Zakuska Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) Which leads us to the following question. Space by definition is a vacuum. Nothingness. So how can 'nothing' be created? If 'nothing' gets created it becomes something other than nothing. Therefore space preexisting even God himself. Edited January 26, 2016 by Zakuska
RevTestament Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 10 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Yes Exodus 3:14 which Jesus quoted in John 8:58 and said that HE was Yahweh in Exodus 3:14. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 9 hours ago, savedwheat said: Amen. I don't believe this is accurate. I believe Jesus was referring to Genesis 17:1 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. In John, Jesus said before Abraham I am. Exodus is referring to Moses who was more than 400 years later. This verse actually points out an error in the translation of the Septuagint which has been carried over into the creeds. Here "Almighty God" is being taken from the Hebrew El Shaddai, which I believe is not properly translated into Almighty God, but that that is a gloss of the translators of the Septuagint. El Gibbor means Mighty God. I believe El Shaddai is actually Jesus, and that is the inference He was making, and why the Jews picked up stones to throw at Him. Abram was before Abraham. Moses was not. I believe El Shaddai is a phonetic conjunction which refers to the Power that weans from the breast. So He is appearing and telling Abraham that it is time to grow up, and be perfect before Him. Cheers
Anakin7 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the clarification, both show who Jesus was before he came to earth. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 26, 2016 by Anakin7 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 27 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Which leads us to the following question. Space by definition is a vacuum. Nothingness. So how can 'nothing' be created? If 'nothing' gets created it becomes something other than nothing. Therefore space preexisting even God himself. Two different definitions of space there. The limits of the Big Bang don't include or preclude a God.
Gray Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Zakuska said: Which leads us to the following question. Space by definition is a vacuum. Nothingness. So how can 'nothing' be created? If 'nothing' gets created it becomes something other than nothing. Therefore space preexisting even God himself. Empty space isn't exactly nothing. It has a shape, for one thing. And It's not totally devoid of "stuff". http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/matter/ Quote Empty space, we have discovered, is actually not empty at all. Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later. And space itself can either be almost flat or curved, depending on the amount of matter it contains. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: Empty space isn't exactly nothing. It has a shape, for one thing. And It's not totally devoid of "stuff". http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/matter/ I'm no scientist (that's for darn sure), but didn't both Joseph Smith AND thermodynamics teach that matter/energy cannot ever be created or destroyed?
Gray Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm no scientist (that's for darn sure), but didn't both Joseph Smith AND thermodynamics teach that matter/energy cannot ever be created or destroyed? They do, but that may not hold up at the quantum level, just like Newtonian physics. But of course it's all the subject of ongoing inquiry. Who knows where it will end up?
thesometimesaint Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm no scientist (that's for darn sure), but didn't both Joseph Smith AND thermodynamics teach that matter/energy cannot ever be created or destroyed? Thermodynamics says they are interchangeable. E=MC(squared). That there is no net lose, just a change of state. JS also said that the elements are eternal. While I'd dearly love for him to explain what he meant. The elements as we know know them are not eternal.
Doctor Steuss Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 On Sunday, January 24, 2016 at 8:06 PM, savedwheat said: Jesus created all things the Bible says so [...] Did Jesus create His own body?
Zakuska Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm no scientist (that's for darn sure), but didn't both Joseph Smith AND thermodynamics teach that matter/energy cannot ever be created or destroyed? Even when matter turns into energy it's still something and not nothing. Anialation becomes the real question. When the super colider smashes atoms together all the particles (inteligences) that make up that atom fly appart. The question is do those finer particles cease to be (anialation) or are they simply absorbed back into the surrounding atoms. Or as energy and heat? One of the fears with the atom bomb is that it would set of a chain reaction that could not be stopped and all matter in the universe would cease to be. But even an Abomb has a finite yield. So something breaks down to an equilibrium. Edited January 26, 2016 by Zakuska
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 55 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Thermodynamics says they are interchangeable. E=MC(squared). That there is no net lose, just a change of state. JS also said that the elements are eternal. While I'd dearly love for him to explain what he meant. The elements as we know know them are not eternal. 34 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Even when matter turns into energy it's still something and not nothing. Exactly my point. Both science and Mormonism deny in every way the idea of a starting point with NOTHING (no time/no space). Whether energy became matter or matter became energy, no net loss. They have always existed. Joseph knew that, and knew that God's creation of the world ( or the "universe") didn't violate that. And that's probably what Joseph meant by calling the elements eternal. Not the elements as we know them (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon), but the elements of matter/energy, the building blocks. Edited January 26, 2016 by JLHPROF
Zakuska Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 42 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Exactly my point. Both science and Mormonism deny in every way the idea of a starting point with NOTHING (no time/no space). Whether energy became matter or matter became energy, no net loss. They have always existed. Joseph knew that, and knew that God's creation of the world ( or the "universe") didn't violate that. And that's probably what Joseph meant by calling the elements eternal. Not the elements as we know them (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon), but the elements of matter/energy, the building blocks. Mormonism is the only religion that agrees with science on this point. At least only Christian religion. All other religions paint God as a master magician. A wizard really. Who can make things appesr out of thin air. Pharaohs magicians were only able to mimic the signs Moses did. God was able to actually molecularly change a staff of wood into a living breathing biting serpent.
thesometimesaint Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Exactly my point. Both science and Mormonism deny in every way the idea of a starting point with NOTHING (no time/no space). Whether energy became matter or matter became energy, no net loss. They have always existed. Joseph knew that, and knew that God's creation of the world ( or the "universe") didn't violate that. And that's probably what Joseph meant by calling the elements eternal. Not the elements as we know them (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon), but the elements of matter/energy, the building blocks. Time, and space as we know them started with the Big Bang. All energy and matter were bound up into a infinitely hot, infinitely dense small point(A singularity). What, if anything, was before then is not known. But I like the idea of God saying let there be light and it is.
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Time, and space as we know them started with the Big Bang. All energy and matter were bound up into a infinitely hot, infinitely dense small point(A singularity). What, if anything, was before then is not known. But I like the idea of God saying let there be light and it is. Where God got the energy and matter for this creationary period doesn't really bother me much. A singularity is as good an answer as any. As for "time" starting then...if it happened at the start of the universe/creation, there was a before it happened. Time cannot be removed.
The Nehor Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Where God got the energy and matter for this creationary period doesn't really bother me much. A singularity is as good an answer as any. As for "time" starting then...if it happened at the start of the universe/creation, there was a before it happened. Time cannot be removed. That assumes time is not independent in each Universe.
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 14 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That assumes time is not independent in each Universe. Oh, I'm sure that it is. Time is different where God lives, why wouldn't it be seen differently in another universe/creation. I am under no illusion about time being a fixed concept. I am sure it is quite variable in how it operates. But an absence of before and after is simply impossible as far as I'm concerned. If something happens there was a before it happened and an after it happened. For there to be no time nothing could ever happen.
Zakuska Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 Dory: Well, you can't never let anything happen to him. Then nothing would ever happen to him. Not much fun for little Harpo. 1
savedwheat Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 Jesus has the power to go down to the grave and take Himself up so He produced His own body. Destroy this temple," He said, referring to His body, "and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). The Holy Spirit came upon Mary to conceive Mary.
savedwheat Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father for purposes of creation. Before that there were just the 3 Persons in the Godhead the Trinity.
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 savedwheat thank you for sharing we agree on The Holy Ghost coming upon Mary and for conception purposes, and Jesus Christ had power to lay down His life and take it up again. He also is the Vice Monarch [ The 2nd Person] of The Universe next to His Father who is The Monarch of The Universe. A Anchient Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godhead - Trinity. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
savedwheat Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 Too bad Mormons reject the God who was alone from everlasting so they are going to Hell. Bringing God down to your level is not only insufficient but deficient for atonement.
Calm Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 15 hours ago, savedwheat said: Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father for purposes of creation. Before that there were just the 3 Persons in the Godhead the Trinity. So does this mean you believe God has changed over time (adding being the Son and the Father to whatever they were before)?
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Too bad Mormons reject the God who was alone from everlasting so they are going to Hell. Bringing God down to your level is not only insufficient but deficient for atonement. Actually, the Mormon belief is that God WANTS to bring us up to his level. Why else would he create us? He doesn't need a bunch of pets to worship him for eternity.
Teancum Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 18 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Too bad Mormons reject the God who was alone from everlasting so they are going to Hell. Bringing God down to your level is not only insufficient but deficient for atonement. Jesus said judge not lest you be judged. I think based on this you are heading straight to the Hell you imagine Mormons are headed for.
Avatar4321 Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: Too bad Mormons reject the God who was alone from everlasting so they are going to Hell. Bringing God down to your level is not only insufficient but deficient for atonement. You keep saying that. Yet you haven't persuaded anyone you are correct. Why should any of us take what you have to say seriously?
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