carbon dioxide Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, Sevenbak said: This is nothing new. Anyone who attended the Regional Conference for Utah and Wasatch Counties 2 cycles ago, heard President Packer say much of the same, and more, that the time is coming when it will be harder for the saints than it was for the pioneers crossing the plains or Hole in the Rock, etc,. and to get prepared for persecution. One way to prepare for persecution is to visit your local gun shop and add a few items to emergency preparedness.
Duncan Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said: One way to prepare for persecution is to visit your local gun shop and add a few items to emergency preparedness. guns? you lightweight! I would put on Justin Bieber music if I was attacked, that will keep those bad men at bay! 4
volgadon Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Yes to what? To both, they are not mutually exclusive.
volgadon Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, Duncan said: guns? you lightweight! I would put on Justin Bieber music if I was attacked, that will keep those bad men at bay! Unless they are true beliebers. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, volgadon said: To both, they are not mutually exclusive. Gotcha. Wasn't sure.
sunstoned Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Of course we could do all those things. (Though I see nothing wrong with being nationalistic. I love America over other countries. It is my country. I would not blame a German to love their country over America. They should.) The reality is that it will not happen for the most part. The world will not repent. The world is marching towards more wickedness. It calls good bad and bad things good. So rather than spending too much time wishing that good things will happen, we should focus on being prepared for the bad stuff that is coming. If good times come while prepared, all the better. CFR that the world is marching towards more wickedness. Today, this very second, is the best time to be alive in the history of the world. Sure we have poverty, crime and war, but so has every generation. People today are more healthy, better educated and have more liberty than any other time. To say that trouble times are coming and society becoming worse is the rhetoric of religionist who feel their power base slipping away. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Oaks said it during the 9 AM session. You know, you are right. He did say something about increasing opposition to the Church and the Gospel, but he didn't make any dire predictions -- at least not that I recall.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I will admit to me the Hosanna shout seemed weird. Yeh, today was Palm Sunday, the day during Passion Week when Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, as the King of the Jews, when palm fronds were waved as he entered in glory, and the people cried out "Hosanna" (Matt 21:1-11). All seems weird to those not understanding the ancient traditions. However, even stranger is the Jewish practice of “Kapores,” the Yiddish (Ashkenazi) pronunciation of Hebrew kapporot; a pre-Day of Atonement ritual called in Yiddish shlogn kapores (“striking sacrifices, reviling the scapegoat”) in which chickens would be purchased for a pre-Yom Kippur rite and then waved around the head three times (held by the legs); after the waving, the chickens would be properly killed and given to the poor or at least to someone lower on the social ladder than the giver. Fish could be substituted and waved, as could a handkerchief with money (gelt) tied up inside. These were also then given to the poor. Cf. I Ne 11:6, III Ne 4:32, 11:17 ∥Mat 21:9,15, Mk 11:9-10, Jn 12:13; Ps 118:25-26; II Macc 10:5-8; D&C 109:79; Hebrew Hoši‘anna means "Oh (Lord), please save (us)!" 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, today was Palm Sunday, the day during Passion Week when Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, as the King of the Jews, when palm fronds were waved as he entered in glory, and the people cried out "Hosanna" (Matt 21:1-11). All seems weird to those not understanding the ancient traditions. However, even stranger is the Jewish practice of “Kapores,” the Yiddish (Ashkenazi) pronunciation of Hebrew kapporot; a pre-Day of Atonement ritual called in Yiddish shlogn kapores (“striking sacrifices, reviling the scapegoat”) in which chickens would be purchased for a pre-Yom Kippur rite and then waved around the head three times (held by the legs); after the waving, the chickens would be properly killed and given to the poor or at least to someone lower on the social ladder than the giver. Fish could be substituted and waved, as could a handkerchief with money (gelt) tied up inside. These were also then given to the poor. Cf. I Ne 11:6, III Ne 4:32, 11:17 ∥Mat 21:9,15, Mk 11:9-10, Jn 12:13; Ps 118:25-26; II Macc 10:5-8; D&C 109:79; Hebrew Hoši‘anna means "Oh (Lord), please save (us)!" Ya it's just I want to do what I'm supposed to do, but the image in some scriptures of people just chanting the same verse over and over again forever before the Lord's throne in heaven came to my mind during the shout, and I thought I might feel awkward doing that even if I'm supposed to. The only chant I feel comfortable with is the one during the endowment ceremony.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 26 minutes ago, sunstoned said: CFR that the world is marching towards more wickedness. Today, this very second, is the best time to be alive in the history of the world. Sure we have poverty, crime and war, but so has every generation. People today are more healthy, better educated and have more liberty than any other time. To say that trouble times are coming and society becoming worse is the rhetoric of religionist who feel their power base slipping away. Actually it is the sober assessment of science that the current dangers are far more likely to end life on planet Earth. The available technology makes that more possible than ever, and we have already seen industrial genocide on an unprecedented scale -- in my lifetime. Perhaps you think Nazism to have been a religion, and perhaps you think that Chairman Mao and Joe Stalin to have been motivated by religion to kill more people than at any time in history. They believed that religion is the opiate of the people and made it punishable by death to have faith in anything other than scientific Marxism, while good old Adolf tried to get rid of the Chosen People in his famed "Final Solution." Those who cannot learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. See Jonathan Schell, The Fate of the Earth (Knopf, 1982). Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Jan 19, 2015, online at http://thebulletin.org/ . 3
Sevenbak Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, today was Palm Sunday, the day during Passion Week when Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, as the King of the Jews, when palm fronds were waved as he entered in glory, and the people cried out "Hosanna" (Matt 21:1-11). All seems weird to those not understanding the ancient traditions. However, even stranger is the Jewish practice of “Kapores,” the Yiddish (Ashkenazi) pronunciation of Hebrew kapporot; a pre-Day of Atonement ritual called in Yiddish shlogn kapores (“striking sacrifices, reviling the scapegoat”) in which chickens would be purchased for a pre-Yom Kippur rite and then waved around the head three times (held by the legs); after the waving, the chickens would be properly killed and given to the poor or at least to someone lower on the social ladder than the giver. Fish could be substituted and waved, as could a handkerchief with money (gelt) tied up inside. These were also then given to the poor. Cf. I Ne 11:6, III Ne 4:32, 11:17 ∥Mat 21:9,15, Mk 11:9-10, Jn 12:13; Ps 118:25-26; II Macc 10:5-8; D&C 109:79; Hebrew Hoši‘anna means "Oh (Lord), please save (us)!" Aren't we glad Stake Centers across the western US were not filled with saints waving chickens three times around their heads today? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Ya it's just I want to do what I'm supposed to do, but the image in some scriptures of people just chanting the same verse over and over again forever before the Lord's throne in heaven came to my mind during the shout, and I thought I might feel awkward doing that even if I'm supposed to. The only chant I feel comfortable with is the one during the endowment ceremony. Then you'd also be uncomfortable with the Thrice Holy (Trisagion) in Jewish and Christian worship: Yet it is found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon: Isa 6:3, Rev 4:8, II Ne 16:3, Alma 31:15-16; I Enoch 39:10-13, II Enoch 8:8, 17;1, 19:6, 20:3, 21:1, 31:1-2, 42:4; Melchizedek 16:16 - 18:7 (Coptic Nag Hammadi Codex IX, 1); Talmud Babli Hullin 14a. The Jews call it the Qedusha, and it is also called the Sanctus by Christians. Your false notion that angels might be repeating the same verse over and over forever before the Lord's throne is unrelated to this issue. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Sevenbak said: Aren't we glad Stake Centers across the western US were not filled with saints waving chickens three times around their heads today? I understand that it can get messy, so most Jews nowadays go for a hanky filled with gelt for the poor. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I didn't see Elder Oaks's address. During the 9 a.m. session, I was outside covering the cornerstone ceremony. (I was with Sevenbak during that time; I think it has been mentioned on here before that he is a TV news videographer.) But I did attend the second dedicatory session in the temple. One of the speakers commented that the history of the Provo City Center Temple is a parable for the rebirth, renewal and transformation that occurs in our lives when we attend the temple frequently and make our attendance meaningful. I have attended many temple dedications over the years. (My first temple dedication was St. Louis Missouri in 1996, 20 years ago. That was temple #50. Provo City Center is temple #150.) In each instance I have been moved to tears during the proceedings, usually during the singing of the Hosannah Anthem. The words have deep meaning for me. And I'm not talking here about just "The Spirit of God," with words by William W. Phelps, which is sung by the congregation while the choir sings a descant. I'm talking about the composition written later by Evan Stephens expressly for the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple and which has been sung at each temple dedication since then. I looked for a copy of those words online but couldn't find it. However, I know the anthem is accessible. It is included The Choir Book, which is available from the Church Distribution Center. It would be worthwhile to get a copy and read those words if you haven't done so already. Edited March 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 4
Avatar4321 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I tried posting last night. Not sure what happened because I don't see the response. I think it's very likely we will suffer persecution and tough times ahead. I came across this quote from Brigham Young recently: Quote WHEN the Supreme Ruler of the universe wishes to destroy a nation, he takes away their wisdom in the first place, and they become insensible to their own interests, and they are filled with wrath; they give way to their anger, and thus lay the foundation of their own destruction. To him who seeks to save, he gives wisdom, which enables any people, nation, or individual to lay the foundation for strength, increase, and power. When we look abroad upon the nations, we can see this truth verified; and when we look at home in our own nation, it is no less verified. We see that wisdom is actually departing from the lawgiver, and the knowledge and the discretion the judge possessed years ago have vanished. We discern that the very policy adopted by the nations to fortify them in strength is calculated to sap their foundations. The axe is laid at the root of the tree, and all nations are filling up the cup of their guilt.” I've been noticing people losing their wisdom and becoming hopeless and angry at an accelerated rate. People who were once extremely well thought out and articulate have gone outright dumb. It pains me to see it. But I don't think it's something to worry about. It's in the hands of God We don't need to worry. We just need to do our duty to warn our brethren and put our reliance in God 1
busybee Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 22 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I think Oaks was talking about tough times ahead for the Saints and the members of the church, not so much the world, which has always had trouble. He brought up the persecution the early pioneers of the church felt, and it basically sounded like in the future we as Saints will have to deal with hardships, possibly against the church. Sorry to be a pain, but could you please show Elder Oaks the respect he deserves by using his title. Don't know if it's just me, but members calling church leaders just by their surnames seems very disrespectful. Thanks. Edited March 21, 2016 by busybee 1
carbon dioxide Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: CFR that the world is marching towards more wickedness. Today, this very second, is the best time to be alive in the history of the world. Sure we have poverty, crime and war, but so has every generation. People today are more healthy, better educated and have more liberty than any other time. To say that trouble times are coming and society becoming worse is the rhetoric of religionist who feel their power base slipping away. Wickedness is not based on being healthy, better educated, or more liberty. Plus our society is not more healthy. We are overweight and very unhealthy. I would even debate more educated. For many younger people today, their education is not stored in their brain but their smart phone.
consiglieri Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I think Elder Oaks should perhaps be looking inside the Church for the bad things that are happening, many of them with his advice and consent. It has been evident to me for some time that the modern LDS Church talks a lot about revelation but really doesn't produce any and hasn't for some time now. The main goal seems to synthetize and maintain the doctrine that was revealed through Joseph Smith (and modified sometimes through subsequent leaders), and to hold onto it with a death grip for fear of its being tampered with and modified. This alone makes the modern LDS Church substantially different from the church in Joseph Smith's day. As has been said before, we have prophets who don't prophesy, seers who don't see, and revelators who don't reveal. But it seems in the past year of so, things have gone way past that. The LDS Church, in its steadfast desire to hold onto its core doctrinal teachings, is actually seeing those core doctrinal teachings begin to slip away. Could this be a fulfillment of a prophecy found in the Book of Mormon? I was pondering the words of Nephi in 2 Nephi 28 yesterday; the words that say: Quote 29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough! 30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. It is common for Mormons to take this warning and apply it to non-Mormons in a sometimes judgmental way; but I think the more pertinent application may be to the modern LDS Church. This may be the fundamental problem with the Church today, exacerbated as it is by the Church Correlation Committee. We are at a point where we do seem to say that we have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough. I know we talk about Church revelation and personal revelation an awful lot, but this seems to be a mask to cover up the absolute dearth of revelation that is actually occurring. Here, God promises to continue to bless his people with wisdom, little by little, and if they receive it, God will give more. But if the people say that they have enough, the promise is not only that no more will be given, but even the things they have already received will be taken away. This has always struck me as counterintuitive. How does God take away what has already been given? It was while my wife was mentioning Elder Oaks' comment about the Church not asking forgiveness that it struck me. This would seem to be an elemental aspect of the gospel; asking for forgiveness from those we have wronged. And yet, it seems that this basic element is slipping away. Is God taking it away as promised in 2 Nephi? I can’t answer that, but when you add it to the many other things we are losing recently with the advent of the new policy, it makes me wonder. The new policy has subverted and “taken away” the basic doctrinal principles of eight being the age of accountability; the importance of the Gift of the Holy Ghost for ALL youth; the famous statement of Jesus to “suffer the little ones to come unto me and forbid them not”; and the doctrine that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression. How many more parts of the gospel will be “taken away” as we refuse to accept the new wisdom God seeks to give us as a church? I don’t know if this is a testimony of the truth of this principle as set forth in the Book of Mormon, but if it is, it is not a testimony in the way the LDS Church would want it to be. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, Elder Oaks. It tolls for thee. All the Best! --Consiglieri
HappyJackWagon Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Is it unusual that Elder Oaks did the dedication? Aren't dedications usually presided over by a member of the First Presidency? Especially a temple like this...in Provo...seems like the First Presidency would have been involved. Does anyone know about this specifically or even more generally about the dedications done by apostles who are not in the 1st Pres.?
ksfisher Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: 8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Is it unusual that Elder Oaks did the dedication? Aren't dedications usually presided over by a member of the First Presidency? Especially a temple like this...in Provo...seems like the First Presidency would have been involved. Does anyone know about this specifically or even more generally about the dedications done by apostles who are not in the 1st Pres.? I can't think of any reason why a member of the 1st Presidency would need to be present, other than tradition. All of the apostles hold the same priesthood keys. I don't believe a member of the 1st Presidency presided at the Brigham City Temple dedication. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-packer-dedicates-brigham-city-utah-temple
BlueDreams Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Is it unusual that Elder Oaks did the dedication? Aren't dedications usually presided over by a member of the First Presidency? Especially a temple like this...in Provo...seems like the First Presidency would have been involved. Does anyone know about this specifically or even more generally about the dedications done by apostles who are not in the 1st Pres.? I know Elder Packer dedicated the Brigham City Temple. It's not common from the temples I looked up randomly, but it can happen and isn't exactly monumental. With luv, BD
HappyJackWagon Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I can't think of any reason why a member of the 1st Presidency would need to be present, other than tradition. All of the apostles hold the same priesthood keys. I don't believe a member of the 1st Presidency presided at the Brigham City Temple dedication. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-packer-dedicates-brigham-city-utah-temple Yeah, I agree. I was just surprised and couldn't remember a similar example- thanks for the link for the Brigham City.
halconero Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 12 hours ago, sunstoned said: CFR that the world is marching towards more wickedness. Today, this very second, is the best time to be alive in the history of the world. Sure we have poverty, crime and war, but so has every generation. People today are more healthy, better educated and have more liberty than any other time. To say that trouble times are coming and society becoming worse is the rhetoric of religionist who feel their power base slipping away. Depends what metric you're measuring it by. For example, my training is in Medical Anthropology and more specifically Epidemiology. I'm not an expert, but my current work as a Clinic Administrator and soon-to-be entrance into an MD program has alarm bells going off with regards to emerging diseases and conflicts in relation to both Climate Change and the end of the antibiotic age. The medical community is seeing an alarming increase in MRSA's in 1st-world hospitals and MDRTB in the 3rd World. Cholera epidemics are expected to rise in association with increased water shortages and flooding in tropical areas (both connected with climate change). Overuse of antibiotics in industrial meat production, and overconsumption of meat is leading to tremendous increase of bacterial immunity and chronic disease. Climate Change wise, as drought increases in areas such as the Asiatic Steppes and Plateaus ranging from Russia, China, and more significantly India and the Tibetan Plateau there is already evidence of conflict over resources as well as associated food shortages. I'm the type to connect conflict both with extreme affluence and wealth disparity, but also over resources (especially those as essential as food and water). It's not just the religionists who are being alarmists. It's also the scientists crying doom and gloom should we not correct our course both with antibiotics and our treatment of the earth's climate. 2
ksfisher Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Yeah, I agree. I was just surprised and couldn't remember a similar example- thanks for the link for the Brigham City. I wonder if the 1st Presidency isn't starting to concentrate more on areas outside the Wasatch Front. Church members in areas close to Salt Lake City have the opportunity to attend General Conference or other similar events, while those further away do not. They may be trying to visit Saints in these areas who otherwise may never have the opportunity to see a member of the 1st Presidency in person.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, busybee said: Sorry to be a pain, but could you please show Elder Oaks the respect he deserves by using his title. Don'y know if it's just me, but members calling church leaders just by their surnames seems very disrespectful. Thanks. Do you feel the same way with people just calling Joseph Smith and Brigham Young by their names without adding prophet Smith? He actually preferred being called Brother Joseph not President Smith. I played sports so it's common of me to call people by just their last name.
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