Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[bluebell]

Jesus taught to repudiate a parent if the parent is not living a certain standard?

Yes, Jesus taught that the gospel would sometimes separate families, and that anyone who would not choose the gospel over family was not fit for His kingdom.

[The Nehor]

Front the article:Natural or adopted children living in a same-sex household will only be allowed to be baptized once they are 18, disavow the practice of same-sex cohabitation or marriage, and stop living within the household, according to the policy. Such baptism would still require the approval of the church's governing First Presidency.

 

Yeah, the concept is familiar. It is how we deal with children of polygamists. Why up in arms now?

 

So much for the 2nd Article of Faith:

 

If you feel so strongly about a minor's right to be baptized why do you step in now and not for the children of polygamists who have endured this standard for decades?

[cynth]

Not at all what the title implies but the policy makes sense.

It's not at all uncommon for children to be required to wait until they are 18 to be baptized

 

No, it is the opposite imo. It allows them to not agonize over whether or not to be baptized until they are old enough to handle the family dynamics because they are more independent, emotionally mature, etc.

So does the church also have a policy to not allow children whose parents belong to other religions to be baptized until age 18?  does the church not baptize children of unwed parents?  If this is the policy, it should be consistent.

[Damien the Leper]

When minors and in their care most definitely.

And they shouldn't be placed in the difficult posotion of feeling they have to choose.

I've seen it happen in families where one parent is a believer and one is not (in one case the nonbeliever used it to blackmail the believer into letting him out of child support) or a grandparent manipulates the situation without parental consent (by lying to the bishop though hopefully these days the bishops are aware of the rules, it is just horrible for the kid.

Family over the church always and forever.

[Robert F. Smith]

So this essentially tells a child to repudiate their parents in order to be baptized, What a lovely thing.

Parents would presumably respect their children's decision at age 18.  Or don't you think that adults should make their own decisions on whether to be baptized?  It is repudiation only for control freaks.

[Teancum]

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 46He was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him.

47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 47 47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 47Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You."

48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 48But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 48But He replied to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 49And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!

50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” 50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/12.htm

there has been a lot of family shunning as a result of families over applying these verses. Edited November 6, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

Yes, Jesus taught that the gospel would sometimes separate families, and that anyone who would not choose the gospel over family was not fit for His kingdom.

Yea I know the verses, not one of Jesus's better teachings.

[cynth]

The upside of this is no children of SS marriages will become Mormon in their childhoods.  They will be able to choose at an adult age whether to join a church that requires them to consider their parents as degenerate sinners. 

[bluebell]

The upside of this is no children of SS marriages will become Mormon in their childhoods. They will be able to choose at an adult age whether to join a church that requires them to consider their parents as degenerate sinners.

Exactly. That's a very good thing.

[bluebell]

Double post.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bluebell

[Calm]

So does the church also have a policy to not allow children whose parents belong to other religions to be baptized until age 18?  does the church not baptize children of unwed parents?  If this is the policy, it should be consistent.

Having different beliefs is not defined as a sin so I don't see it as being inconsistent, though the Church does have a policy of not allowing baptisms unless the parents give permission iirc.  I am pretty sure missionaries are not to teach under age minors without parents' permission.

 

Unwed parents...don't know.  I do think this probably would be a good idea if the child was living with or at times with parents or parent who were unwed and cohabitating.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Calm

[Teancum]

Yeah, the concept is familiar. It is how we deal with children of polygamists. Why up in arms now?

 

 

If you feel so strongly about a minor's right to be baptized why do you step in now and not for the children of polygamists who have endured this standard for decades?

Pretty ironic that this applies to children of polygamist families as well. Still as bad in my opinion. Why make person repudiate their parents to be baptized? The child of such parents is making their own stand and should be judged the same as anyone else. Does a child of an adulterer need repudiate a parent? How about a child of a single mother who was never married?

[cynth]

Parents would presumably respect their children's decision at age 18.  Or don't you think that adults should make their own decisions on whether to be baptized?  It is repudiation only for control freaks.

No, it is repudiation of their parents as required by the church at age 18.  And yes, I think adult children should make their own decisions, and I predict they will choose family over this bizarre policy every time.

[bluebell]

Yea I know the verses, not one of Jesus's better teachings.

We are supposed to put God first. You can't fault the church for trying to help people do that. You can disagree with them about what God wants, but not that what He wants has to be more important than what our parents want (again, as adults).

[Hamba Tuhan]

It would appear to be accurate.

[Calm]

there has been a lot of family shunning as a result in families over applying these verses.

I definitely think it can go too far.  My niece was told by her father that he would rather have her to be husband rape her than baptize her LDS.

 

Overtime the parents have softened, I understand, and have a good relationship now.

 

If it happens among LDS, this is wrong imo, but family love also shouldn't be used to emotionally blackmail someone into having to hide their beliefs about sin (whether something is or is not a sin in their view).  I have seen it happening a lot lately when one ot two family member has a more traditional view and other family members are telling them they are haters or get up and walk out when opinions are being shared even when the more traditional ones are willing to give the less traditional family members their attention and respect in their opinions.  Probably in the past it happened much more in the reverse (the less traditional family members were shut down), but it seems to have shifted around the families I have interacted with (and this in Utah among other places).

Edited November 6, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

Yea I know the verses, not one of Jesus's better teachings.

Guess you need to discuss that with Jesus.  

[Teancum]

Parents would presumably respect their children's decision at age 18. Or don't you think that adults should make their own decisions on whether to be baptized? It is repudiation only for control freaks.

I totally support adults right to make their own decisions. The requirement to declare a rejection of what their parents are not so much.

I thought church leaders have said a member can personally support same sex marriage as long as they don't publicly rail against the church leaders.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Teancum

[The Nehor]

Yea I know the verses, not one of Jesus's better teachings.

 

Make sure to make a note of that and bring it up at the Judgment Bar. I am sure constructive criticism will receive all due consideration.

[Kenngo1969]

So this essentially tells a child to repudiate their parents in order to be baptized, What a lovely thing.

See Calmoriah's #6 and Bluebell's #7.

[Teancum]

Having different beliefs is not defined as a sin so I don't see it as being inconsistent, though the Church does have a policy of not allowing baptisms unless the parents give permission iirc.  I am pretty sure missionaries are not to teach under age minors without parents' permission.

 

Unwed parents...don't know.  I do think this probably would be a good idea if the child was living with or at times with parents or parent who were unwed and cohabitating.

The church allows minor children of unwed heterosexuals to be blessed and baptized.

[The Nehor]

The upside of this is no children of SS marriages will become Mormon in their childhoods.  They will be able to choose at an adult age whether to join a church that requires them to consider their parents as degenerate sinners. 

 

Indeed, though if they have accepted the gospel and seek baptism they will have to recognize that all are degenerate sinners. They just have to be clear on a specific sin their parent is involved in and seek to avoid it themselves.

 

No, it is repudiation of their parents as required by the church at age 18.  And yes, I think adult children should make their own decisions, and I predict they will choose family over this bizarre policy every time.

 

Probably, most people will not join the church in this life.

 

 

I totally support adults right to make their own decisions. The requirement to declare a rejection of what their parents are not so much.

I thought church leaders have said a member can personally support same sex marriage as long as they don't publicly rail against the church leaders.

 

They can, they can support its legality as wise. Campaigning that it is virtuous or unsinful....there you get into trouble.

 

In the same way you can support marijuana legalization as a wise policy move but using it yourself violates the Word of Wisdom and will probably cost you your temple recommend.

[The Nehor]

The church allows minor children of unwed heterosexuals to be blessed and baptized.

 

Yes it does. Probably for the same reason Jesus said Moses allowed for divorce, our weakness.

[Teancum]

We are supposed to put God first. You can't fault the church for trying to help people do that. You can disagree with them about what God wants, but not that what He wants has to be more important than what our parents want (again, as adults).

That presupposes that those who are telling us what God wants is really what God wants.

[Thinking]

If you feel so strongly about a minor's right to be baptized why do you step in now and not for the children of polygamists who have endured this standard for decades?

 

1. This thread is about the children of same-sex couples.

2. I didn't know that the children of polygamists couldn't be baptized.

3. What I feel strongly about is the LDS Church's policy that holds a child responsible for the sins of its parents.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Thinking