Wishing for answers

[DBMormon]

13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I have only one sincere question of you DB. Would you believe them if they did answer your sincere questions?

yes as long they didn't come off as ducking or changing the questions

[DBMormon]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I second this. Bill, you really ought to send these questions to Church HQ. Posting them in online forums doesn't get you anywhere as far as getting answers to them. If you get no response, or a terse non-answer from a secretary, you're no worse off.

It may be that getting authoritative answers to them isn't your primary reason for posting them in online forums . . .

I have written two GA's in the past asking such tough questions. While kind they have declined to answer

[DBMormon]

25 minutes ago, juliann said:

If I were to take a guess, it is probably because DB has not, to my knowledge, accepted many responses to the questions he repeatedly asks. That does tend to promote skepticism after awhile. But I do think being angry is part of the process of straightening things out. It is just that perpetual anger wears out the audience. I tend towards that  myself but as I age, I am more interested in my peace of mind than what others are saying or telling me. I just do and think what I want to ;-)

Could you please show me where the Church has answered these formally?  

[RevTestament]

51 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Church leaders are answerable to the members.

Which is why we have sustaining votes at General Conference in addition to local conferences.

The whole idea that Church leaders are not answerable to the members has turned topsy-turvy Christ's teaching that the greatest among you shall be the least, and the leader shall be the servant of all.

What ever happened to that idea, anyway?

Christ still has it - I assure you.

[DBMormon]

14 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

I had this thought as well. The difference is, at least to my knowledge, DB has not made a public statement that he does not believe the truth claims of the church nor has he been asked to stop.

both true as of this moment

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

One of my main questions right now is...

Is it possible we don't have a perfect understanding of God's mind, will, and processes? If it's possible we don't understand perfectly, why are definitive statements made that imply we know/understand things as they will be eternally?

Example- What is the role of homosexuals in God's plan of happiness? You imply that gays can't eternally procreate and therefore shouldn't marry or have families, but are eternal spirits procreated in the same way physical bodies are? If so, is there a source for a revelation? Or is it possible we don't understand God and his processes for procreating/organizing spirits from eternal intelligence? If we don't know for sure, couldn't we allow the possibility that gays have an eternal role in the plan of happiness, just as they are?

Answer:

 26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Answer:

 26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Rod, in what way does that answer my question? I didn't ask if God created male and female.

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

I had this thought as well. The difference is, at least to my knowledge, DB has not made a public statement that he does not believe the truth claims of the church nor has he been asked to stop.

10 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

both true as of this moment

"As of this moment."

Huh.

-Smac

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

I appreciate your kindness.  I feel I have the answer to many of these for myself.  My issue is the Brethren like to stand back and say "Gone are the days when we brush people off and give simple answers" and yet that is exactly what they do.  My questions are sincere.  I would appreciate the Brethren willingness to acknowledge these questions and give answers even if those answers hurt people faith in false things or even if the answer was "we don't know".  For me to be healed, I need to see that the Church has matured enough to be willing to come face to face with its own paradoxes and contradictions rather than perpetuate the simple stories around them.  Again thanks.

You seem to be taking issue with the fact that the brethren are not answering your personal questions.  Is that realistic?  Especially given the fact that you probably only post your questions on public forums, crying that the brethren are ignoring you.  I have tons of questions that I would love to have answered directly and personally by a prophet, as I am sure everybody does, but they are not the same questions as yours.  Should I be crying if the brethren don't answer my questions directly, on top of yours, and everybody else's.   I think you misinterpret "gone are the days..." to be an open invitation to all members of the church to have their personal questions considered and answered personally by the brethren.  He was speaking to institute teachers etc.   

You claim that your questions are sincere, but you are not really looking for answers, as you claim to have sufficient answers to most of these questions already.  No, you want the brethren to answer your personal questions (which you already have the answers to) publicly, as a type of expose´ DBMormon style - personalized and catered specifically to your interests.  Well, if you are entitled to that, what about the rest of us?  Should we all be entitled to have our personal questions answered publicly from the pulpit? 

Let's face it, the brethren are not doing their jobs good enough for you personally.  That's what this is about - it is a personal problem made public.  Don't be upset if the brethren see through your "sincere" personal questions.  In fact, don't be surprised if the brethren don't see your personal questions at all.  It is disingenuous to claim they are brushing you off by not answering your questions that they probably are not aware of.  But I wouldn't blame them if they did brush you off, as you clearly are not looking for private answers to personal questions. 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by pogi

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, DBMormon said:

 

1.) Can one pay tithing in the present on surplus income and still be a temple worthy and faithful Latter-day Saint? especially in light of the historical and theological evidence that this was the way it was intended/understood?  My question here is based on what I percieve is your discomfort in giving people this option in your public discourse while seemingly approving the 10% of Gross definition in spite that history, scripture, and revelation seem to give more validity to Surplus or something like it.  

2.) Have all 15 prophets seers and revelators at any one time been united on doctrine only to be shown to be wrong? in light of the Race and Priesthood essay. While you seem to hint at this, you seem to steer clear of ever acknowledging it publicly.  It seems you like you are willing to acknowledge this on some surface level and history bears it out but you seem determined to not say this to general membership.

3.) Do you concede church stances on issues have likely contributed to youth suicide especially the Church stances on LGBT issues?

4.) How much money do Full time Seventies get paid.... what about Apostles?

5.) Did you sign a non-disclosure form when joining the seventy... What about the 12?

6.) Was the priesthood ban an error rooted in racism? Again you seem happy to have your words be ambiguous so both sides fight over their meaning... could you just tell us what the essay is saying?

7.) Did John Taylor receive a revelation from God in 1896 that we turn a blind eye to.... Why?  you agree it seems to be Christ speaking and that polygamy will never end and that it was the new and everlasting covenant?  As a followup - You do see how our fundamentalist Brothers and Sisters in the break off groups can validate their schism from this revelation right?

8.) Is it true that Brigham young taught that he believed his Adam God ideas were revelation from God and if he did, why do we now say he was wrong?  The quotes are there, it is just important to hear you acknowledge it due to the repercussion of disavowing an idea once taught by a prophet as revelation revealed from God.

9.) Is it true that while leaders claim to be scripture, that scripture can be wrong?

10.) Is it true that no explanation for the book of Abraham is without deep problems?

11.) Is it true that the strengthen members committee keeps records on dissenting members to assist or encourage local leaders to weed them out?  Do they have a file on me? Can I see it?

12.) Is it true that while Church Public Affairs insists that all discipline matters are handles locally that certain discipline cases have been encouraged by members of the 12 and seventy with pressure to go after certain individuals?

13.) To the top 15 men, have you seen Jesus face to face individually and collectively or one or the other?  If you have not seen him collectively How can you know when you are getting revelation from him and not your own biased prejudiced views like leaders in the past

14.) Why do you continue to pose hope as less than knowing when Alma 32 seems to value both as gifts to be honored by God?

15.) Did the brethren approve/ know / authorize shock treatment to the genitals to "cure" gays at BYU?  Because we can no longer debate if this was done.  It was.  You know that right?

16.) Why do you tell us we can trust you as having attained the mind and will of God when all 15 of you are united when that has seemingly failed in the past and present leaders among you admit as much in the Race essay that approved by the 1st presidency on LDS.ORG

17) Can you help us understand how the top 15 under George Albert Smith were unitedly wrong about Doctrine that is today disavowed theories but in the next breath assure us that the current top 15 are absolutely right on the doctrine of LGBT members?

18.) Why on one hand do we declare that Joseph Smith said, “I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations" as if that shows the revelation of today's leaders can be trusted and on the other hand we have set aside several revelations from prophets as being understood today as not true? (Adam God, John Taylor 1886 revelation, and others)

19.) Why do you insist on our not trusting the internet for answers to our questions when you either change our questions or avoid answering them altogether?  In other words why say gone are the days teachers can avoid the tough questions of students but that is exactly what you do?

20.) Why do you not speak up in General Conference and tell our gay youth not to hurt themselves?

21.) How are we to trust our experiences with the spirit when those of other faiths have the same kind of experiences giving them testimony of their beliefs which contradict ours?  Can you validate that others seem to have the exact same experiences about contradicting beliefs?  Can you validate that others outside our faith seemingly feel the holy ghost as strong as those in our faith who have "The Gift of the Holy Ghost"

22.) Was it true that Joseph's treasure digging and mystical practices go much deeper than he let on?  can you truly grasp why stuff like this disturbs peoples faith?

23.) Was there ever a revelation from Christ to cease the participation of the sisters in blessings? If so where can I find it?

 

Interesting list of questions.  Of the top 23 things you want answered, how many of topics will bring you closer to Christ?  Sure its ok to ask some questions on issues that bug you in the Church but to have those as your main focus shows that your perspective on things might be a little out of balance.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[DBMormon]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"As of this moment."

Huh.

-Smac

 

testimonies are fluid.  Ask Thomas.  Also as of this moment no leader has reined me in, I can't speak to the future

[DBMormon]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Interesting list of questions.  Of the top 23 things you want answered, how many of topics will bring you closer to Christ?  Sure its ok to ask some questions on issues that bug you in the Church but to have those as your main focus shows that your perspective on things might be a little out of balance.  

all of them.

[Mars]

testimonies are fluid in that they are supposed to build.  not in a sense of vacillation.

[DBMormon]

1 minute ago, Mars said:

testimonies are fluid in that they are supposed to build.  not in a sense of vacillation.

I disagree.  And there is no evidence that all steps are forward

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

For instance no amount of prayer and scripture study will tell me how much income a apostle gets.

Do you really need to know this? Is your path to eternal life dependent on the answer to this question? The Apostles devote their entire retirement years working full time (which includes lots of over time) for the church. How do they pay for all the travel and living expenses that come with the calling? I think it's completely reasonable that they are compensated as needed for whatever it takes to effectively perform their duties. It is probably a different amount for each one of them depending on their needs. The living allowances are paid out from returns on investments made by the Church, not from the tithes and offerings paid today by members of the Church. 

Joseph Smith said:
“The Twelve and the Seventy have particularly to depend upon their ministry for their support, and that of their families; and they have a right, by virtue of their offices, to call upon the churches to assist them.” (TPJS 75)

Today, for the same reason, this includes General Authorities of the Church and mission Presidents.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

all of them.

really? knowing how much money a Seventy gets or genital shock treatment at BYU brings you closer to Christ? Please explain!

[Mars]

4 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

I disagree.  And there is no evidence that all steps are forward

there's plenty of evidence that testimonies are intended to be built in a progression, culminating in perfect knowledge.  that's the whole point of section 50 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

what steps are you referring to that would mean otherwise?

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

I have written two GA's in the past asking such tough questions. While kind they have declined to answer

Lets be real.  Do you really expect any GA to take the time out to respond to questions that every member might have? All they would ever do is sit at a table answering questions day after day from many people who are not even serious about the answers to the questions.  Many having already made a decision on the questions they ask. If I was a GA, I MIGHT respond to two or three of those questions if I had some free time but then ask you some questions in return to determine if you are a faithful member who is struggling with a few things or someone who just seeks to criticize the Church.  

 

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

testimonies are fluid.  Ask Thomas.  Also as of this moment no leader has reined me in, I can't speak to the future

So the concept of self-governance is not in sight, then?  We are at liberty to do or say whatever we want until and unless a leader steps in and tells us to stop?

I am reminded of a few more scriptures:

• James 1:26 - "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain."
• James 3:2 - "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."
• Alma 38:12 - "{S}ee that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love."
• Proverbs 25:28 - "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls."
• 1 Cor. 9:25 - "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things."
• D&C 107:99 - "Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence."
• D&C 58:26 - "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward."
• Alma 39:9 - "I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things."
• D&C 31:9 - "Govern your house in meekness, and be steadfast."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Mars]

nevermind, bill.  you've got enough on your plate with this thread.  i completely disagree that testimony is a step forward/step back process by design.  certainly i've seen people take crazy paths in life that gave them interesting experiences which provided ground for which a firm testimony gould grow, but i think those steps back are imprudent actions brought on by the natural man.  

the point is to take light and knowledge and build on it and retain what ground we've already won.

i suppose we will agree to disagree.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

you misunderstand the purpose of my questions. For instance no amount of prayer and scripture study will tell me how much income a apostle gets.  Only they can answer that.  no amount of prayer and scripture study can tell me if they as a group comprehend the paradoxes and contradictions of what they teach or of our history and if they fully validate the repercussions of where those issues lead once you acknowledge them.  If they answered these questions, the entire way general membership framed "What is the Church"  What is my testimony" and " What is a prophet and what should I expect and not expect from him and other leaders" would have to shift dramatically.

There is no good faith in these inquiries.

Thanks,

-Smac

[DBMormon]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

really? knowing how much money a Seventy gets or genital shock treatment at BYU brings you closer to Christ? Please explain!

It would help me regain trust in the authorized institution of the Lord.  No whether they did it or not but whether they are ready to own the truth of said behaviors and experiences.

Edited April 8, 2016 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

There is no good faith in these inquiries.

Thanks,

-Smac

I agree.  That real authentic answers or admission or even  "I don't know"'s would likely not be faith promoting for many.  That said they are my sincere questions and would be faith promoting for me.

Edited April 8, 2016 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

20 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Lets be real.  Do you really expect any GA to take the time out to respond to questions that every member might have? All they would ever do is sit at a table answering questions day after day from many people who are not even serious about the answers to the questions.  Many having already made a decision on the questions they ask. If I was a GA, I MIGHT respond to two or three of those questions if I had some free time but then ask you some questions in return to determine if you are a faithful member who is struggling with a few things or someone who just seeks to criticize the Church.  

 

since thousands have these questions... yes

[ERMD]

15 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

  No whether they did it or not but whether they are ready to own the truth of said behaviors and experiences.

So it's about your desire to exercise judgement and bring them to your version of justice.