 5 new trees we spent $2K on  ...  and a 3-year old who'll eat nothing but skittles and pop tarts.  AAAAaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!

[USU78]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seriously?

Another thread dedicated to bashing Elder Holland?

Sheesh! This is getting tiresome.

 

This way if he ends up in the first presidency, they're ahead of the "I hated him first" game  ...  and if he "merely" wallows in apostlehood, they're ahead of the "we need another Elder Packer to misquote and beat up on as a misogynistic, homophobic, violence-promoting bugaboo" game.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Has any Apostle retired in all the history of the church?  Where is it recorded that they must serve their entire life once they're called?

 According to historical records the only Apostle who "retired" was Amasa M. Lyman who retired from the First Presidency when Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

How cool would it be to just have one of them up and retire.  Just come out in public and say they are done being an Apostle, that they feel God has released them from the calling and they are going to spend the rest of their life enjoying family and relaxing.  How courageous considering the peer pressure to "endure to the end".  I would applaud that for sure.  

I think it to be extremely unfair for a human to have to be tied to a church like that, and give up so much of their time with family and friends, they aren't Priests as in Catholic church, with no wives or kids.  

I'd be tired and angry!  I'd love to see one of them up and retire.  I'll bet it's all a matter of just changing the rules, it's been done in the past, even doctrinal ones.  

 

[ALarson]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Depends on how we understand the "Apostleship".

One can retire from a calling in the Church, but if the senior worthy living Apostle is always God's chosen mouthpiece, I don't see that retirement is much of an option.
If President Monson dies tomorrow, President Nelson becomes the head according to God's standards.  A change in Church policy that allowed President Nelson to be designated emeritus wouldn't necessarily mean the Lord would bypass him as president in the event of President Monson's passing.

But would he (Nelson) still be the senior Apostle if he had chosen to retire and go on emeritus status?  I'm just wondering this too.  What if they had a choice?  (I know they don't, so this is a "what if?")

.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ALarson