Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[Duncan]

This is my life. My 12 yr old is unbaptized because his Mom won't allow him to be. He wants to be and pass sacrament and things but he can't. Unless she gives consent , which she hasn't, he can't do anything and it is really hard on him and me as a result.I tell him Jesus knows he wants to be and he'll be blessed as a result.

[Teancum]

Guess you need to discuss that with Jesus.  

I talk to God and Jesus about such things all the time. :-)

It also supposes those who wrote this in the NT really got it right.

[Teancum]

Make sure to make a note of that and bring it up at the Judgment Bar. I am sure constructive criticism will receive all due consideration.

I plan on it.

[Teancum]

Yes it does. Probably for the same reason Jesus said Moses allowed for divorce, our weakness.

So the church views adultery, fornication and cohabitation of unwed heterosexuals as less serious a sin than married homosexuals .

[The Nehor]

1. This thread is about the children of same-sex couples.

2. I didn't know that the children of polygamists couldn't be baptized.

3. What I feel strongly about is the LDS Church's policy that holds a child responsible for the sins of its parents.

 

1. Indeed it is but comparisons are valid.

2. Now you know. Go forth and crusade on this point as well.

 

As to 3:

 

No. Just no. Restricting a child from something is not punishing them for the sins of their parents. It is done for the same reason we do not baptize minor children of polygamous parents. It puts the children in a very difficult situation. Suddenly they have to choose between family and gospel at a very young age. An 8 year old should not have to deal with being taught one thing at church and seeing it blatantly disregarded at home.

 

The most I will say is that the sins of the parents temporarily impede the progress of their child and they should probably stop but that is normal. It happens all the time and God can heal those wounds in his own time. And yes, I would say unwed parents are causing a similar, though lesser, degree of damage.

[cynth]

Nehor says: "Probably, most people will not join the church in this life."

 

To which I say, if we are doing world-wide stats, you do realize that 'most people' consider 'the church' to be the Catholic Church, right?  Widen your horizons, young Nehor.

[The Nehor]

So the church views adultery, fornication and cohabitation of unwed heterosexuals as less serious a sin than married homosexuals .

 

I have no idea but the church has at least for now decided that the latter can have a more damaging effect on children who are seeking to the live the gospel.

[Duncan]

Assuming the document is accurate, this is not the only amendment to the Handbook:

 

 

I can't imagine there would be that many people in that boat. I knew of one or two people that their folks came out of the closet, while their kid was on a mission, but it seems rare.

[The Nehor]

Nehor says: "Probably, most people will not join the church in this life."

 

To which I say, if we are doing world-wide stats, you do realize that 'most people' consider 'the church' to be the Catholic Church, right?  Widen your horizons, young Nehor.

 

Yes, but location matters. See that banner at the top of the webpage? It suggests that we might be focusing more exclusively on one particular faith and in this context that faith would be the one assumed when talking about "the church".

 

If I was doing this on a reddit thread about the paleo diet or something religiously neutral you might have a point. You don't here.

[Teancum]

1. Indeed it is but comparisons are valid.

2. Now you know. Go forth and crusade on this point as well.

 

As to 3:

 

No. Just no. Restricting a child from something is not punishing them for the sins of their parents. It is done for the same reason we do not baptize minor children of polygamous parents. It puts the children in a very difficult situation. Suddenly they have to choose between family and gospel at a very young age. An 8 year old should not have to deal with being taught one thing at church and seeing it blatantly disregarded at home.

 

The most I will say is that the sins of the parents temporarily impede the progress of their child and they should probably stop but that is normal. It happens all the time and God can heal those wounds in his own time. And yes, I would say unwed parents are causing a similar, though lesser, degree of damage.

I have no issue with children of gay parents who are married waiting until 18 to be baptized. A church as hostile towards gay marriage ought not have children of gay couple as members. but this extra requirement repudiating their parents lifestyle I do not agree with.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Anyone know if there is a splinter-group out there that still believes in Joseph Smith's calling and the Book Of Mormon and uncreated material intelligences and divine anthropomorphism and Temples and the law of consecration, but doesn't have all this blatant homophobia and anti-feminism and tribalistic family-splitting nonsense? Because that's the Church I want to belong to. I mean, not like anyone would care if I was gone from this one (to say the least), but stuff like this just makes me want out. I know, I know, good riddance to all of us neo-orthodox heretics. I guess I should sleep on it before seeing myself to the door.  

[cynth]

Yes, but location matters. See that banner at the top of the webpage? It suggests that we might be focusing more exclusively on one particular faith and in this context that faith would be the one assumed when talking about "the church".

 

If I was doing this on a reddit thread about the paleo diet or something religiously neutral you might have a point. You don't here.

Then correct your original statement.  You said 'most people,' with no restriction to 'most people who read this forum,' or 'most people who are members of this tiny little off-shoot.'

Follow your own rules, young Nehor.

Edited November 6, 2015 by cynth

[Teancum]

I have no idea but the church has at least for now decided that the latter can have a more damaging effect on children who are seeking to the live the gospel.

Clearly it ranks heterosexuals cohabitators outside of marriage as less a sin then gay married couples.

[Robert F. Smith]

.................................................................

3. What I feel strongly about is the LDS Church's policy that holds a child responsible for the sins of its parents.

False doctrine.  The LDS Church does no such thing.

[bluebell]

That presupposes that those who are telling us what God wants is really what God wants.

Well, duh.

[Teancum]

Anyone know if there is a splinter-group out there that still believes in Joseph Smith's calling and the Book Of Mormon and uncreated material intelligences and divine anthropomorphism and Temples and the law of consecration, but doesn't have all this blatant homophobia and anti-feminism and tribalistic family-splitting nonsense? Because that's the Church I want to belong to. I mean, not like anyone would care if I was gone from this one (to say the least), but stuff like this just makes me want out. I know, I know, good riddance to all of us neo-orthodox heretics. I guess I should sleep on it before seeing myself to the door.

The Community of Christ....sort of.

[Russell C McGregor]

"As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender." -Elder Cook

And the connection is...?

#fail

#false

[Russell C McGregor]

So much for the 2nd Article of Faith:

And the problem is...?

[The Nehor]

I have no issue with children of gay parents who are married waiting until 18 to be baptized. A church as hostile towards gay marriage ought not have children of gay couple as members. but this extra requirement repudiating their parents lifestyle I do not agree with.

 

Welp, my only advice is:

 

 

Then correct your original statement.  You said 'most people,' with no restriction to 'most people who read this forum,' or 'most people who are members of this tiny little off-shoot.'

Follow your own rules, young Nehor.

 

I meant "most people" in the general sense and stand by it.

 

Clearly it ranks heterosexuals cohabitators outside of marriage as less a sin then gay married couples.

 

Nope, and other then the clearly delineated sins of sinning against the Holy Ghost and murder we do not make a habit of ranking sins.

 

Why do you have to make this about the parents? It is about not dividing the loyalties of children when they are young? Are you saying we should ignore them and try to coddle the adult homosexual parents who for some reason want their child in the LDS church and aren't allowed to have them there who have an inferiority complex about where their sins fall on the LDS Spectrum Of Sins (or SOS)?

[Russell C McGregor]

Pretty ironic that this applies to children of polygamist families as well. Still as bad in my opinion. Why make person repudiate their parents to be baptized? The child of such parents is making their own stand and should be judged the same as anyone else. Does a child of an adulterer need repudiate a parent? How about a child of a single mother who was never married?

False. 

 

No, it is repudiation of their parents as required by the church at age 18.  And yes, I think adult children should make their own decisions, and I predict they will choose family over this bizarre policy every time.

False.

They are repudiating actions, not parents.

And as a matter of fact, they are repudiating the actions of only one parent.

Given that no child has ever been born the biological offspring of a same sex couple.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

I have no issue with children of gay parents who are married waiting until 18 to be baptized. A church as hostile towards gay marriage ought not have children of gay couple as members. but this extra requirement repudiating their parents lifestyle I do not agree with.

I don't see the LDS faith as hostile to gay, transgender, or polygamous marriage/parents.  I like everybody, and so do the leaders of my Church.  However, the church as an organized entity has rules and they require obedience to a holy lifestyle to maintain membership.  The Church is in fact quite gracious and civil toward people from other lifestyles and even insists on equal access of those outside the pale to public accommodations, housing, and jobs.  Tolerance is not hostility.  Just because I do not want to adopt a gay or polygamous lifestyle does not mean that I am unkind or unfriendly to those who practice such lifestyles.  However, I do not promote such behavior either.  Get it, Teancum?!

[cynth]

I have no idea but the church has at least for now decided that the latter can have a more damaging effect on children who are seeking to the live the gospel.

That is fascinating.  A stable marriage is more damaging than adultery, fornication and cohabitation, simply because of gender.  As long as your parents are one female/one male, they can be felons, murderers, liars, pedophiles, abusers, apostates, etc.  All parental sins are acceptable to the Mormon church in terms of childhood baptism, as long as the parents are one each of male and female.

[Russell C McGregor]

1. This thread is about the children of same-sex couples.

2. I didn't know that the children of polygamists couldn't be baptized.

3. What I feel strongly about is the LDS Church's policy that holds a child responsible for the sins of its parents.

 

The policy does no such thing.

 

No. Such. Thing.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Community of Christ....sort of.

Actually, not.

[Robert F. Smith]

That is fascinating.  A stable marriage is more damaging than adultery, fornication and cohabitation, simply because of gender.  As long as your parents are one female/one male, they can be felons, murderers, liars, pedophiles, abusers, apostates, etc.  All parental sins are acceptable to the Mormon church in terms of childhood baptism, as long as the parents are one each of male and female.

And I am sure that you can cite plenty of instances of each horrible circumstance to support your tirade.