RevTestament Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Stargazer said: Dang, and here I thought this was a new thread. It's over two years old! RevTestament has necromanced yet another thread! Yeah, I think this is why Cinepro said I had to wait 2 years for his answer. I avoided this thread on purpose until now.
RevTestament Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The Hebrew word for "mountain" can include hill country, as in Palestine, and there is plenty of that in Missouri (I lived there 7 years), including Adam-ondi-Ahman. Indeed, the Garden of Eden is eastward of the Great Plains, and (as you know) Eden means "plain" anyhow, and Adam "pastureland.". So it fits the locale rather well. Granted the Hebrew word can refer to large hills. For instance I believe the 7 hills of Rome qualify as mounts - but that would be from the Greek. Spring Hill, Missouri is a beautiful locale, The Lord picked well, and plans to open the heavens to His people there and bless them in their time of need. However, D&C is not in Hebrew - it is in English, and it says mountains. Quote A local flood in the Carolinas would be all that was necessary to set Noah's ark on its long ocean drift to the Middle East where only an inland hill (not a high mountain) would have been needed for it to come to rest. The actual time-depths need only have been ceremonial rather than literal. So we don't need constricted time demands. Thus, cinepro's demands are unnecessary. The Bible says the garden was planted eastward in Eden because that was its locale in relation to the Hebrew scribe who penned it. There is no scriptural reason to believe the Garden of Eden was east of Adam-ondi-Ahman. BTW Sumeria is just about due east of Jerusalem. It fits well too. Including being down river from Assyria mentioned in JS' version of the account in Moses. Joseph Smith never said the garden of Eden was in the Americas. That is the doing of later GAs - notably BY. It contradicts the JST Moses. It contradicts findings which support Sumeria was the source of the words connected with the area - Edin, Adam, and even Ahman. Sumeria had its own unique language which fits with it being the Adamic language. It also fits the Biblical place descriptions and chronological timeline. It just all fits. Spring Hill, Missouri? Nothing fits. There is zero supporting evidence, and I believe it is anti-scriptural. It simply is named Adam-ondi- Ahman because that is where Adam shall come to deliver YHWH's judgment.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Granted the Hebrew word can refer to large hills. For instance I believe the 7 hills of Rome qualify as mounts - but that would be from the Greek. Spring Hill, Missouri is a beautiful locale, The Lord picked well, and plans to open the heavens to His people there and bless them in their time of need. However, D&C is not in Hebrew - it is in English, and it says mountains. The Bible says the garden was planted eastward in Eden because that was its locale in relation to the Hebrew scribe who penned it. There is no scriptural reason to believe the Garden of Eden was east of Adam-ondi-Ahman. BTW Sumeria is just about due east of Jerusalem. It fits well too. Including being down river from Assyria mentioned in JS' version of the account in Moses. Joseph Smith never said the garden of Eden was in the Americas. That is the doing of later GAs - notably BY. It contradicts the JST Moses. It contradicts findings which support Sumeria was the source of the words connected with the area - Edin, Adam, and even Ahman. Sumeria had its own unique language which fits with it being the Adamic language. It also fits the Biblical place descriptions and chronological timeline. It just all fits. Spring Hill, Missouri? Nothing fits. There is zero supporting evidence, and I believe it is anti-scriptural. It simply is named Adam-ondi- Ahman because that is where Adam shall come to deliver YHWH's judgment. You are wrong. The "Garden" itself is placed on the East side of this fertile "plain" or Eden (according to Genesis 2:8, Abraham 5:8, the Hebrew miqedem being both partitive and locative), thus suggesting the appropriateness of Jackson County, Missouri, as the original site. Adam-ondi-Ahman is also not so far from the Garden: D&C 117:8 speaks of the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman and the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt – as though he actually lived there and was not simply passing through on a world tour. M. Cowley wrote that A. Smoot and A. Ripley claimed that, while surveying land at Adam-ondi-Ahman (about 72 miles north of Jackson County), Joseph Smith visited them and "said that the Garden of Eden was located in Jackson County, Missouri."[1] As for Noah preparing for the Deluge in the Carolinas, that was an assertion by Oliver B. Huntington in Juvenile Instructor, (15 Nov 1895), 700-701, as cited by Tanner & Tanner, Changing World of Mormonism, 23; cf. LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 659-660. [1] Cowley, Wilford Woodruff, 545-546, cited in BYU Studies, 13:566; cf. the Woodruff Journals for possible mention; cf. TPJS, 126, for Joseph's statement that Adam offered sacrifice in Adam-ondi-Ahman after being cast out of the Garden – this best makes sense in light of Phelps in Evening & Morning Star, I/11 (April 1833), quoting Moses 5:1-16, the Lord speaking to Adam from the Garden! What is the distance there?
Atheist Mormon Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 On 2/14/2016 at 8:20 PM, mfbukowski said: Snore The gospel is not about science. Resume snoring. How do you compartmentalize so comfortably?
mnn727 Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 On 2/15/2016 at 9:16 AM, Tacenda said: I believe as some believe of the Zelph story, that Joseph was just telling stories or parables along the trail or exploration, maybe to get the men in the party excited about the restoration. To me the Zelph story is proof that Joseph had a good sense of humor. 2
The Nehor Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 17 hours ago, rongo said: Local flooders are embarrassed by the Church's "backwards" doctrine and teaching on the global flood. There are some convoluted attempts to be "nuanced" that I find to be embarrassing as well. Tapirs instead of horses, black skin didn't really refer to skin color at all, etc. LDS attempts to explain how the Flood could only have been local fit in this category for me. Does this same phenomenon exist among other conservative Christian churches (believers who try to explain how the Flood of the Bible was really just a local flood)? I respect that some people believe that geology, biology, etc. simply don't leave room for belief in the Flood, but it's sad to me to feel their embarrassment that most active members (and many non-members of other faiths) believe that the Flood story is literal. As a mostly local flooder I am not embarrassed by those who believe in a global one or our weird doctrines. I like our weird doctrines. They keep things interesting. 2
ALarson Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I have a theory, if you're interested. I gather that many among the first generation of Latter-day Saints firmly believed that the Second Coming of Christ and the events attendant thereto would occur within their collective lifetimes. In those days, walking -- and perhaps pulling a handcart -- was the principal means of overland travel. Furthermore, the Church as a whole was yet small enough that it could fit easily within Jackson County, Missouri, and its environs. Thus arose the myth that, prior to the Second Coming, the Latter-day Saints would be required to walk back to the the "center place" of Missouri, there to build the prophesied New Jerusalem. The myth merely persisted through the generations, with many people not bothering to think it through. Yes, I think you're correct. Also, members heard these types of statements and thought it meant ALL saints would gather (missing the words "some" and "may"): Quote Joseph F. Smith in 1882: “When God leads the people back to Jackson County, how will he do it? Let me picture to you how some of us may be gathered and led to Jackson County. I think I see two or three hundred thousand people wending their way across the great plain enduring the nameless hardships of the journey, herding and guarding their cattle by day and by night. … This is one way to look at it. It is certainly a practical view. Some might ask, what will become of the railroads? I fear that the sifting process would be insufficient were we to travel by railroads.” (Journal of Discourses, 24:156–57.) Edited April 21, 2018 by ALarson 2
RevTestament Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are wrong. The "Garden" itself is placed on the East side of this fertile "plain" or Eden (according to Genesis 2:8, Abraham 5:8, the Hebrew miqedem being both partitive and locative), thus suggesting the appropriateness of Jackson County, Missouri, as the original site. Adam-ondi-Ahman is also not so far from the Garden: D&C 117:8 speaks of the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman and the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt – as though he actually lived there and was not simply passing through on a world tour. M. Cowley wrote that A. Smoot and A. Ripley claimed that, while surveying land at Adam-ondi-Ahman (about 72 miles north of Jackson County), Joseph Smith visited them and "said that the Garden of Eden was located in Jackson County, Missouri."[1] As for Noah preparing for the Deluge in the Carolinas, that was an assertion by Oliver B. Huntington in Juvenile Instructor, (15 Nov 1895), 700-701, as cited by Tanner & Tanner, Changing World of Mormonism, 23; cf. LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 659-660. [1] Cowley, Wilford Woodruff, 545-546, cited in BYU Studies, 13:566; cf. the Woodruff Journals for possible mention; cf. TPJS, 126, for Joseph's statement that Adam offered sacrifice in Adam-ondi-Ahman after being cast out of the Garden – this best makes sense in light of Phelps in Evening & Morning Star, I/11 (April 1833), quoting Moses 5:1-16, the Lord speaking to Adam from the Garden! What is the distance there? If you want to get like that, then the garden wasn't even in Eden, but was downstream Abraham 5:10 There was a river running out of Eden, to water the garden, and from thence it was parted and became into four heads.
RevTestament Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, mnn727 said: To me the Zelph story is proof that Joseph had a good sense of humor. I take that very seriously. It is in several first-hand accounts. It seems troubling to people because of the totally ungeographical and uncultural positions they have taken for the events in the BoM. I believe it was Wilford Woodruff who buried the bones in a solemn ceremony. If it was all a joke, Joseph Smith played a good, but mean one on everybody. Actually the mound has been excavated and found to be a Hopewell mound - right culture and time... But that won't phase the mesoAmericanists... 1
mfbukowski Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: How do you compartmentalize so comfortably? Understanding the nature of what we CALL "true".
Jeanne Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, mnn727 said: To me the Zelph story is proof that Joseph had a good sense of humor. Did he really believe all that he spoke of? Delusions? How does one define the way this Prophet thinks?
carbon dioxide Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 On 2/14/2016 at 5:04 PM, cinepro said: How do we reconcile this with the idea that Noah's flood was a local flood located in the area of the Middle East? If the Noah flood was a local flood then why bother building a big boat. Just take a nice long walk a few weeks before the flood and get out of the way. No reason to put a bunch of animals on the boat either. They can also take a nice walk. Good exercise.
Calm Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: If the Noah flood was a local flood then why bother building a big boat. Just take a nice long walk a few weeks before the flood and get out of the way. No reason to put a bunch of animals on the boat either. They can also take a nice walk. Good exercise. Maybe God wanted them in a different place...across an ocean. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, RevTestament said: ................................Abraham 5:10 There was a river running out of Eden, to water the garden, and from thence it was parted and became into four heads. The "mouth" and "head" of any river can be understood in similar ways in ancient terms. And, oddly enough, the late David Noel Freedman moved the discussion of such rivers to North America: Quote . . . the Mississippi River in our country drains a vast basin from north to south, being fed by tributary rivers on both sides, e.g., the Ohio, itself the product of a vast tributary system flowing into the Mississippi from the East, while the mighty Missouri joins the Mississippi from the West. If we try to impose a real picture on the imagined one in the book of Genesis, we might come out in the following fashion: It may be that the flow of the biblical rivers from one source into many streams will be reversed and they will flow back into the main stream from which they came.[1] [1] Freedman, “Introduction: The Rivers of Paradise,” in Freedman & M. J. McClymond, eds., The Rivers of Paradise (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001), 9; E. A. Speiser, “The Rivers of Paradise,” in Festschrift Johannes Friedrich, 473-485. Edited April 21, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
Atheist Mormon Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Understanding the nature of what we CALL "true". Give me one example of the truth that is harmonious with the nature & Science.
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: Give me one example of the truth that is harmonious with the nature & Science. I do not understand your question. Truth is a word. You want an example of a proposition which is true? "The chemical formula for water is H2O". Here is an article which will explain what the word means more fully https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/ Quote According to the deflationary theory of truth, to assert that a statement is true is just to assert the statement itself. For example, to say that ‘snow is white’ is true, or that it is true that snow is white, is equivalent to saying simply that snow is white, and this, according to the deflationary theory, is all that can be said significantly about the truth of ‘snow is white’. There are many implications of a theory of this sort for philosophical debate about the nature of truth. Philosophers often make suggestions like the following: truth consists in correspondence to the facts; truth consists in coherence with a set of beliefs or propositions; truth is the ideal outcome of rational inquiry. According to the deflationist, however, such suggestions are mistaken, and, moreover, they all share a common mistake. The common mistake is to assume that truth has a nature of the kind that philosophers might find out about and develop theories of. For the deflationist, truth has no nature beyond what is captured in ordinary claims such as that ‘snow is white’ is true just in case snow is white. Philosophers looking for the nature of truth are bound to be frustrated, the deflationist says, because they are looking for something that isn't there.
Atheist Mormon Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I do not understand your question. Truth is a word. You want an example of a proposition which is true? "The chemical formula for water is H2O". Here is an article which will explain what the word means more fully https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/ Yes you got the meaning of truth, but where is the execution? Testability?
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 On 2/14/2016 at 4:04 PM, cinepro said: How do we reconcile this with the idea that Noah's flood was a local flood located in the area of the Middle East? Easy. Someone in the middle east wrote a parable about God saving his people in a world flooded with evil. Nothing to it- what's the problem? 1
Thinking Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 I visited Adam-Ondi-Ahman in 2003 with my wife and kids as part of a cross country trip. The valley is beautiful and I can see why Joseph Smith was inspired to create a story about its historical significance.
Rajah Manchou Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 On 2/15/2016 at 7:04 AM, cinepro said: What this mean for scientific models of ancient human dispersion? Should LDS reject these theories (and their attendant evidences)? How do we reconcile this with the idea that Noah's flood was a local flood located in the area of the Middle East? One of the leading experts on human dispersion (Out of Eden) has also reconciled the idea that Noah's flood was a local flood (Eden in the East).
nuclearfuels Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 On 2/14/2016 at 7:04 PM, cinepro said: Today in out Stake Conference broadcast, Elder Renlund shared a story about a visit to Adam-ondi-Ahman (the Church-owned property in Missouri). While visiting with a non-member there, he shared a brief outline of LDS beliefs regarding that area. As he outlined these beliefs, it struck me as how anachronistic this belief could be to the worldview of some LDS. With this belief, several key aspects of the conventional history of mankind's existence on this planet come into question. Specifically: Significant Events: Three years before he died, Adam called his righteous posterity into this valley and bestowed on them his last blessing (D&C 107:53–56) So what does this mean? If Adam was living with his children in the land that is now Missouri three years before he died, does this indeed confirm that the Garden of Eden was in the general vicinity? What this mean for scientific models of ancient human dispersion? Should LDS reject these theories (and their attendant evidences)? How do we reconcile this with the idea that Noah's flood was a local flood located in the area of the Middle East? Please note: Adam gathered his "righteous" posterity. That does not mean or imply that ALL of his posterity were gathered there. Adam lived longer than Methusaleh. When you look at Hinduism, Buddhism and other Far Eastern philosophies, there are so many correlations/immitations of what Adam and Eve tuaght their posterity and then some of their kids apostatized but kept the outer appearances of the ordinances but I ramble. Nibley covered this topic quite thoroughly though 1
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