Setting the record straight on a false reply to a CFR

[Scott Lloyd]

On consig's now-closed thread about spying, he purported to reply to a CFR that I had issued to someone else:

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By the way, did you ever get around to answering my CFR of yesterday? As I recall, it pertained to your assertion that somebody in general conference (presumably in October of last year) told people not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet. 

Quote

The CFR wasn't directed at me, but my recollection is it was a theme shared by the first two speakers, President ("The Note Has Been Noted") Uchtdorf and Elder ("Stay in the Boat") Ballard.

So I just visited the verbatim text of last October's general conference on line at lds.org. I read through both of President Uchtdorf's sermons (priesthood and general session) and the one by Elder Ballard.

Neither man said anything that could even remotely be construed as an admonition not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.

So it appears consig, without bothering to check, has made a false claim.

It's not my intent here to try to re-open a closed thread, but I did feel that the record should be set straight on this specific matter.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[consiglieri]

26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On consig's now-closed thread about spying, he purported to reply to a CFR that I had issued to someone else:

So I just visited the verbatim text of last October's general conference on line at lds.org. I read through both of President Uchtdorf's sermons (priesthood and general session) and the one by Elder Ballard.

Neither man said anything that could even remotely be construed as an admonition not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.

So it appears consig, without bothering to check, has made a false claim.

It's not my intent here to try to re-open a closed thread, but I did feel that the record should be set straight on this specific matter.

 Please stop overwhelming MDDB with excessive daily OPs, Scott.

All you are lacking is BAN ME! on your avatar's forehead. 

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

 Please stop overwhelming MDDB with excessive daily OPs, Scott.

All you are lacking is BAN ME! on your avatar's forehead. 

[Thinking]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Neither man said anything that could even remotely be construed as an admonition not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.

This quote could be remotely construed as an admonition (without using the phrase anti-mormon).

Quote

It took me a little while before I realized the irony of what I was doing. Of course, researching things for ourselves is not a bad idea. But I was disregarding truth I could rely on and instead found myself being drawn to the often-outlandish claims of Internet lore.

Sometimes, the truth may just seem too straightforward, too plain, and too simple for us to fully appreciate its great value. So we set aside what we have experienced and know to be true in pursuit of more mysterious or complicated information. Hopefully we will learn that when we chase after shadows, we are pursuing matters that have little substance and value.

 

[Raingirl]

9 minutes ago, Thinking said:

This quote could be remotely construed as an admonition (without using the phrase anti-mormon).

 

It doesn't come across to me as "don't read", but as - recognize a pile of dung for what it is and avoid stepping in it and tracking it all over. 

[Zakuska]

4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It doesn't come across to me as "don't read", but as - recognize a pile of dung for what it is and avoid stepping in it and tracking it all over. 

So that means people should abandon their childhood dreams of becoming coprologists?

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, Thinking said:

This quote could be remotely construed as an admonition (without using the phrase anti-mormon).

 

Naw. Not even remotely.

It doesn't say don't look at it. In effect it counsels against letting oneself get swept up by it, just as Elder Ballard admonished on Tuesday night. That is, strengthen yourself with a solid knowledge of Church history and doctrine so that you can deal with the challenges as you encounter them.

And let's be clear: President Uchtdorf here was talking about having undergone a medical procedure and then looking it up on the Internet. He was using it as an analogy.

What was the point of the analogy?
 

Quote

 

Of course, researching things for ourselves is not a bad idea. But I was disregarding truth I could rely on and instead found myself being drawn to the often-outlandish claims of Internet lore.

 

(Emphasis mine.)

So he's saying, in effect, feel free to do your own research and investigation if you are so inclined (it's "not a bad idea"), but in the process, don't get entrapped by false assertions and sophistry that cause you to disregard the truth you have already found.

Again, this is entirely consistent with what Elder Ballard admonished on Tuesday night.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On consig's now-closed thread about spying, he purported to reply to a CFR that I had issued to someone else:

So I just visited the verbatim text of last October's general conference on line at lds.org. I read through both of President Uchtdorf's sermons (priesthood and general session) and the one by Elder Ballard.

Neither man said anything that could even remotely be construed as an admonition not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.

So it appears consig, without bothering to check, has made a false claim.

It's not my intent here to try to re-open a closed thread, but I did feel that the record should be set straight on this specific matter.

I provided you a reference to Elder Andersen's talk on one of the threads where he disparages Google searches about Joseph Smith though does not explicitly state not to go on the internet.  Just can't find which thread that was.

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On consig's now-closed thread about spying, he purported to reply to a CFR that I had issued to someone else:

So I just visited the verbatim text of last October's general conference on line at lds.org. I read through both of President Uchtdorf's sermons (priesthood and general session) and the one by Elder Ballard.

Neither man said anything that could even remotely be construed as an admonition not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.

So it appears consig, without bothering to check, has made a false claim.

It's not my intent here to try to re-open a closed thread, but I did feel that the record should be set straight on this specific matter.

As you quoted me, I said it was to my recollection.

Here is something I found, though, that fills the bill.

Elder Cook from October 2012 General Conference:

Quote

Some have immersed themselves in Internet materials that magnify, exaggerate, and, in some cases, invent shortcomings of early Church leaders. Then they draw incorrect conclusions that can affect testimony. Any who have made these choices can repent and be spiritually renewed.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/can-ye-feel-so-now?lang=eng

 

[consiglieri]

Here is the quote from President Uchtdorf in the last General Conference where he could hardly be plainer:

 

Quote

 

Aren’t we all a little bit like this? After a recent medical procedure, my very capable doctors explained what I needed to do to heal properly. But first I had to relearn something about myself I should have known for a long time: as a patient, I’m not very patient.

Consequently I decided to expedite the healing process by undertaking my own Internet search. I suppose I expected to discover truth of which my doctors were unaware or had tried to keep from me.

It took me a little while before I realized the irony of what I was doing. Of course, researching things for ourselves is not a bad idea. But I was disregarding truth I could rely on and instead found myself being drawn to the often-outlandish claims of Internet lore.

Sometimes, the truth may just seem too straightforward, too plain, and too simple for us to fully appreciate its great value. So we set aside what we have experienced and know to be true in pursuit of more mysterious or complicated information. Hopefully we will learn that when we chase after shadows, we are pursuing matters that have little substance and value.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I provided you a reference to Elder Andersen's talk on one of the threads where he disparages Google searches about Joseph Smith though does not explicitly state not to go on the internet.  Just can't find which thread that was.

Just find the quote -- if you can.

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

So that means people should abandon their childhood dreams of becoming coprologists?

Yes, because that is one of the warning signs of abuse and/or mental illness in childhood.

[HappyJackWagon]

I don't know what exactly was being referred to but this talk from Anderson could be seen as poisoning the well of internet information. There have been other talks that cast aspersions on negative information one may find. The implication then is that we shouldn't trust any negative information.

Quote

We might remind the sincere inquirer that Internet information does not have a “truth” filter. Some information, no matter how convincing, is simply not true.

Of course some negative information is true. This quote followed general discussion about false claims and maligning the prophet. While it doesn't overtly say, "don't look on the internet" it discredits the internet as a source of information and can be taken as a warning. Of course not everything on the internet is true. Of course there is no truth filter but this kind of approach seems to suggest that anything negative I may find on the internet about JS is untrue.

I'll also add that lds.org is a terrible site for finding information. I typed in Anderson truth filter and yielded no results. I had to search in specific conference sessions to find it. I mention this only to suggest that just because it's hard to find specific information on lds.org doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I should have done a google search instead of actually looking on lds.org

 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

As you quoted me, I said it was to my recollection.

Yes, it was a reckless claim, tossed off without your even having checked it. Just as I said.

 

Quote

 

Here is something I found, though, that fills the bill.

Elder Cook from October 2012 General Conference:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/can-ye-feel-so-now?lang=eng

 

 

No, this doesn't work for you either.

He's not saying here to avoid looking at such material. He's warning against "immersing" oneself in it and thereby drawing incorrect conclusions. And for those who have done so he is urging repentance and spiritual renewal.

Wise counsel, consistent with what has been taught by President Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard in the sermons here referenced.

So you are 0 for 3.

What else have you got?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't know what exactly was being referred to but this talk from Anderson could be seen as poisoning the well of internet information. There have been other talks that cast aspersions on negative information one may find. The implication then is that we shouldn't trust any negative information.

Of course some negative information is true. This quote followed general discussion about false claims and maligning the prophet. While it doesn't overtly say, "don't look on the internet" it discredits the internet as a source of information and can be taken as a warning. Of course not everything on the internet is true. Of course there is no truth filter but this kind of approach seems to suggest that anything negative I may find on the internet about JS is untrue.

I'll also add that lds.org is a terrible site for finding information. I typed in Anderson truth filter and yielded no results. I had to search in specific conference sessions to find it. I mention this only to suggest that just because it's hard to find specific information on lds.org doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I should have done a google search instead of actually looking on lds.org

 

What he said is true and relevant?  How can that be poisoning the well?

[consiglieri]

Then there is this from RS Presidency Second Counselor Linda Reeves in the October 2015 GC:

 

Quote

 

Many in today’s world are looking for instant gratification and instant knowledge on the Internet. In contrast, we will be exceedingly blessed if we exercise faith and patience and go to our Heavenly Father, the source of all truth, with our concerns. So many answers and assurances can come through daily searching and studying the scriptures and with sincere and pleading prayer, but there are no such promises on the Internet. The prophet Jacob testifies: “For the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.”⁴

When we are involved in watching, reading, or experiencing anything that is below our Heavenly Father’s standards, it weakens us. Regardless of our age, if what we look at, read, listen to, or choose to do does not meet the Lord’s standards in For the Strength of Youth, turn it off, rip it up, throw it out, and slam the door.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/worthy-of-our-promised-blessings?lang=eng

 

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What he said is true and relevant?  How can that be poisoning the well?

If I said that bishop's counsel does not have a truth filter and could yield dangerous results, both statements would be true but it would also be poisoning the well against a possible resource.

 

[consiglieri]

Then there is this from Elder Ochoa in the 2013 October General Conference:

Quote

 

So much information of man is now at our fingertips. But the Internet is also full of much that is filthy and misleading. Technology has augmented our freedom of speech, but it also gives an unqualified blogger false credibility based on the number of viewers. This is why now, more than ever, we must remember this eternal principle: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:20).

In particular, I caution you not to view filthy images or give your attention to the false accusers of Christ and the Prophet Joseph Smith. Both actions create the same effect: the loss of the Holy Ghost and His protecting, sustaining power. Vice and unhappiness always follow.

My dear brothers and sisters, if you ever come across anything that causes you to question your testimony of the gospel, I plead with you to look up. Look to the Source of all wisdom and truth. Nourish your faith and testimony with the word of God. There are those in the world who seek to undermine your faith by mixing lies with half-truths. This is why it is absolutely critical that you remain constantly worthy of the Spirit.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/look-up?lang=eng

 

[consiglieri]

I expect I am beating a dead horse by this point.

But you already knew all this, didn't you, Scott?

[consiglieri]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, it was a reckless claim, tossed off without your even having checked it. Just as I said.

 

 

No, this doesn't work for you either.

He's not saying here to avoid looking at such material. He's warning against "immersing" oneself in it and thereby drawing incorrect conclusions. And for those who have done so he is urging repentance and spiritual renewal.

Wise counsel, consistent with what has been taught by President Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard in the sermons here referenced.

So you are 0 for 3.

What else have you got?

Yes, it works for me.

You just don't want it to.

And so you refuse to see it.

I will let others decide.

[Teancum]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just find the quote -- if you can.

Yes Sir! 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?lang=eng

Quote

For example, questions concerning the Prophet Joseph Smith are not new. They have been hurled by his critics since this work began. To those of faith who, looking through the colored glasses of the 21st century, honestly question events or statements of the Prophet Joseph from nearly 200 years ago, may I share some friendly advice: For now, give Brother Joseph a break! In a future day, you will have 100 times more information than from all of today’s search engines combined, and it will come from our all-knowing Father in Heaven.¹⁹ Consider the totality of Joseph’s life—born in poverty and given little formal education, he translated the Book of Mormon in less than 90 days.²⁰ Tens of thousands of honest, devoted men and women embraced the cause of the Restoration. At age 38, Joseph sealed his witness with his blood. I testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Settle this in your mind, and move forward!

And another by Elder Andersen in another conference:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith?lang=eng

Quote

 

We might remind the sincere inquirer that Internet information does not have a “truth” filter. Some information, no matter how convincing, is simply not true.

Years ago I read a Time magazine article that reported the discovery of a letter, supposedly written by Martin Harris, that conflicted with Joseph Smith’s account of finding the Book of Mormon plates.¹⁴

A few members left the Church because of the document.¹⁵

Sadly, they left too quickly. Months later experts discovered (and the forger confessed) that the letter was a complete deception.¹⁶ You may understandably question what you hear on the news, but you need never doubt the testimony of God’s prophets.

We might remind the inquirer that some information about Joseph, while true, may be presented completely out of context to his own day and situation.

 

Neither explicitly say don't read anti Mormon stuff but they certainly do disparage and essentially say you cannot trust anything critical that you read about the Church on the internet.

[Zakuska]

[filovirus]

Does anyone know if the church is going to have Church History curriculum that does address the lesser known history of the church? Sure we have the church essays, which is a good start, but they are not part of any curriculum. The problem is when people want to know more, they search the internet and it can bring them to some anti sites. Poor interpretation of the facts can lead people to losing faith. And I don't think the number of Joseph Smith's wives will ever come up in GC.

What I am saying is that members are going to go to the internet for answers, and if not careful, all they will find is people disparaging the church rather than defending the church. It's like the "facebook" recommends system, it may only show one side of the story.

And I agree, we aren't told not to search the internet, but rather to know that "divine truth" doesn't spring up from the internet but comes through other means.

[Calm]

Gospel Topic essays are intended to be used with curriculum and missionary work as well as personal study, according to one of the videos introducing them (been awhile since I watched them so can't remember which).  As an example, seminary or institute is using a couple of them this year, iirc.

[consiglieri]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes Sir! 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?lang=eng

And another by Elder Andersen in another conference:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith?lang=eng

Neither explicitly say don't read anti Mormon stuff but they certainly do disparage and essentially say you cannot trust anything critical that you read about the Church on the internet.

Nice work, Teancum.

I think we're up to six GC talks that disparage the use of the Internet to find out about Mormonism.