Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 There was a talk given in Gereral Conference concerning "refugees", which caused comments to be made in Fast and Testimony meeting and into High Priest meeting this Sunday. During Priesthood meeting nothing was said about illegal immigration from our Southren neighbors, but the coming days of immigration from Islamic countries. It was not my impression from the Conference address that only one people were singled out...having said that, there were many concerns raised. 1. Honoring and obeying the "laws of the land", meaning those who come illegally. 2. Fear that some come to destroy our way of life, as we have already witnessed. 3. Individual fear... During class, I am sitting next to one of my oldest friends in the Church, who was voicing serious concerned. Finally, the High Priest group leader asked my friend, why such worry? I put my hand on my friend's shoulder and said, "I got this". I told the High Priest Group Leader, that "maybe you have forgotten that Paul is a Jew, his children and grandchildren are Jews". This post is not about politics, so please do not attempt to hijack this thread. Instead, on this question...has the time past that all who come here are led by the hand of God?
Duncan Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 Everyone that lives in America has immigrant relatives. Maybe they were brought here by the hand of the Lord but if they recognize it or not who knows
ksfisher Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 Perhaps one of the first things to do is define what is meant by "this land." Is it North America South America North and South America the United States we can rule out Canada a more specific location in some yet to be named area of Central America Also, when are we talking about? Is it forever or only for a certain time period.
Guest Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 22 minutes ago, Duncan said: Everyone that lives in America has immigrant relatives. Maybe they were brought here by the hand of the Lord but if they recognize it or not who knows You are correct, and answers my concern that the only thing many seem to walk away with was that the speaker was address Muslim and Christian Middle Eastern immigrants. In class we were trying to keep the focus on all immigrants, from all lands of the earth.
Guest Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Perhaps one of the first things to do is define what is meant by "this land." Is it North America South America North and South America the United States we can rule out Canada a more specific location in some yet to be named area of Central America Also, when are we talking about? Is it forever or only for a certain time period. Correct, that is why I asked "does this still apply to our day?
Buckeye Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: There was a talk given in Gereral Conference concerning "refugees", which caused comments to be made in Fast and Testimony meeting and into High Priest meeting this Sunday. During Priesthood meeting nothing was said about illegal immigration from our Southren neighbors, but the coming days of immigration from Islamic countries. It was not my impression from the Conference address that only one people were singled out...having said that, there were many concerns raised. 1. Honoring and obeying the "laws of the land", meaning those who come illegally. 2. Fear that some come to destroy our way of life, as we have already witnessed. 3. Individual fear... During class, I am sitting next to one of my oldest friends in the Church, who was voicing serious concerned. Finally, the High Priest group leader asked my friend, why such worry? I put my hand on my friend's shoulder and said, "I got this". I told the High Priest Group Leader, that "maybe you have forgotten that Paul is a Jew, his children and grandchildren are Jews". This post is not about politics, so please do not attempt to hijack this thread. Instead, on this question...has the time past that all who come here are led by the hand of God? I'm not aware of the any expiration in the BOM regarding the book's teaching that all who come to the promised land do so by the hand of God. If you're aware of something I'm missing, please point it out. Regardless, we're talking here about very recent instructions from church leaders. And while they were not speaking only of Muslim refugees, those refugees certainly are some of the people contemplated by the instructions to members to welcome and give relief. So even if the BOM teaching has some how expired, current PSRs (and women leaders !) are instructing us to welcome Muslims. I can't see any way to believe that Muslim immigration would not be by the hand of God unless one believes that the church leaders are not reflecting God's will. Edited April 13, 2016 by Buckeye
Ahab Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 42 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Perhaps one of the first things to do is define what is meant by "this land." Is it North America South America North and South America the United States we can rule out Canada a more specific location in some yet to be named area of Central America Also, when are we talking about? Is it forever or only for a certain time period. Good questions, and I don't think we really know what land was being referred to, specifically. Generally, somewhere on this continent. Who knows when. I seriously doubt that all the terrorists who come to this continent are brought here by the hand of our Lord.
ERMD Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 I'm not sure this scripture has a direct, literal application here and now, or even in every instance in the past. Were slaves brought to this land by the hand of God?
Guest Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Buckeye said: I'm not aware of the any expiration in the BOM regarding the book's teaching that all who come to the promised land do so by the hand of God. If you're aware of something I'm missing, please point it out. I have taken a neutral position on the topic, so I am not aware of any change. My question is this; if this applies to all that come, does it also mean those who come here to do harm? Be it persons who are part of drug cartels, or terriosts, etc? So nothing to point out, only seeking answers and opinions.
The Nehor Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 10 hours ago, Pa Pa said: There was a talk given in Gereral Conference concerning "refugees", which caused comments to be made in Fast and Testimony meeting and into High Priest meeting this Sunday. During Priesthood meeting nothing was said about illegal immigration from our Southren neighbors, but the coming days of immigration from Islamic countries. It was not my impression from the Conference address that only one people were singled out...having said that, there were many concerns raised. 1. Honoring and obeying the "laws of the land", meaning those who come illegally. 2. Fear that some come to destroy our way of life, as we have already witnessed. 3. Individual fear... During class, I am sitting next to one of my oldest friends in the Church, who was voicing serious concerned. Finally, the High Priest group leader asked my friend, why such worry? I put my hand on my friend's shoulder and said, "I got this". I told the High Priest Group Leader, that "maybe you have forgotten that Paul is a Jew, his children and grandchildren are Jews". This post is not about politics, so please do not attempt to hijack this thread. Instead, on this question...has the time past that all who come here are led by the hand of God? 1. Can be solved by changing the law. 2. If we destroy our way of life it will be die to internal and not external causes. Our way of life will be destroyed eventually anyways, it is not some divine ideal we are in now. 3. It is weird that quite possibly one of the least physically threatened generations in history is also one of the most paranoid and fearful.
CV75 Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 15 hours ago, Pa Pa said: has the time past that all who come here are led by the hand of God? Lehi and his family were led by God, and there were tares among them as well. There are refugees and then there are people posing as refugees. I think it is a similar dynamic as wheat and tares, wolves in sheep’s clothing, etc. In the parables, the Lord asks us to be observant, wise, brave and patient in dealing with such--especially with the tares, where He is calling the shots as to when and how to intervene. We don't know what miracle He might work out of helping refugees. We receive the Lord’s protection when we are charitable, and when bad things happen, His reward.
CV75 Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Pa Pa said: I have taken a neutral position on the topic, so I am not aware of any change. My question is this; if this applies to all that come, does it also mean those who come here to do harm? Be it persons who are part of drug cartels, or terriosts, etc? So nothing to point out, only seeking answers and opinions. I think there is a difference between those who are brought by the Lord and those who invade. 2 Nephi 1:7 says, “Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.” So there is a context for being brought for the Lord's purpose of enjoying a consecration, commandments, and liberty. Invaders would not prosper, but because of iniquity of those who were brought, the land can lose its protection and invaders come. I think this can happen in and by degrees. It is also interesting to me that Mormon 8 talks about the Nephite scriptures, as extensions of those He brought into the land, in the same way. “Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them. And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word. And behold, their prayers were also in behalf of him that the Lord should suffer to bring these things forth. And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead. And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.”
thesometimesaint Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 As God uses the wicked to punish the wicked I don't believe it is a good idea to get too self-righteous.
RevTestament Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 19 hours ago, ksfisher said: Perhaps one of the first things to do is define what is meant by "this land." Is it North America South America North and South America the United States we can rule out Canada a more specific location in some yet to be named area of Central America Also, when are we talking about? Is it forever or only for a certain time period. I have my own beliefs about this, but am not so confident that we can rule out Canada - do you mean it has no Lamanites? If so, it may very well be at least part of the Promise Land. I think it has a better chance of that than say S. America.
ksfisher Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I have my own beliefs about this, but am not so confident that we can rule out Canada - do you mean it has no Lamanites? If so, it may very well be at least part of the Promise Land. I think it has a better chance of that than say S. America. No, I was just trying to get a rise out of Duncan.
RevTestament Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: No, I was just trying to get a rise out of Duncan. Ah, I see said the blind man.
Sevenbak Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 Laman and Lamuel were brought to this land by the hand of God just assuredly as Lehi and Nephi. The Lord often uses the wicked to humble the righteous. No difference with today and infiltrated terrorists. Can't really blame the Lord for it, we are pretty ripe... Then there's the whole notion of the Lamanites tredding over the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts of the forest, but that deserves its own thread... 1
Guest Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 (edited) On April 14, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Sevenbak said: Laman and Lamuel were brought to this land by the hand of God just assuredly as Lehi and Nephi. The Lord often uses the wicked to humble the righteous. No difference with today and infiltrated terrorists. Can't really blame the Lord for it, we are pretty ripe... Then there's the whole notion of the Lamanites tredding over the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts of the forest, but that deserves its own thread... Well said, in God's plan even the wicked play a part. Edited April 15, 2016 by Pa Pa
The Nehor Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: As God uses the wicked to punish the wicked I don't believe it is a good idea to get too self-righteous. Yeah, but if I am wicked that might mean I get to punish other wicked people. What is the ratio of punisher to punishee so I know if this is a good or a bad bet?
The Nehor Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 On 4/13/2016 at 4:47 PM, Ahab said: I seriously doubt that all the terrorists who come to this continent are brought here by the hand of our Lord. So you are suggesting America did not need terrorists to stir us up to repentance?
Ahab Posted April 15, 2016 Posted April 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So you are suggesting America did not need terrorists to stir us up to repentance? Okay, well, maybe there is a slight chance that terrorists have been brought here by the hand of the Lord. But I still at least kinda seriously doubt it.
Ahab Posted April 15, 2016 Posted April 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, but if I am wicked that might mean I get to punish other wicked people. What is the ratio of punisher to punishee so I know if this is a good or a bad bet? Pretty close to 50/50, I'd say, since pretty much every person is both a punisher and a punishee.
provoman Posted April 15, 2016 Posted April 15, 2016 On April 13, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Ahab said: I seriously doubt that all the terrorists who come to this continent are brought here by the hand of our Lord. My thoughts as well
provoman Posted April 15, 2016 Posted April 15, 2016 53 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So you are suggesting America did not need terrorists to stir us up to repentance? Are you suggesting God caused 9/11 to stir the United States to repentance.
The Nehor Posted April 15, 2016 Posted April 15, 2016 5 hours ago, provoman said: Are you suggesting God caused 9/11 to stir the United States to repentance. Not caused. More likely allowed. But yeah.
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