DNA vs Book of Mormon (INCREDIBLE New Evidence)

[Jim Stiles]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Christian scrolls found sealed in a cave in China also state that Jesus was born in the city of Jerusalem:

“When Jesus Messiah was born, the world saw clear signs in heaven and earth. A new star that could be seen everywhere appeared in heaven above…At about this time, the One was born in the country of Ephrath in the city of Jerusalem.”

Not really a goof in either case.

CFR?  Was the prophet Micah incorrect?  No mention of the "Land of Jerusalem," just Bethlehem Ephratah.

Quote

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Bethlehem is not at Jerusalem.

Do not insult my intelligence.  Lehi's fathers, because he was from the half-tribe of Ephraim, were from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, to use a newer term for the area, not Judah, where Jerusalem is located.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#/media/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg

 

You are probably the descendants of immigrants as most Americans are

I have family in Bukovina Tatrzanka Poland.

If I were to speak of the "land of my forefathers" it would be Poland, not Bukovina.  When speaking to foreigners about where one is from, one names a city with which they would be familiar- not a podunk village a few miles away from the city.

Did you expect him to say "27.3 kilometers from Jerusalem"?

[Jim Stiles]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You are probably the descendants of immigrants as most Americans are

I have family in Bukovina Tatrzanka Poland.

If I were to speak of the "land of my forefathers" it would be Poland, not Bukovina.  When speaking to foreigners about where one is from, one names a city with which they would be familiar- not a podunk village a few miles away from the city.

Did you expect him to say "27.3 kilometers from Jerusalem"?

That is awfully close to the modern day border of Slovakia.  Are you ethnically Polish or Slovak?  The village has its own English language Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukowina_Tatrza%C5%84ska

Please correct me, if my information is incorrect.  Was Lehi from the half-tribe of Ephraim?  If so, then his forefathers were from the Northern Kingdom, not Jerusalem as Alma 7:10 says.

Quote

Alma 7:10 “He shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers.”

Edited February 17, 2016 by Jim Stiles

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

That is awfully close to the modern day border of Slovakia.  Are you ethnically Polish or Slovak?  The village has its own English language Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukowina_Tatrza%C5%84ska

Please correct me, if my information is incorrect.  Was Lehi from the half-tribe of Ephraim?  If so, then his forefathers were from the Northern Kingdom, not Jerusalem as Alma 7:10 says.

Polish Goral.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorals  Beautiful place- I was there this year.  But the reality is that even if you go back a few generations, one's ethnicity could be virtually anything unless all sides of your family are from the same town in which case you probably have two heads anyway.  Genetic diversity is essential to survival.

I don't think you caught my point.  Even in this example, I would probably say that the "land of my forefathers" was Poland, and if pressed, say "Krakow" although Krakow is not a Goral city.  You are trying to tell the person the nation and region you are from- they know nothing about the local cultures.

You did not know about Gorals until a minute ago- there would be no need for me to describe meaningless details of my ethnicity in discussing "my forefathers" to someone a few continents away

Quote

For most Gorals today, the decisive factor in their self-identification with a nationality is not ethnic but territorial. For example, those living in areas under a long tradition of belonging to the Polish state identify themselves as Polish, while those living in Slovakia have identified themselves as Slovaks, with notable exceptions to this rule on both sides of the border. While the origin of the Goral dialect is Polish,^[1] the language of Gorals in Slovakia and in the Czech Republic is gradually shifting and increasingly becoming more similar to the literary standard in their respective countries. Silesian Gorals of the Czech Republic identify themselves on the nationality level as Poles and are members of the Polish minority in Zaolzie, which is proved by their communal activity – annual Gorolski Święto festival held in Jablunkov (Jabłonków) is a showcase of a local Polish Goral traditions and is organized by the PZKO (Polish Cultural and Educational Union). This Gorol festival preserves the traditions of the Polish nationality group in Zaolzie.^[2] It is the largest cultural and folklore festival in Zaolzie area gathering thousands of spectators each day of festivities.

One would not go into this kind of detail if someone asked "Where are you from"?

Besides that, these details are irrelevant to the message of the BOM anyway and are just a diversion ignoring the spiritual truths found therein.

Edited February 17, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Do you understand that the distance between Bethlehem and Jerusalem is about 6 miles?  A mere stroll.

Edited February 17, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

Samuel was a prophet.  He was not a priest.  He was not a high priest.  He was categorically unqualified to serve in either capacity.  Even Jesus could not serve as either a priest or a high priest.

You need to spend some time reading the Bible, Jim.  For example, non-Jews like Jethro (the HP of Midian, and father-in-law of Moses), and Melchizedek, were priests. Joseph's father-in-law was HP of On in Egypt.  Jeremiah was both a priest and a prophet.  John the Baptist was both priest and prophet, and his father Zacharias had been the high priest at the temple in Jerusalem.  As for Jesus, you need to read the book of Hebrews.  He was of the tribe of Judah, yet became the high priest.  How is that possible?  You need to think this through more deeply.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

Bethlehem is not at Jerusalem.

I see that you didn't bother to read my summary, which shows conclusively that Bethlehem is in the "land of Jerusalem," i.e., in the Jerusalem district.  I have walked to Bethlehem from Jerusalem and back on several occasions.  It is about 5 miles.  Next you'll be telling me that San Pedro, California, is not part of the City of Los Angeles. Or that Van Nuys is not part of Los Angeles County.

Do not insult my intelligence.  Lehi's fathers, because he was from the half-tribe of Ephraim, were from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, to use a newer term for the area, not Judah, where Jerusalem is located.

.........................................................................   

Wikipedia didn't help you figure out that Lehi and his family lived in Jerusalem all his days (I Nephi 1:4), or that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh (Alma 10:3), not Ephraim.  Thus, although his forefathers likely came from North Israel a century earlier (to escape the Assyrians), he was truly a Jerusalemite.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

CFR?  Was the prophet Micah incorrect?  No mention of the "Land of Jerusalem," just Bethlehem Ephratah.

Correct.  That is what the Bible says, and every little child knows that Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus.  Joseph Smith likely knew it just as well as all of us did when growing up.  So it is rather remarkable that the Book of Mormon doesn't say "Bethlehem."  If the Book of Mormon were a forgery, it would say "Bethlehem."  Instead it says something different, but also correct, because Bethlehem was a small village in the Jerusalem district.  We did not know that until modern scholarship demonstrated it to us.  Instead of your "either or" mindset, you need to be aware of the alternative "both and" approach.

[Kevin Christensen]

7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Samuel was a prophet.  He was not a priest.  He was not a high priest.  He was categorically unqualified to serve in either capacity.  Even Jesus could not serve as either a priest or a high priest.

Ahem.

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/OurGreatHighPriest.pdf

which elaborates on this: Hebrews 4

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

and this: Hebrews 5.

 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

 BULLSEYE!!!

[Rajah Manchou]

8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

CFR?  Was the prophet Micah incorrect?  No mention of the "Land of Jerusalem," just Bethlehem Ephratah.

 The reference is the Hsu-T'ing Mi-Shi-So Sutra written by a Christian missionary named Alopen in 635 AD. 



The original scrolls have the name Jerusalem written as 烏梨師歛 (wūlíshīhān) with the modern translation as 耶路撒冷 (yélùsǎlěng).

The original translations are hard to find. But If you have $30,850 you can buy it on Amazon

My point is that Alopen was from Syria, and was familiar with Jerusalem, Bethlehem, the prophet Micah, and the Gospels of Luke and Matthew. He didn't make a goof when he wrote that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. And neither did Alma when he said the same thing 720 years earlier.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[thesometimesaint]

I live in a small city just east of Redlands. To be more accurate in southern California. For some unfamiliar with where my city is, it is about 80miles east of Los Angeles; California.

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You need to spend some time reading the Bible, Jim.  For example, non-Jews like Jethro (the HP of Midian, and father-in-law of Moses), and Melchizedek, were priests. Joseph's father-in-law was HP of On in Egypt.  Jeremiah was both a priest and a prophet.  John the Baptist was both priest and prophet, and his father Zacharias had been the high priest at the temple in Jerusalem.  As for Jesus, you need to read the book of Hebrews.  He was of the tribe of Judah, yet became the high priest.  How is that possible?  You need to think this through more deeply.

Jethro was not a priest in the temple.  He died before the temple was constructed.  Same is true of Melchizedek and Joseph's father-in-law in Egypt.

Jeremiah and John the Baptist were not priests in the temple.

Jesus did not hold the Aaronic priesthood and could not serve as priest or high priest in the temple.  Jesus is the high priest of the order of Melchizedek, but that priestly order replaced the temple.

[Jim Stiles]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 The reference is the Hsu-T'ing Mi-Shi-So Sutra written by a Christian missionary named Alopen in 635 AD. 



The original scrolls have the name Jerusalem written as 烏梨師歛 (wūlíshīhān) with the modern translation as 耶路撒冷 (yélùsǎlěng).

The original translations are hard to find. But If you have $30,850 you can buy it on Amazon

My point is that Alopen was from Syria, and was familiar with Jerusalem, Bethlehem, the prophet Micah, and the Gospels of Luke and Matthew. He didn't make a goof when he wrote that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. And neither did Alma when he said the same thing 720 years earlier.

Thanks for the reference.

Yes, he did goof.  Just like Joseph Smith Jr. goofed.  So much for the Book of Mormon being the most correct book on earth.

[Jim Stiles]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I see that you didn't bother to read my summary, which shows conclusively that Bethlehem is in the "land of Jerusalem," i.e., in the Jerusalem district.  I have walked to Bethlehem from Jerusalem and back on several occasions.  It is about 5 miles.  Next you'll be telling me that San Pedro, California, is not part of the City of Los Angeles. Or that Van Nuys is not part of Los Angeles County.

Wikipedia didn't help you figure out that Lehi and his family lived in Jerusalem all his days (I Nephi 1:4), or that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh (Alma 10:3), not Ephraim.  Thus, although his forefathers likely came from North Israel a century earlier (to escape the Assyrians), he was truly a Jerusalemite.

Joseph Smith goofed.  Alma did not say the Jerusalem district, he said "at Jerusalem."  No knowledgeable person would say Jerusalem to indicate Bethlehem.

Thanks for the correction.  Lehi was of the half-tribe of Manasseh and his ancestral lands were not in Jerusalem but in Samaria.  For Americans, a hundred years is a long time.  Non-americans think differently.  My ancestral lands are in England, but my family has been in North America at least three hundred years.

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Do you understand that the distance between Bethlehem and Jerusalem is about 6 miles?  A mere stroll.

Yes, and a society without motor transport would distinguish between the two locations.

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Polish Goral.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorals  Beautiful place- I was there this year.  But the reality is that even if you go back a few generations, one's ethnicity could be virtually anything unless all sides of your family are from the same town in which case you probably have two heads anyway.  Genetic diversity is essential to survival.

I don't think you caught my point.  Even in this example, I would probably say that the "land of my forefathers" was Poland, and if pressed, say "Krakow" although Krakow is not a Goral city.  You are trying to tell the person the nation and region you are from- they know nothing about the local cultures.

You did not know about Gorals until a minute ago- there would be no need for me to describe meaningless details of my ethnicity in discussing "my forefathers" to someone a few continents away

One would not go into this kind of detail if someone asked "Where are you from"?

Besides that, these details are irrelevant to the message of the BOM anyway and are just a diversion ignoring the spiritual truths found therein.

The "spiritual truths" in the Book of Mormon contradict the spiritual truths in the Bible and are not simply not true.

[cdowis]

18 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Bethlehem is not at Jerusalem.

The BOM says "at Jerusalem".  Please look up "at" in the dictionary, and tell us the difference between being born "at" Jerusalem, and "in" Jerusalem. (second request)

Edited February 18, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

The "spiritual truths" in the Book of Mormon contradict the spiritual truths in the Bible and are not simply not true.

A Baptist Minister talks about the Bible and the Book of Mormon

 

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

A Baptist Minister talks about the Bible and the Book of Mormon

 

Jude put it best when he said:

Quote

Jude 1:3-16 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The BOM says "at Jerusalem".  Please look up "at" in the dictionary, and tell us the difference between being born "at" Jerusalem, and "in" Jerusalem. (second request)

At:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/at#English

Quote

Preposition
1. In or very near a particular place.  

In:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in#English

Quote

Preposition
1. Used to indicate location, inclusion, or position within spatial, temporal or other limits

Bethlehem is not in or very near Jerusalem, not for someone for whom motor transport was unknown.

[Gervin]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

The BOM says "at Jerusalem".  Please look up "at" in the dictionary, and tell us the difference between being born "at" Jerusalem, and "in" Jerusalem. (second request)

What do the Mayan glyphs say? (first request)

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 The reference is the Hsu-T'ing Mi-Shi-So Sutra written by a Christian missionary named Alopen in 635 AD. 



The original scrolls have the name Jerusalem written as 烏梨師歛 (wūlíshīhān) with the modern translation as 耶路撒冷 (yélùsǎlěng).

The original translations are hard to find. But If you have $30,850 you can buy it on Amazon

My point is that Alopen was from Syria, and was familiar with Jerusalem, Bethlehem, the prophet Micah, and the Gospels of Luke and Matthew. He didn't make a goof when he wrote that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. And neither did Alma when he said the same thing 720 years earlier.

Also intriguing is the very early account of Jesus’ birth about three miles before arrival in Bethlehem, in Genesis Marias (Papyrus Bodmer V).[1]  This puts it in the vicinity of the Tomb of Rachel, which is about equidistant between Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

---

[1] George T. Zervos, “The Genesis of Mary: The Mary of Faith and the Mary of History,” lecture presented at the annual meeting of the Academy for Temple Studies, March 30, 2015, at BYU, Provo, Utah.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Yes, and a society without motor transport would distinguish between the two locations.

LOL

I looked it up.    Here is one of your EV friends saying it is 6 miles.  I made a mistake and doubled it.  7.1 kilometers.  You should check with him and get your stories straight.

Quote

 

How long would it take to walk six miles?

If you are in good shape, you could walk it in a couple of hours. If the terrain is relatively flat, you could easily cover six miles in an afternoon.

That’s not much of a hike.

If you wanted to walk from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, it’s only six miles so you could start in the morning and be there in the afternoon.

If you ever visit the Holy Land, you’ll see what I mean. The land of Israel is tiny compared to the United States. The whole country is only about 8500 square miles. That’s roughly the size of New Jersey and only a bit smaller than Vermont. From Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south is only 150 miles. For those of us who are used to thinking about the distance between, say, Miami and Seattle, visiting the Holy Land forces us to adopt an entirely different way of thinking.  On a typical tour, you may wake up in Caesarea on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea and end up next to the Sea of Galilee that evening. In between you might visit Mt. Carmel, Megiddo, Nazareth and Cana. Along the way you’ll pass by the sites of many of the Old Testament events. And it’s very typical to start at the Sea of Galilee, visit Capernaum, the Mount of the Beatitudes, Korazin, Jericho and end the day in Jerusalem. It’s a full day but not because of the distance. The visitor to the land of the Bible soon realizes that most of the key events took place within 100 miles of Jerusalem.

 

http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/six-miles-from-jesus/

Of course you did not read my previous post.

If you lived in West Jordan Utah, and were visting Europe and someone asked you where you were from, what would you say?  First you would say "America", and if they asked you where you would say "Salt Lake City"

That is 3 times the distance between Salt Lake and West Jordan.

I walk 3 miles every day for exercise.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

 

Bethlehem is not in or very near Jerusalem, not for someone for whom motor transport was unknown.

It's a half day walk

WALK.  You gotta donkey, it's a couple of hours