savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Why are Mormons obsessed with believing they always existed alongside God? The feeling that comes over me is I feel pride if that were true and it is not a good feeling. I prefer the humility of accepting that God was alone from everlasting in His Triune nature. And the second part of that question is why do Mormons reject Jesus created all things? I think these are the two foundational questions that really need to be addressed. Then you have to talk about are you going to be a god of a planet or not? Some Mormons are into that some not. So I assume that's why they break off into 150 different sects of Mormonism. If I can show you Rev. 2 & 3 is the 7 church periods will you reject the idea that the church disappeared for 1800 years? Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) If Jesus created all things... how could Wisdom be created/brought forth by God as his first creation? Apparently when the Scriptures say Christ created all things he and his father are excepted from being among those things created. But of course... does a pot get created before the potter forms the clay into a pot? Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1) Obsession, a clinical mental disorder, is not a word I'd apply to the doctrine of eternal intelligences 2) Pride is a subjective feeling. I feel humbled to be organized and formed in the image and mind of God from the eternal elements 3) It's a pretty foundational Mormon doctrine from scripture through to our temple rituals that Jesus created the universe unset the direction of the Father 4) 150 sects with the 1st absolutely dominating the rest number wise is impressive compared to the rest of Christendom. 5) Sure. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, savedwheat said: The feeling that comes over me is I feel pride if that were true and it is not a good feeling. I prefer the humility of accepting that God was alone from everlasting in His Triune nature. Preference doesn't change reality. And as Paul taught us - Phillippians 4:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: It is no robbery for we who were created in the form and image of God to be equal with God. 14 minutes ago, savedwheat said: And the second part of that question is why do Mormons reject Jesus created all things? Personal beliefs aside (as I have some less traditional of my own), the average Mormon believes Christ created all things, just not from nothing.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, halconero said: 1) Obsession, a clinical mental disorder, is not a word I'd apply to the doctrine of eternal intelligences 2) Pride is a subjective feeling. I feel humbled to be organized and formed in the image and mind of God from the eternal elements 3) It's a pretty foundational Mormon doctrine from scripture through to our temple rituals that Jesus created the universe unset the direction of the Father 4) 150 sects with the 1st absolutely dominating the rest number wise is impressive compared to the rest of Christendom. 5) Sure. Jesus created all things the Bible says so there can't be something beside God before time and space. In Christianity "little flock "(Luke 12.32) are saved only. I feel pride thinking I always existed. I think that's what Satan wants people to believe they always existed to feed their pride. Obsession or idol.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Preference doesn't change reality. And as Paul taught us - Phillippians 4:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: It is no robbery for we who were created in the form and image of God to be equal with God. Personal beliefs aside (as I have some less traditional of my own), the average Mormon believes Christ created all things, just not from nothing. Jesus was equal with the Father. To be equal is one being. If Jesus created all things then there was nothing beside God before that so you couldn't have always existed. He couldn't have created out of something other than God because then Jesus didn't create all things. God creates out of nothing from Himself.
volgadon Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 As it says in 3 Peter, with great power comes great responsibility.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 18 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Jesus created all things the Bible says so there can't be something beside God before time and space. In Christianity "little flock "(Luke 12.32) are saved only. I feel pride thinking I always existed. I think that's what Satan wants people to believe they always existed to feed their pride. Obsession or idol. 1) Eh, the notion that Jesus created something out of nothing isn't supported by the Bible. Try Greek philosophy/gnosticism if you want to go down that route. Such would be adopted about 300-400 years after Jesus' crucifixion. 2) Cool. Good thing that the Latter-day Saint flock is a small subset compared to the roughly 285 million Evangelical Christians. 3) Then you should repent. Pride generally isn't the reaction of Latter-day Saints to this doctrine. 4) Neither...probably the best descriptor is "little understood and discussed doctrine that is nonetheless very important."
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, savedwheat said: God creates out of nothing from Himself. Following that logic God is his own creation and created nothing from something that preexisted. ie God Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
carbon dioxide Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 If all things means everything then did Jesus create the Father and Holy Ghost? If Jesus created heaven, where was Jesus before he created heaven?
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 36 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Jesus created all things the Bible says so there can't be something beside God before time and space. In Christianity "little flock "(Luke 12.32) are saved only. I feel pride thinking I always existed. I think that's what Satan wants people to believe they always existed to feed their pride. Obsession or idol. can you write in full thoughts and sentences? These fragments are not fun to translate.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 35 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Jesus was equal with the Father. To be equal is one being. If Jesus created all things then there was nothing beside God before that so you couldn't have always existed. He couldn't have created out of something other than God because then Jesus didn't create all things. God creates out of nothing from Himself. that makes no sense and considering jesus stated that the Father is greater than He is it makes your analysis a bit off.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, carbon dioxide said: If all things means everything then did Jesus create the Father and Holy Ghost? If Jesus created heaven, where was Jesus before he created heaven? Obviously since Jesus is in the Godhead, Jesus did not create the Father and the Spirit. The Godhead was alone from everlasting before creating Heaven. There is no place just God alone.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: Obviously since Jesus is in the Godhead, Jesus did not create the Father and the Spirit. The Godhead was alone from everlasting before creating Heaven. There is no place just God alone. Except if Jesus and the holy spirit where with God when he created then God wasn't alone.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 God is alone since God is the 3 Persons before time and space. Jesus created time and space. You can say things like council of the Godhead.
Judd Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: why do Mormons reject Jesus created all things? Mosiah 3:8 (Book of Mormon): And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. Regarding the obsession comment, I'll admit I'm somewhat baffled as I'd imagine you'd probably have an incredibly hard time even finding that referenced on this forum over the years. A lot less frequent than one would expect from an obsession.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: God is alone since God is the 3 Persons before time and space. Jesus created time and space. You can say things like council of the Godhead. You keep stating these things as facts but provide absolutely no proof or scriptural evidence. Consider this a formal CFR under board rules - I want a scripture that specifically says: 1. There was NOTHING anywhere before God began the creation 2. That all three members of the Godhead existed before the creation of EVERYTHING else 3. That the Godhead were completely alone before creating time and space 4. That this was the first time God had ever created things despite having existed forever
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Judd said: Mosiah 3:8 (Book of Mormon): Regarding the obsession comment, I'll admit I'm somewhat baffled as I'd imagine you'd probably have an incredibly hard time even finding that referenced on this forum over the years. A lot less frequent than one would expect from an obsession. Of course the BofM is wrong. One of the ways you can know it is wrong is it quotes from the KJV NT when the BofM gold plates were 600 BC. That's physically impossible.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Of course the BofM is wrong. One of the ways you can know it is wrong is it quotes from the KJV NT when the BofM gold plates were 600 BC. That's physically impossible. - huh? The parts that quote the NT come AFTER Christ's life 33AD. And what is "quoted" are the words of Christ being spoken by Christ. Are you saying Christ changed his mind? The parts that are from 600BC quote Isaiah. Edited January 24, 2016 by JLHPROF
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You keep stating these things as facts but provide absolutely no proof or scriptural evidence. Consider this a formal CFR under board rules - I want a scripture that specifically says: 1. There was NOTHING anywhere before God began the creation 2. That all three members of the Godhead existed before the creation of EVERYTHING else 3. That the Godhead were completely alone before creating time and space 4. That this was the first time God had ever created things despite having existed forever Nothing beside God so God alone. Since Jesus is God and Father is God they are one being. Jesus created all things so completely alone. First time God created, first time time began. It's irrelevant if He created another timeline for something else as that would be meaningless speculation.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: Nothing beside God so God alone. Since Jesus is God and Father is God they are one being. Jesus created all things so completely alone. First time God created, first time time began. It's irrelevant if He created another timeline for something else as that would be meaningless speculation. That is not an appropriate response to a CFR. Please answer the CFR or retract your claims as per board rules. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 God of the Bible "who alone" (1 Tim. 6.16) was "from everlasting" (Neh. 9.5). Jesus said I AM. Father said I AM so one being. Jesus created all things. 4th point irrelevant.
Judd Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Of course the BofM is wrong. One of the ways you can know it is wrong is it quotes from the KJV NT when the BofM gold plates were 600 BC. That's physically impossible. You asked why Mormons didn't believe Jesus created all things. I referenced a passage from The Book of Mormon that offers a complete contradiction of your assertion. Did you wish to address that? 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Go ahead and post it again so I can reply to it.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: God of the Bible "who alone" (1 Tim. 6.16) was "from everlasting" (Neh. 9.5). Jesus said I AM. Father said I AM so one being. Jesus created all things. 4th point irrelevant. I Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. No mention of being alone. Nehemiah 9:5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the Lord your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise. No mention of everlasting anything. Points 2-4 - no reference provided. CFR not met. You realize you are convincing nobody of anything right? 2
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