Jeremy Runnells Excommunicated

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My 29-1/2 year old handicapped adopted son, whose brain was pickled by his feckless birth mother's drug and alcohol abuse, has cost me health and treasure and countless hours of sorrow.

Oh  ...  wait a minute, it's ridiculous for me to claim victimhood by proxy or to besaint the handicapped in order to win an argument by making you feel sorry for me.

You, Jeanne, are just as capable of adult behavior and logical analysis as I.  Accordingly, for purposes of our conversation, I do not care that you do not hear well or at all.

Your good heart, I fear, betrays you, however:  "communication on what would affect the rest of his life" presupposes Runnells had any interest in remaining in the Church during the process of the recognition over the last 8-or-so months by the SP and his counselors and the Council that Runnells had already left the Church.  He did not.  He's made that clear.  And he's used the process to seek to damage the Church, which wins him no points in my ledger.  You seek to see such good in him as may still remain, and for this you are to be lauded.

But to blame the Church for his lot which results from his choices is not, IMNSHO, the best use of the best your heart has to offer.

I seek the good in everyone.  And in you..and my heart breaks for your adopted son.  I think the difference between you and I is that I do care, 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Jeanne

[Johnnie Cake]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

he did it to himself, he requested something he clearly didn't need as shown by two videos and that's Duncan with a capital D

Your vote has been noted...

Edited April 18, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Media whores are rarely truly victims.

Why do you care if he is truly one of the rare birds?  How's that skin off your nose?

Speechless...If I said something like this I'd get banned from MD&D...just saying

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

In our discussion of the givens movement (MFB sealed the deal of this being a movement)

Call for references, please.

I never heard of a "Givens movement" or anything like it. And when I pointed that out to you, you intentionally misrepresented me as saying there was a "Givens underground" or something. So I'm not inclined to trust your unsupported claims of what your opponents are saying.

 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

I don't need to know. He has cochlear implants and is legally deaf.

How many children go to the temple, SR? The weekly meetings that all members can attend are the problem. I've volunteered to take care of a severely autistic child during classes so his parents could teach. What has been your experience with special needs?  My partially paralyzed father in a wheelchair lived with me for a few years. There was no place in the chapel for a wheelchair, he had to sit in the aisle or in the overflow section with movable chairs where he had even less chance of seeing or hearing. Have you had to deal with this week in and week out? Are there "ward workers" assigned to bend over backwards like there is in the temple? Why not? We have wonderful parking and access to buildings, just limited to no accommodations once they are inside.

I understand how difficult if not impossible fixing this would be. There does need to be a degree of knowledge of each individual need that would be hard to come by.  It is unfair to expect random teachers to successfully "mainstream" children with severe problems. But I have heard comments much like these here which leads me to wonder if our inability to accommodate is producing some unwilling and uncharitable hearts who then think people in need don't need to be provided equal access.

This seems like a fairly written blog that is not sympathetic with Runnells' activities and refusal to do research for his own "questions."   http://www.withoutend.org/learn-jeremy-runnells-thoughts-departure-church/

His "nobody will answer my questions!" is absurd. He could answer them himself. He just doesn't like the answers. But that doesn't mean he doesn't need an interpreter. For those who disagree, I suggest you go into a critical business meeting with earplugs. Don't insert them all the way into your canal, just a little bit so you can hear some of what is going on. You will be fine.

I suppose to ask questions I need to be a professional?  That is a new one.  Let's play your game.  I served as an RTI - a Resident Training Instructor for children who were non-verbal at an institution named Sunland.   All of my students were between the ages of 16 and 18 and all were female.  I had three students in the morning and three students in the evening.  I don't know if that qualifies me to ask questions, but you seem to be the person judging whether an individual is qualified - you tell me.  Oh, I also studied and was relatively fluent with ASL at the time and can still converse.  

Now, the simple answer is that he has cochlear implants.  Why was that so hard to give rather than the utter BS that came later?  

Our ward just had a baptism two weeks ago of a 41 year old man.  Surprisingly he has cochlear implants.  He free says he has a hearing problem and is more comfortable speaking one on one.  He does not need an interpreter or translator.  The mere fact that one has cochlear implants does not indicate that an interpreter is required or necessary.  I guess you did not know that.  Surprising to me being unqualified and all.

In our family we have three families that have children with varying degrees of autism.  One of the children has Downs Syndrome.  I suggest you take that sanctimonious chip on your shoulder and put it somewhere else.  You are barking up the wrong tree and I am being kind right now.  You are out of bounds and are beyond ignorant of my situation or anyone else's it appears.

  

[JLHPROF]

20 hours ago, Sky said:

This was posted on his Facebook page:

Quote

For those of you who are struggling with doubts, stop doubting the doubts. Cherish your doubts. Explore your doubts. Resolve your doubts. Doubt is the beginning to knowledge and wisdom.

 

Funny, that seems to be the exact opposite of everything God has ever said about doubt (and I'm not just talking about Mormon teachings either).  Pretty sure faith is the preferred course.

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Skepticism is NOT of God.  Faith and reason, but never doubt and skepticism.

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I suppose to ask questions I need to be a professional?  That is a new one.  Let's play your game.  I served as an RTI - a Resident Training Instructor for children who were non-verbal at an institution named Sunland.   All of my students were between the ages of 16 and 18 and all were female.  I had three students in the morning and three students in the evening.  I don't know if that qualifies me to ask questions, but you seem to be the person judging whether an individual is qualified - you tell me.  Oh, I also studied and was relatively fluent with ASL at the time and can still converse.  

Now, the simple answer is that he has cochlear implants.  Why was that so hard to give rather than the utter BS that came later?  

Our ward just had a baptism two weeks ago of a 41 year old man.  Surprisingly he has cochlear implants.  He free says he has a hearing problem and is more comfortable speaking one on one.  He does not need an interpreter or translator.  The mere fact that one has cochlear implants does not indicate that an interpreter is required or necessary.  I guess you did not know that.  Surprising to me being unqualified and all.

In our family we have three families that have children with varying degrees of autism.  One of the children has Downs Syndrome.  I suggest you take that sanctimonious chip on your shoulder and put it somewhere else.  You are barking up the wrong tree and I am being kind right now.  You are out of bounds and are beyond ignorant of my situation or anyone else's it appears.

  

 

Pot, meet Kettle.

[cdowis]

If anyone has any doubts of his intentions, he lays it out very clearly here  http://cesletter.com/ces-letter-at-the-crossroads.html

• The CES Letter (83 pages of content)
• Debunking FAIR’s Debunking (close to 900 pages of content!)
• Designed and coded website from scratch
• Routine maintenance and updates for all of the above
• A Zombie’s Reflections on That Mormon Apologist (over 100 pages of content)
• Book of Abraham: “Except for those willfully blind, the case is closed” (close to 75 pages of content)
• Daily and weekly email and phone conversations giving advice, encouragement and interaction with folks who are struggling (still ongoing and a part-time job in of itself)
• 3 hour Mormon Stories interview. (Thank you, John!)
• Audio version of CES Letter (Thank you, Brett Menzie!)
• Spanish translation of CES Letter (Thank you, David!)
  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is not the activities of someone who is sincerely and earnestly searching for answers to his private doubts, but someone whose mission to is to destroy the Church.  

Why the translation into Spanish?  Is he hoping that someone will answer his questions in Spanish.  He plans an additional seven translations of his materials.

Why the effort to code the website and doing updates and the upkeep?

Why the interview with Dehlin?  Was he hoping that Dehlin would have the answers that he so desperately sought.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As a cynical apologist, I see this effort at delay is to put a notch in his belt as a victim of the evil Mormon empire.

[Calm]

What delay?

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It is not fun..it is like being in a world all by yourself sometimes and trying hard to be a part of it.  One thing we have to realize is that because a person doesn't hear..doesn't mean he doesn't listen.  This may make sense only to me... Gray, hope your minor hearing loss remains minor.  I used to sing and play instruments..now I can't find the darn melody. 

 

Sorry you are going through this Jeanne.  My nephew by marriage married someone who has been deaf since very young, I try my darndest to speak my words so she can lip read.  

Edited April 19, 2016 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, USU78 said:

Do you honestly care about the image of the Church?

I am merely being Cassandra here:  telling the truth and being disbelieved.  It's my lot in life:  my handicap.

So how's about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know?

Me thinks you've been sipping a little too much Dr. Pepper...;)

Edited April 19, 2016 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

A needle, pulling thread.

Fa?

Oops I mean .... a long, long way to go......

Edited April 19, 2016 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

So what's with him purportedly having "excommunicated the LDS Church?"  We he excommunicated, or did he resign?  Was he disfellowshipped, and did he then resign?

Thanks,

-Smac

If I understand it he was faced with a DC and he handed in his resignation letter just before the DC took place. 

[Jeanne]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry you are going through this Jeanne.  My nephew by marriage married someone who has been deaf since very young, I try my darndest to speak my words so she can lip read.  

This is great.  Loud doesn't do anygood..but defined word do!!  Thank you Tacenda!

[rodheadlee]

Okay I have a question. Was he denied the right to bring his own ASL interpreter or did he want the church to supply one?

[flameburns623]

9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Okay I have a question. Was he denied the right to bring his own ASL interpreter or did he want the church to supply one?

He brought his own, who was turned away.

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I guess if the Church can't answer a member's questions, they have no alternative except to excommunicate.

Do you really think for a second he really even wanted his "questions" answered?

[carbon dioxide]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe Jeremy is going by the adage that if the church isn't true it should be harmed.  

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”

– President J. Reuben Clark

Not that this is verifiable, but he think's it is. 

Perhaps he should investigate it.  Perhaps asking or demanding others to answer his questions (most of which are really his anyways) he should answer his own questions by his own study.  When I was reading the works of Walter Martin and others back in the day, I did not demand others answer it or I was going to take my bat and go home. 

[juliann]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I suppose to ask questions I need to be a professional?  That is a new one.  Let's play your game.  I served as an RTI - a Resident Training Instructor for children who were non-verbal at an institution named Sunland.   All of my students were between the ages of 16 and 18 and all were female.  I had three students in the morning and three students in the evening.  I don't know if that qualifies me to ask questions, but you seem to be the person judging whether an individual is qualified - you tell me.  Oh, I also studied and was relatively fluent with ASL at the time and can still converse.  

Now, the simple answer is that he has cochlear implants.  Why was that so hard to give rather than the utter BS that came later?  

Our ward just had a baptism two weeks ago of a 41 year old man.  Surprisingly he has cochlear implants.  He free says he has a hearing problem and is more comfortable speaking one on one.  He does not need an interpreter or translator.  The mere fact that one has cochlear implants does not indicate that an interpreter is required or necessary.  I guess you did not know that.  Surprising to me being unqualified and all.

In our family we have three families that have children with varying degrees of autism.  One of the children has Downs Syndrome.  I suggest you take that sanctimonious chip on your shoulder and put it somewhere else.  You are barking up the wrong tree and I am being kind right now.  You are out of bounds and are beyond ignorant of my situation or anyone else's it appears.

  

I see you had to move the goal posts. My comments were regarding accommodations in ward buildings for those with special needs. You might want to bark up the same tree I was if you want to demean my experiences. That is great your friend doesn't need an interpreter. But you seem to think implants work the same for everyone so it has zero to do with what someone else might need. And yeah, I have a Masters chip degree on my shoulder in Speech Pathology and Audiology. Sue me.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, flameburns623 said:

He brought his own, who was turned away.

Serious?

[flameburns623]

May I suggest that the interpreter situation should NOT be all about Jeremy Runnells? 

The Deaf community is one of the most-unchurched communities around, largely because the Deaf/Hard-of-Hearing feel strongly that religious  "Hearings", (when capitalized, that word is reportedly slang/shorthand for hearing people: so also the word "Speakings" refers to people who use voice rather than hands to communicate), don't care about them:

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jun/20/local/me-61779

If we want to ascribe diabolical motives to Runnells,  he may well have realized this, and anticipated that a refusal to accommodate could resonate long and loud in the Deaf community.

Keep in mind: the Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing often communicate more by word-of-mouth (word-of-hand?) than in print.

Deaf often struggle with reading and other academics, particularly if they were mainstreamed into a classroom where the Speakings teachers spent a lot of time talking while writing on the chalkboard. Very hard to read someone's lips while their back is turned. Even if their mouth is in the back of their head, their hair masks a lot of what they're saying.  

So any potential damage control among Deaf/Hard-of-Hearing Saints and Investigators will need to happen at the grass roots level to be most effective.

No, I don't have any ideas on how to do that: the Deaf/Hard-of-Hearing community would deem me an outsider because I don't sign and have spent my whole life integrated into the Hearing community.

Tons of fallout occurred when a lifelong Deaf woman (who was mainstreamed/taught to lipread, and only learned ASL as a young adult) was appointed President of Gaulludet University. She was deemed somehow "not Deaf enough". The Deaf community has only been self-aware for fifty or so years, and it can be very strident and sensitized. 

I doubt Runnells' Stake President anticipated that his decision could impact Church relationships with, and ministry to, the Deaf.

However, if Runnells and other ex-Mo activists elect to trumpet the decision, it could be just one more obstacle for Missionary service in the Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing community.

Not certain this will happen. For one thing, Runnells appears pretty well integrated into the Hearing community himself. He may not have much traction among the Deaf/Hard-of-Hearing. We can only wait and see. 

But this thing may turn out to be not just about Runnells and his CES Letter.

Edit: SLTrib article of general interest regarding an LDS Deaf ward:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2351712-155/close-knit-mormon-ward-members-worship-in

Edited April 19, 2016 by flameburns623
Typos

[flameburns623]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Serious?

Well he seemed to be. I wasn't there to know. 

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, juliann said:

I see you had to move the goal posts. My comments were regarding accommodations in ward buildings for those with special needs. You might want to bark up the same tree I was if you want to demean my experiences. That is great your friend doesn't need an interpreter. But you seem to think implants work the same for everyone so it has zero to do with what someone else might need. And yeah, I have a Masters chip degree on my shoulder in Speech Pathology and Audiology. Sue me.

You are missing the point - it is not a requirement that one be present.  My initial question was simple - does he use an interpreter commonly in his life.  In other words, was this request to have an interpreter relatively novel for him?  That is all I was asking.

Good for you, by coincidence the mother of one of the children I mentioned is a speech pathologist.  

 

[sjdawg]

This is slightly off topic but why isn't an accused in a disciplinary council allowed to bring anyone he wants to witness the council.  lawyer, friend, spouse, etc?  I understand it is unreasonable to be able to bring 100 people but why isn't some kind of support system allowed to attend?  Or are they already allowed to attend?   I've never witnessed a stake disciplinary council only ward ones and the accused was always alone.  

[cdowis]

10 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

This is slightly off topic but why isn't an accused in a disciplinary council allowed to bring anyone he wants to witness the council.  lawyer, friend, spouse, etc?  I understand it is unreasonable to be able to bring 100 people but why isn't some kind of support system allowed to attend?  Or are they already allowed to attend?   I've never witnessed a stake disciplinary council only ward ones and the accused was always alone.  

For the same reason spectators are not allowed during a temple recommend interview.  It is not a trial, but an interview to speak to the facts and  a final attempt to give counsel to the individual which should be done in private.