savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 1 Tim. 6.16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. Alone only same dif. Neh. 9.5 everlasting to everlasting. Most versions agree. KJV got it wrong.
Judd Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Go ahead and post it again so I can reply to it. You asked why Mormons don't believe Jesus created all things. The reference from The Book of Mormon reads: And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 So why don't you believe your own BofM?
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: So why don't you believe your own BofM? We do. The flaw is your definition of creation.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Nothing beside God so God alone. Since Jesus is God and Father is God they are one being. Jesus created all things so completely alone. First time God created, first time time began. It's irrelevant if He created another timeline for something else as that would be meaningless speculation. http://wordcategory.blogspot.com/2014/07/difference-between-alone-only-lonely.html There is a difference Alone"Alone" is used to say 'without anyone or anything else'. He was all alone. The shoes alone cost £100. I don't like going out alone at night. Only "Only" is used to say 'unique of something'. It was the only way that we could do it. Kevin was the only person to complain. Lonely"Lonely" is a feeling. For example you are feeling lonely because you miss someone. You can be alone without being lonely, and vice versa. He was lonely without his wife and children. She was a lonely child with few friends. 1
Judd Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: So why don't you believe your own BofM? I haven't made any declarations of any beliefs.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Of course the BofM is wrong. One of the ways you can know it is wrong is it quotes from the KJV NT when the BofM gold plates were 600 BC. That's physically impossible. what quote are you talking about? I'm confused. We quote you from the Book of Mormon showing you that we believe Christ created all things and you say the Book of Mormon is wrong for saying it when you have a whole thread saying we don't believe it. Which is it? Is the Book of Mormon wrong about Christ creating all things or are we wrong for not believing Christ created all things? Make up your mind. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Yes the BofM is wrong sometimes and right other times. For example what was suppose to be written in 600 BC is directly quoting the KJV which is impossible timewise. So why don't you believe the BofM when it says Jesus created all things?
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Yes the BofM is wrong sometimes and right other times. For example what was suppose to be written in 600 BC is directly quoting the KJV which is impossible timewise. So why don't you believe the BofM when it says Jesus created all things? No, the Book of Mormon from 600 BC is quoting the original Biblical Hebrew. Joseph was inspired to use the KJV wording translation of the original text. And you have yet to show anyone saying Jesus DIDN'T create all things so why are you beating that particular dead horse. Edited January 24, 2016 by JLHPROF
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, savedwheat said: So why don't you believe your own BofM? we do. The problem is you dont have a clue what we believe. Read the Book of Mormon. It contains the fulness of the Gospel. 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, savedwheat said: Why are Mormons obsessed with believing they always existed alongside God? The feeling that comes over me is I feel pride if that were true and it is not a good feeling. I prefer the humility of accepting that God was alone from everlasting in His Triune nature. And the second part of that question is why do Mormons reject Jesus created all things? I think these are the two foundational questions that really need to be addressed. Then you have to talk about are you going to be a god of a planet or not? Some Mormons are into that some not. So I assume that's why they break off into 150 different sects of Mormonism. If I can show you Rev. 2 & 3 is the 7 church periods will you reject the idea that the church disappeared for 1800 years? First of all, we Latter-day Saints feel the same thing (no doubt) the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost feel about existing forever -- and that Is a most profound and solemn humility. The reason why the thought of it creates a feeling of pride in you is because you don't understand it ; and you likely don't understand it because you don't want to understand it. Next, the LDS scriptures make it quite plain that Jesus Christ created ALL THINGS, even participating in the creation of men and women as they existed in their premortal spiritual state prior to coming to earth to take upon themselves mortal bodies of flesh and blood. The following verse of scripture from our Book of Moses reveals Christ even created the preexistent spirits of men. (When read in light of the chapter that follows, the verse quoted below is clearly understood to be speaking of the spiritual creation of mankind, not the physical creation. 26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten (Jesus Christ), which was with me from the beginning: LET US MAKE MAN in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Moses 2) Edited January 24, 2016 by Bobbieaware
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 I know some things. I know you think always existed when the Bible says you didn't. I now you don't teach Jesus created all things because if you didn't you wouldn't accept you always existed. I know the BofM quoted the KJV when that is impossible because the BofM came from 600 BC. I know the gospel of mormonism can be lost on you once saved which violates John 10.28. I also think it is wrong that you get to go to heaven for rejecting Jesus.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 11 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Yes the BofM is wrong sometimes and right other times. For example what was suppose to be written in 600 BC is directly quoting the KJV which is impossible timewise. So why don't you believe the BofM when it says Jesus created all things? Again CFR for any quote that is impossible timewise. Why do you insist on claiming that we don't believe what we explicitly tell you we believe?!
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, the Book of Mormon from 600 BC is quoting the original Biblical Hebrew. Joseph was inspired to use the KJV wording translation of the original text. And you have yet to show anyone saying Jesus DIDN'T create all things so why are you beating that particular dead horse. Actually Smith is caught quoting Peter quoting Moses not quoting Moses. There is about 30 examples of this fraud in various quotes that could not have been known in 600 BC. The Bible says Jesus created all things; BofM says Jesus created all things, so why do you reject it?
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: Actually Smith is caught quoting Peter quoting Moses not quoting Moses. There is about 30 examples of this fraud in various quotes that could not have been known in 600 BC. The Bible says Jesus created all things; BofM says Jesus created all things, so why do you reject it? 1. Where. 2. Nobody has rejected this. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 hours ago, savedwheat said: Why are Mormons obsessed with believing they always existed alongside God? The feeling that comes over me is I feel pride if that were true and it is not a good feeling. I prefer the humility of accepting that God was alone from everlasting in His Triune nature. And the second part of that question is why do Mormons reject Jesus created all things? I think these are the two foundational questions that really need to be addressed. Then you have to talk about are you going to be a god of a planet or not? Some Mormons are into that some not. So I assume that's why they break off into 150 different sects of Mormonism. If I can show you Rev. 2 & 3 is the 7 church periods will you reject the idea that the church disappeared for 1800 years? More evidence from the LDS scriptures that Christ created ALL things: 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. 32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. (Moses 1) 2
Glenn101 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Jesus Christ created all things, at least all things that were created, according to John. "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." These verses say at least two things, if we accept the thesis that "The Word" is speaking of Jesus the Christ. One is that Jesus and the Father are two separate entities. Of course there is ample evidence of this in many other scriptures, but it is not the real question. Verse 3 states in part "without him was not any thing made that was made" which can be interpreted that there were things existing already that Jesus did have to create. Now, savedwheat may interpret the scriptures any way that he may wish. He may even interpret the LDS scriptures any way that he wishes. But his interpretations are not in line with all of the scriptures and with the prophets that have provided the interpretations. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: I know some things. I know you think always existed when the Bible says you didn't. I now you don't teach Jesus created all things because if you didn't you wouldn't accept you always existed. I know the BofM quoted the KJV when that is impossible because the BofM came from 600 BC. I know the gospel of mormonism can be lost on you once saved which violates John 10.28. I also think it is wrong that you get to go to heaven for rejecting Jesus. The Bible doesn't say we didn't exist before the world was made. I've already cfred the quotes. You've not responded yet. The gospel of Mormonism statement makes no sense. And we don't reject Jesus. He is the only way to heaven.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 The Bible says you didn't exist since it says God was alone from everlasting and Jesus created all things and nothing beside Him before time and space. Therefore, in Mormonism Jesus is a lesser being which by definition can't atone for anything.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: More evidence from the LDS scriptures that Christ created ALL things: 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. 32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. (Moses 1) Since you believe Jesus created all things then it is impossible you always existed.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: Jesus Christ created all things, at least all things that were created, according to John. "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." These verses say at least two things, if we accept the thesis that "The Word" is speaking of Jesus the Christ. One is that Jesus and the Father are two separate entities. Of course there is ample evidence of this in many other scriptures, but it is not the real question. Verse 3 states in part "without him was not any thing made that was made" which can be interpreted that there were things existing already that Jesus did have to create. Now, savedwheat may interpret the scriptures any way that he may wish. He may even interpret the LDS scriptures any way that he wishes. But his interpretations are not in line with all of the scriptures and with the prophets that have provided the interpretations. You don't have to assume Jesus is the word it says Jesus in the word a few verses down. Has to be one being because the word was with God and the word is God. You can't be God unless you are God.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, savedwheat said: You can't be God unless you are God. Nothing like a meaningless tautology to show a lack of reason and logic. 2
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 I've had a grumpy day, I'm currently on a cut after a long bulk (decrease calories below weight maintenance while increasing protein to maintain muscle mass), and I'm tired. So my ability to engage in a civil manner is almost nil. So all I'll say is that our interpretation is cooler and far more correct than your interpretation.
Bobbieaware Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 40 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Since you believe Jesus created all things then it is impossible you always existed. Jesus created all things except for divine intelligence. As constiituent parts of God's divine intelligence, we always existed within the realm of the divine mind. This is why the Doctrine and Covenants teaches us that prior to being born as spirits we were known as "intelligence, or the light of truth." God's intelligence is eternal and because our intelligence first issues forth fom his intelligence alone, our individual uniqueness as a child of God is co-eternal with him. We exist now because we have always existed as a beloved and unique part of his heart and mind from all eternity.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Jesus created all things without exception. There is nothing beside God called intelligences because the Bible says there is none beside God, none before Him. You were created from whence you did not exist. Pride makes you think you are co-equal when Jesus is only co-equal with the Father. Sounds like Satan speaking in that pride: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" (Is. 14.14)
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