Faith is the Answer to Everything (Like it or Not)

[Mystery Meat]

Faith. It is a simple concept. I think it is also simultaneously the most demanding and challenging principal to not only understand, but to put into active practice.

 

I believe, that within Mormon culture there has long been a tendency to make declarations of surety. The purpose of such declarations are probably varied and not important to this discussion. But one thing that I believe has happened as a result is that such declarations act, at times at least, as shields meant to protect us from the effects of having to exercise faith. Make no mistake there are people who can bare testimony and declare, “I know” and be completely accurate in their declaration. There are some aspects of my testimony that have move beyond mere belief and into the realm of knowledge. But faith is an uncomfortable place for us as mortals and natural men. The natural man craves the safety of surety. Yet, I believe (and the Spirit seems to agree) that in order for a man to grow and increase in his righteousness and spiritual strength such a man must exercise faith; such a man must take steps when there are questions unanswered, information to be ascertained, and even evidence that contradicts the object of his faith. Trying to obtain knowledge of things spiritual or divine without exercising faith, then, would be like trying to solve the mysteries of deep space without a powerful telescope or the complexities of molecular biology without a microscope. Just like those instruments increase our vision and strength, so to does faith increase our vision and strength to see into a divine realm.

 

Yes, not only can a man exercise faith in face of unanswered questions, but that is EXACTLY when he must. There is no getting around this uncomfortable and inconvenient truth. Additionally, there is no faith when there is doubt. As recently discussed here, there may be a question as to whether it will snow tomorrow, but if a responder replies with, “I doubt it”, such responder cannot reasonably also say, “I believe it will.” Doubt is to faith, what poison is to an otherwise healthy plant. Therefore, doubt your doubts.

 

Sadly, I have seen some question the advisability of faith when it comes to obtaining knowledge. When it comes to spiritual knowledge, there is no other way. Those who doubt the truth claims of the Church (even for rational reasons) cannot disprove the truth claims with any tangible evidence. In fact, the great irony in this quest for truth is that once many members learn puzzling things that prompt questions and force them from their comfortable (yet ultimately deceptive) cocoon of surety, they are still left without any surety of the truth claims of the Church. Sadly, many of them then move from one self-created and false place of surety to another; from one black and white world to another. Thus we see that they do everything they can to avoid faith. They want sure knowledge and they want it now.

 

Without faith and the time (and trial) it takes to cultivate it, there will be no surety. At least not when it comes to things of a spiritual nature. And so, I say to those looking for answers, if you want spiritual truth, you cannot and will not find out without a proper exercise of the first principle of the gospel. Accept the fact that you won't have a sure knowledge presently (and that you cannot using any other means) and embrace the hope that through an exercise of faith, your faith will grow into a wellspring of knowledge.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[ttribe]

[/messageboard]

[Mystery Meat]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

[/messageboard]

I agree. Let's all go home. Calm, please turn out the lights and lockup when you leave.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I agree. Let's all go home. Calm, please turn out the lights and lockup when you leave.

Well no..I agree with ttribe.

[mfbukowski]

The traditional definition of knowledge used to be knowledge of things as they are.

The problem is we can only know things as we know them. As humans we only know how things appear to us.

This obvious fact has led to a change in the definition of the word knowledge. Now,  saying "I know" means nothing more than "I am certain" yet those beliefs about which we are certain may change rather quickly.

We can have certainty about a scientific theory and then suddenly the theory changes.

At some point we need to acknowledge that we live by faith even in matters about which we may now be certain. We try out a principal and see if it works for us and whatever the objective is for that principle. Hammers work for hammering but in a pinch a screwdriver might work just as well. On the other hand hammers make terrible screwdrivers. We always need to look at the context and see what works best with in that particular context.

 

[CA Steve]

On a personal level it can be the answer for everything, on a global level it seems to be an answer for anything. How else can we explain the multitude of beliefs?

Edited April 22, 2016 by CA Steve

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

I agree. Let's all go home. Calm, please turn out the lights and lockup when you leave.

Why does she get to be the last one to leave? 

[Ahab]

The messenger in the OP gave me the impression that he doesn't know what faith really is.

And yes, I am giving him the credit/ blame for the impression he gave me.

He speaks as if faith and surety are 2 different things, whereas I know or at least I feel pretty sure that faith and surety are the same exact things,  although 2 different words are being used to refer to what it is.

As Hebrews 11:1 indicates, faith is the assurance of things that are hoped, some of the evidence of things that are true.  Paul and Joseph Smith were referring to the kind of faith that is given as a gift by God when they wrote/ translated/ or dictated those words to be written, but still any faith at it's core is based on an assurance of things that are hoped for.  The feeling of surety that something that is or was once hoped for is true.  Even when someone is wrong about what they are sure about.

So faith is simply to be sure about something, even when whatever someone is sure about is not true. I am very sure that that is what faith really is. . And I not only hope that I am right, but I am also sure that I am right about what I am saying.  I give you my assurance/ surety/faith that faith is to be sure about whatever someone is saying they have faith in.

[Mystery Meat]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

The messenger in the OP gave me the impression that he doesn't know what faith really is.

And yes, I am giving him the credit/ blame for the impression he gave me.

He speaks as if faith and surety are 2 different things, whereas I know or at least I feel pretty sure that faith and surety are the same exact things,  although 2 different words are being used to refer to what it is.

As Hebrews 11:1 indicates, faith is the assurance of things that are hoped, some of the evidence of things that are true.  Paul and Joseph Smith were referring to the kind of faith that is given as a gift by God when they wrote/ translated/ or dictated those words to be written, but still any faith at it's core is based on an assurance of things that are hoped for.  The feeling of surety that something that is or was once hoped for is true.  Even when someone is wrong about what they are sure about.

So faith is simply to be sure about something, even when whatever someone is sure about is not true. I am very sure that that is what faith really is. . And I not only hope that I am right, but I am also sure that I am right about what I am saying.  I give you my assurance/ surety/faith that faith is to be sure about whatever someone is saying they have faith in.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I am not sure about what you had in mind when using this smiley, but it doesn't look to me like a very happy smiley

So I'm guessing you will probably not be saying "Thank you for that and I agree" anytime soon.

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Why does she get to be the last one to leave? 

She doesn't know that I already turned out the lights...

[consiglieri]

6 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

 Additionally, there is no faith when there is doubt.

 

This is a common misperception.

In actuality, there can be no faith without doubt.

They are two sides of the same coin.

Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.--Voltaire
 

[Boanerges]

6 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is a common misperception.

In actuality, there can be no faith without doubt.

They are two sides of the same coin.

Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.--Voltaire
 

I'd give you a rep point of I could. I agree. I will add that there's nothing wrong with hope.

[Ahab]

53 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is a common misperception.

In actuality, there can be no faith without doubt.

They are two sides of the same coin.

Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.--Voltaire
 

Two sides of the same coin but on opposite sides and you can choose only one side of the coin at a time for each choice.

If you choose to doubt you can't be sure on that issue at the same time, and if you choose to be sure/ accept an assurance then you can't choose to doubt at the same time.

You're either sure about something or you're not, and you either doubt something or you don't,  when breaking something down to it's most basic level. 

I'm sure you already understood this so I do not doubt that you don't. 

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Ahab

[Rivers]

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

The messenger in the OP gave me the impression that he doesn't know what faith really is.

And yes, I am giving him the credit/ blame for the impression he gave me.

He speaks as if faith and surety are 2 different things, whereas I know or at least I feel pretty sure that faith and surety are the same exact things,  although 2 different words are being used to refer to what it is.

As Hebrews 11:1 indicates, faith is the assurance of things that are hoped, some of the evidence of things that are true.  Paul and Joseph Smith were referring to the kind of faith that is given as a gift by God when they wrote/ translated/ or dictated those words to be written, but still any faith at it's core is based on an assurance of things that are hoped for.  The feeling of surety that something that is or was once hoped for is true.  Even when someone is wrong about what they are sure about.

So faith is simply to be sure about something, even when whatever someone is sure about is not true. I am very sure that that is what faith really is. . And I not only hope that I am right, but I am also sure that I am right about what I am saying.  I give you my assurance/ surety/faith that faith is to be sure about whatever someone is saying they have faith in.

If faith and surety are the same thing, then can faith be a choice?  It is my understanding that surety and knowledge are things we are compelled to have while faith is a choice.

[consiglieri]

14 hours ago, Ahab said:

Two sides of the same coin but on opposite sides and you can choose only one side of the coin at a time for each choice.

If you choose to doubt you can't be sure on that issue at the same time, and if you choose to be sure/ accept an assurance then you can't choose to doubt at the same time.

You're either sure about something or you're not, and you either doubt something or you don't,  when breaking something down to it's most basic level. 

I'm sure you already understood this so I do not doubt that you don't. 

 

To have doubt is to not be sure.

To have faith is to not be sure.

Hence one cannot have faith without doubt.

[Bobbieaware]

10 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

To have doubt is to not be sure.

To have faith is to not be sure.

Hence one cannot have faith without doubt.

There are different degrees of faith. The greatest degree of faith which one can obtain while in mortality (the degree of faith necessary to obtain before one can receive the Second Comforter) is called unshakable faith. And as one can see by the fruits of such unshakable faith, for all intents and purposes it is tantamount to having a sure knowledge.

6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea. (Jacob 4)

 

[omni]

On April 22, 2016 at 0:43 PM, Mystery Meat said:

Faith. It is a simple concept. I think it is also simultaneously the most demanding and challenging principal to not only understand, but to put into active practice.

 

I believe, that within Mormon culture there has long been a tendency to make declarations of surety. The purpose of such declarations are probably varied and not important to this discussion. But one thing that I believe has happened as a result is that such declarations act, at times at least, as shields meant to protect us from the effects of having to exercise faith. Make no mistake there are people who can bare testimony and declare, “I know” and be completely accurate in their declaration. There are some aspects of my testimony that have move beyond mere belief and into the realm of knowledge. But faith is an uncomfortable place for us as mortals and natural men. The natural man craves the safety of surety. Yet, I believe (and the Spirit seems to agree) that in order for a man to grow and increase in his righteousness and spiritual strength such a man must exercise faith; such a man must take steps when there are questions unanswered, information to be ascertained, and even evidence that contradicts the object of his faith. Trying to obtain knowledge of things spiritual or divine without exercising faith, then, would be like trying to solve the mysteries of deep space without a powerful telescope or the complexities of molecular biology without a microscope. Just like those instruments increase our vision and strength, so to does faith increase our vision and strength to see into a divine realm.

 

Yes, not only can a man exercise faith in face of unanswered questions, but that is EXACTLY when he must. There is no getting around this uncomfortable and inconvenient truth. Additionally, there is no faith when there is doubt. As recently discussed here, there may be a question as to whether it will snow tomorrow, but if a responder replies with, “I doubt it”, such responder cannot reasonably also say, “I believe it will.” Doubt is to faith, what poison is to an otherwise healthy plant. Therefore, doubt your doubts.

 

Sadly, I have seen some question the advisability of faith when it comes to obtaining knowledge. When it comes to spiritual knowledge, there is no other way. Those who doubt the truth claims of the Church (even for rational reasons) cannot disprove the truth claims with any tangible evidence. In fact, the great irony in this quest for truth is that once many members learn puzzling things that prompt questions and force them from their comfortable (yet ultimately deceptive) cocoon of surety, they are still left without any surety of the truth claims of the Church. Sadly, many of them then move from one self-created and false place of surety to another; from one black and white world to another. Thus we see that they do everything they can to avoid faith. They want sure knowledge and they want it now.

 

Without faith and the time (and trial) it takes to cultivate it, there will be no surety. At least not when it comes to things of a spiritual nature. And so, I say to those looking for answers, if you want spiritual truth, you cannot and will not find out without a proper exercise of the first principle of the gospel. Accept the fact that you won't have a sure knowledge presently (and that you cannot using any other means) and embrace the hope that through an exercise of faith, your faith will grow into a wellspring of knowledge.

 

What if you had a friend who was Catholic (or any other religion) and this friend began investigating the LDS Church.  After meeting with the missionaries, your friend started to doubt the the true claims of the Catholic Church and began to seriously consider getting baptized.  Would you then recommend this friend doubt his doubts and exercise faith in his prior beliefs?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, omni said:

What if you had a friend who was Catholic (or any other religion) and this friend began investigating the LDS Church.  After meeting with the missionaries, your friend started to doubt the the true claims of the Catholic Church and began to seriously consider getting baptized.  Would you then recommend this friend doubt his doubts and exercise faith in his prior beliefs?

Of course not, we should just say join the LDS church, we just add onto your beliefs!

Edited April 23, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

Years ago when I was first working in the bakery, we had a summer hire, I believe this was 2009. Anyway, he was a young kid and we doing some cleaning up and dishes together so we had a chance to have a nice visit and get to know eachother.  One discussion led to another and he began telling me how his parents had kicked him out..I gave him great empathy because I then told him I had family that had also disowned me.  We further discovered that his family had kicked him out for leaving the catholic religion for mormonism.  I then shared that I had left the mormon church and was not family to many.   We looked at eachother and smiled ..and then we both got tears in our eyes and hugged.  I will never forget this moment and his smile and understanding.  We will always be friends.

[Calm]

On April 22, 28 Heisei at 10:48 AM, Mystery Meat said:

I agree. Let's all go home. Calm, please turn out the lights and lockup when you leave.

You know I will be the last one hanging out here when the end does come, lol.

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, omni said:

What if you had a friend who was Catholic (or any other religion) and this friend began investigating the LDS Church.  After meeting with the missionaries, your friend started to doubt the the true claims of the Catholic Church and began to seriously consider getting baptized.  Would you then recommend this friend doubt his doubts and exercise faith in his prior beliefs?

I would tell this person to seek an answer from God via the Holy Ghost.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, consiglieri said:

To have doubt is to not be sure.

To have faith is to not be sure.

Hence one cannot have faith without doubt.

No, to have faith is to be sure. Not necessarily 100% sure, but still sure. 

But yes you are half right. To have doubt is to not be sure about that particular thing, while still allowing for being sure about some other thing.

We all have a combination of both faith and doubt on different things.  Like I'm sure that God lives but doubt that I'll see him in the next 3 minutes.